shipperx: (Spangel - Soul Men)
[livejournal.com profile] sueworld2003 has posted responses that the new(?) editor to the Angel comics gave to some buffyforum questions. I wasn't particularly perturbed by her answers regarding Spuffy. First, because she came off as being relatively level-headed in response to the obviously Bangel-oriented somewhat pushy interviewer. Second, because I do not believe that there will be any crossover until such time as Joss is cravenly desperate for attention and/or readers and perhaps not even then. For that reason I find the ship debate to be moot. I was interested in some of her responses regarding Spike though. Specifically:

Buffyfest: I think getting his own story was way overdue. It always felt like he was vying for attention in someone else's series

Mariah Huehner: Which he sort of is, really. He's always second fiddle to Angel, because of the Shanshu. Although Spike's motives as a "hero" are less ambivalent than Angel's, which I find interesting.

Buffyfest: What do you think motivates Spike to be the hero?

Mariah Huehner: Earning his soul, I think. He didn't have it forced on him, he fought for it. Even when he was evil, he sought it out.

Buffyfest: Do you think he feels that he always has to be earning it? That he has to fight for justice or else what's the point of having gotten the soul at all?

Mariah Huehner: Sometimes. But I also think Spike, once he got over the crazy basement phase, understood that he'd chosen this, so he had to live up to it. He doesn't dwell on it the way Angel does.


I gather, in a third hand sort of way, that there has been debate about this. It's not a particularly new or revolutionary POV. I believe that Joss and David Fury have expressed similar views about this at one point or another, and I remember [livejournal.com profile] thedeadlyhook pointing out in an essay a long time ago that, while Spike may lose style points for the way that he does it, since acquiring his soul, he became remarkably consistent about being on the side of the right (albeit, Mutant Enemy never seemed to tire of the "will Spike go evil?" fake-out).

What tends to surprise me, however, are some of the fannish debates that go on. There is a line of thought that somehow Spike's characterization/struggle threatens or lessens Angel's. It almost inevitably descends into a "my vamp" vs. "your vamp" wars.

Why is it always placed in a context of wondering which vamp has the most trump cards?

It seems to me that most of the contrasts between Spike and Angel don't come out of trying to have one vamp have an 'up' on the other one, but out of the necessity for their own character construction and evolution.

Angel was 'cursed' with his soul. From a writing standpoint, that has to mean something (and character-wise that extends further than creating a Big Bad for Season 2). For Angel that has to mean something. If a writer creates a curse, it needs to chafe the character. If the character is a titular hero, he cannot be chaffed by the concept of heroism in itself. The friction then inevitably becomes conflict over his heroism. Basically, from a writing POV, from the need of friction for drama, it makes perfect sense that one of Angel's points of conflict be that his soul was forced on him and that Angelus (as opposed to Angel) doesn't want it.

Angel was, more or less, introduced as a heroic character (Well, mostly. In season 1 he had periods of passivity, but he was consistently one of the 'good guys.') When layering heroes, you're usually presenting (excusable) flaws. So in contrast to hero-Angel, we get Liam flashbacks and a 'see how much he's grown from who he was.' Angel evolved organically from the place he was introduced. He was given flaws and internal conflict. It makes sense that the soul -- which is a curse -- should be a source of conflict for him.

Spike began in a polar opposite position. He was the bad-guy. When showing 'good guy' Angel's background there was conflict in showing him as not-particularly-nice Liam. By the same token, when showing 'cool bad guy' Spike, they contrasted with 'not-at-all-cool, just geeky and heartbroken' William. Both sets of choices in characterization are, at least partially, products of how each character was initially introduced and what presented a good way to stretch them with a few internal contradictions.

The titular hero had the soul forced on him. This leads to internal conflict whenever he is given trust, accolades, or love (as tends to be given to heroes).

Spike is the one who sought his own soul but is rarely given trust, never given accolades, and who tends to find love and acceptance to be elusive.

This isn't a matter of either/or or what makes one vamp better than the other. It's a matter of writers needing to build a character over a long period time in a serialized story. They each started in one place and the writing needed to provide contrast, internal conflict, and an elusive goal. Spike's development isn't following the path of Angel's. Spike's path isn't a result of Angel's. In many -- if not most -- ways Spike is completely opposite Angel... which is why the two characters actually function quite nicely together.

But, at the end of the day, I think both characters came by their paths (and their characterizations) organically (for the most part). It's not constant brinkmanship where only one character can win best in show...or 'best' period. People don't work that way, why should characters?
shipperx: (Spangel - Soul Men)
[livejournal.com profile] sueworld2003 has posted responses that the new(?) editor to the Angel comics gave to some buffyforum questions. I wasn't particularly perturbed by her answers regarding Spuffy. First, because she came off as being relatively level-headed in response to the obviously Bangel-oriented somewhat pushy interviewer. Second, because I do not believe that there will be any crossover until such time as Joss is cravenly desperate for attention and/or readers and perhaps not even then. For that reason I find the ship debate to be moot. I was interested in some of her responses regarding Spike though. Specifically:

Buffyfest: I think getting his own story was way overdue. It always felt like he was vying for attention in someone else's series

Mariah Huehner: Which he sort of is, really. He's always second fiddle to Angel, because of the Shanshu. Although Spike's motives as a "hero" are less ambivalent than Angel's, which I find interesting.

Buffyfest: What do you think motivates Spike to be the hero?

Mariah Huehner: Earning his soul, I think. He didn't have it forced on him, he fought for it. Even when he was evil, he sought it out.

Buffyfest: Do you think he feels that he always has to be earning it? That he has to fight for justice or else what's the point of having gotten the soul at all?

Mariah Huehner: Sometimes. But I also think Spike, once he got over the crazy basement phase, understood that he'd chosen this, so he had to live up to it. He doesn't dwell on it the way Angel does.


I gather, in a third hand sort of way, that there has been debate about this. It's not a particularly new or revolutionary POV. I believe that Joss and David Fury have expressed similar views about this at one point or another, and I remember [livejournal.com profile] thedeadlyhook pointing out in an essay a long time ago that, while Spike may lose style points for the way that he does it, since acquiring his soul, he became remarkably consistent about being on the side of the right (albeit, Mutant Enemy never seemed to tire of the "will Spike go evil?" fake-out).

What tends to surprise me, however, are some of the fannish debates that go on. There is a line of thought that somehow Spike's characterization/struggle threatens or lessens Angel's. It almost inevitably descends into a "my vamp" vs. "your vamp" wars.

Why is it always placed in a context of wondering which vamp has the most trump cards?

It seems to me that most of the contrasts between Spike and Angel don't come out of trying to have one vamp have an 'up' on the other one, but out of the necessity for their own character construction and evolution.

Angel was 'cursed' with his soul. From a writing standpoint, that has to mean something (and character-wise that extends further than creating a Big Bad for Season 2). For Angel that has to mean something. If a writer creates a curse, it needs to chafe the character. If the character is a titular hero, he cannot be chaffed by the concept of heroism in itself. The friction then inevitably becomes conflict over his heroism. Basically, from a writing POV, from the need of friction for drama, it makes perfect sense that one of Angel's points of conflict be that his soul was forced on him and that Angelus (as opposed to Angel) doesn't want it.

Angel was, more or less, introduced as a heroic character (Well, mostly. In season 1 he had periods of passivity, but he was consistently one of the 'good guys.') When layering heroes, you're usually presenting (excusable) flaws. So in contrast to hero-Angel, we get Liam flashbacks and a 'see how much he's grown from who he was.' Angel evolved organically from the place he was introduced. He was given flaws and internal conflict. It makes sense that the soul -- which is a curse -- should be a source of conflict for him.

Spike began in a polar opposite position. He was the bad-guy. When showing 'good guy' Angel's background there was conflict in showing him as not-particularly-nice Liam. By the same token, when showing 'cool bad guy' Spike, they contrasted with 'not-at-all-cool, just geeky and heartbroken' William. Both sets of choices in characterization are, at least partially, products of how each character was initially introduced and what presented a good way to stretch them with a few internal contradictions.

The titular hero had the soul forced on him. This leads to internal conflict whenever he is given trust, accolades, or love (as tends to be given to heroes).

Spike is the one who sought his own soul but is rarely given trust, never given accolades, and who tends to find love and acceptance to be elusive.

This isn't a matter of either/or or what makes one vamp better than the other. It's a matter of writers needing to build a character over a long period time in a serialized story. They each started in one place and the writing needed to provide contrast, internal conflict, and an elusive goal. Spike's development isn't following the path of Angel's. Spike's path isn't a result of Angel's. In many -- if not most -- ways Spike is completely opposite Angel... which is why the two characters actually function quite nicely together.

But, at the end of the day, I think both characters came by their paths (and their characterizations) organically (for the most part). It's not constant brinkmanship where only one character can win best in show...or 'best' period. People don't work that way, why should characters?
shipperx: (Spangel - Soul Men)
[livejournal.com profile] sueworld2003 has posted responses that the new(?) editor to the Angel comics gave to some buffyforum questions. I wasn't particularly perturbed by her answers regarding Spuffy. First, because she came off as being relatively level-headed in response to the obviously Bangel-oriented somewhat pushy interviewer. Second, because I do not believe that there will be any crossover until such time as Joss is cravenly desperate for attention and/or readers and perhaps not even then. For that reason I find the ship debate to be moot. I was interested in some of her responses regarding Spike though. Specifically:

Buffyfest: I think getting his own story was way overdue. It always felt like he was vying for attention in someone else's series

Mariah Huehner: Which he sort of is, really. He's always second fiddle to Angel, because of the Shanshu. Although Spike's motives as a "hero" are less ambivalent than Angel's, which I find interesting.

Buffyfest: What do you think motivates Spike to be the hero?

Mariah Huehner: Earning his soul, I think. He didn't have it forced on him, he fought for it. Even when he was evil, he sought it out.

Buffyfest: Do you think he feels that he always has to be earning it? That he has to fight for justice or else what's the point of having gotten the soul at all?

Mariah Huehner: Sometimes. But I also think Spike, once he got over the crazy basement phase, understood that he'd chosen this, so he had to live up to it. He doesn't dwell on it the way Angel does.


I gather, in a third hand sort of way, that there has been debate about this. It's not a particularly new or revolutionary POV. I believe that Joss and David Fury have expressed similar views about this at one point or another, and I remember [livejournal.com profile] thedeadlyhook pointing out in an essay a long time ago that, while Spike may lose style points for the way that he does it, since acquiring his soul, he became remarkably consistent about being on the side of the right (albeit, Mutant Enemy never seemed to tire of the "will Spike go evil?" fake-out).

What tends to surprise me, however, are some of the fannish debates that go on. There is a line of thought that somehow Spike's characterization/struggle threatens or lessens Angel's. It almost inevitably descends into a "my vamp" vs. "your vamp" wars.

Why is it always placed in a context of wondering which vamp has the most trump cards?

It seems to me that most of the contrasts between Spike and Angel don't come out of trying to have one vamp have an 'up' on the other one, but out of the necessity for their own character construction and evolution.

Angel was 'cursed' with his soul. From a writing standpoint, that has to mean something (and character-wise that extends further than creating a Big Bad for Season 2). For Angel that has to mean something. If a writer creates a curse, it needs to chafe the character. If the character is a titular hero, he cannot be chaffed by the concept of heroism in itself. The friction then inevitably becomes conflict over his heroism. Basically, from a writing POV, from the need of friction for drama, it makes perfect sense that one of Angel's points of conflict be that his soul was forced on him and that Angelus (as opposed to Angel) doesn't want it.

Angel was, more or less, introduced as a heroic character (Well, mostly. In season 1 he had periods of passivity, but he was consistently one of the 'good guys.') When layering heroes, you're usually presenting (excusable) flaws. So in contrast to hero-Angel, we get Liam flashbacks and a 'see how much he's grown from who he was.' Angel evolved organically from the place he was introduced. He was given flaws and internal conflict. It makes sense that the soul -- which is a curse -- should be a source of conflict for him.

Spike began in a polar opposite position. He was the bad-guy. When showing 'good guy' Angel's background there was conflict in showing him as not-particularly-nice Liam. By the same token, when showing 'cool bad guy' Spike, they contrasted with 'not-at-all-cool, just geeky and heartbroken' William. Both sets of choices in characterization are, at least partially, products of how each character was initially introduced and what presented a good way to stretch them with a few internal contradictions.

The titular hero had the soul forced on him. This leads to internal conflict whenever he is given trust, accolades, or love (as tends to be given to heroes).

Spike is the one who sought his own soul but is rarely given trust, never given accolades, and who tends to find love and acceptance to be elusive.

This isn't a matter of either/or or what makes one vamp better than the other. It's a matter of writers needing to build a character over a long period time in a serialized story. They each started in one place and the writing needed to provide contrast, internal conflict, and an elusive goal. Spike's development isn't following the path of Angel's. Spike's path isn't a result of Angel's. In many -- if not most -- ways Spike is completely opposite Angel... which is why the two characters actually function quite nicely together.

But, at the end of the day, I think both characters came by their paths (and their characterizations) organically (for the most part). It's not constant brinkmanship where only one character can win best in show...or 'best' period. People don't work that way, why should characters?
shipperx: (Spangel - Soul Men)
Poking around some comments about and summaries of the current volume of BtVS Season 8, I've shocked myself and found that I have something to say about the BtVS comic.

First, I've enjoyed Brian Lynch's "Angel:After the Fall" and "Spike:After the Fall". I have quibbles, but they aren't particularly important because there are aspects of the stories that intrigue me and moments that move me. I liked Spike's relationship with Jeremy, and I liked the way Spike:AtF informed the character. And I've particularly liked Gunn's and Fredlyria's plot in AtF. So, while I have quibbles with this, that, and the other, mostly I think it's a good addition to the characters that I've loved.

BtVS Season 8, on the other hand... my reactions have ranged from 'paralyzed with not caring' to 'wow, it really is crack!fic!'

And, just to clarify, my reactions aren't tinged with outrage or disappointment because I'm paralyzed with not caring it's just not canon to me. I know, Joss is in control of it so technically it's supposed to be filed as canon. But knowing something doesn't necessarily change how I feel.

I suppose it could be the change in medium. If it feels different, it is different. So, while I like AtF, I don't find myself feeling about it the same way that I felt show canon. Because of this, the comics automatically file themselves in the same corner of my head as fanfic. It may be (or in some instances in BtVS Season 8, may not be) interesting, and I might even wish to play with it someday. But it's simply a different beast than the show.

I only state these things to explain that I'm not reacting to the BtVS comic because I either like or dislike it. It's not very important to me, which is why it surprised me that, while poking around in summaries and comments about the comic, I found myself with an urge to post about it. What I wanted to say was -- don't expect Joss to plug the plot holes.

Thoughts on Joss )


Speaking of Neil Gaiman, I did finish "The Graveyard Book" prior to the holidays and quite enjoyed it. That said, I thought the ending was odd in its timing. Prior to the final chapter I almost thought that he was setting up some sort of sequel where Bod is destined for something, possibly that he'd end up doing something quest-like with Silas, but then in the last chapter it seems to abruptly come to an end. I know that doesn't preclude a sequel, but it didn't particularly imply one either and cut for spoilers )
shipperx: (Spangel - Soul Men)
Poking around some comments about and summaries of the current volume of BtVS Season 8, I've shocked myself and found that I have something to say about the BtVS comic.

First, I've enjoyed Brian Lynch's "Angel:After the Fall" and "Spike:After the Fall". I have quibbles, but they aren't particularly important because there are aspects of the stories that intrigue me and moments that move me. I liked Spike's relationship with Jeremy, and I liked the way Spike:AtF informed the character. And I've particularly liked Gunn's and Fredlyria's plot in AtF. So, while I have quibbles with this, that, and the other, mostly I think it's a good addition to the characters that I've loved.

BtVS Season 8, on the other hand... my reactions have ranged from 'paralyzed with not caring' to 'wow, it really is crack!fic!'

And, just to clarify, my reactions aren't tinged with outrage or disappointment because I'm paralyzed with not caring it's just not canon to me. I know, Joss is in control of it so technically it's supposed to be filed as canon. But knowing something doesn't necessarily change how I feel.

I suppose it could be the change in medium. If it feels different, it is different. So, while I like AtF, I don't find myself feeling about it the same way that I felt show canon. Because of this, the comics automatically file themselves in the same corner of my head as fanfic. It may be (or in some instances in BtVS Season 8, may not be) interesting, and I might even wish to play with it someday. But it's simply a different beast than the show.

I only state these things to explain that I'm not reacting to the BtVS comic because I either like or dislike it. It's not very important to me, which is why it surprised me that, while poking around in summaries and comments about the comic, I found myself with an urge to post about it. What I wanted to say was -- don't expect Joss to plug the plot holes.

Thoughts on Joss )


Speaking of Neil Gaiman, I did finish "The Graveyard Book" prior to the holidays and quite enjoyed it. That said, I thought the ending was odd in its timing. Prior to the final chapter I almost thought that he was setting up some sort of sequel where Bod is destined for something, possibly that he'd end up doing something quest-like with Silas, but then in the last chapter it seems to abruptly come to an end. I know that doesn't preclude a sequel, but it didn't particularly imply one either and cut for spoilers )
shipperx: (Spangel - Soul Men)
Poking around some comments about and summaries of the current volume of BtVS Season 8, I've shocked myself and found that I have something to say about the BtVS comic.

First, I've enjoyed Brian Lynch's "Angel:After the Fall" and "Spike:After the Fall". I have quibbles, but they aren't particularly important because there are aspects of the stories that intrigue me and moments that move me. I liked Spike's relationship with Jeremy, and I liked the way Spike:AtF informed the character. And I've particularly liked Gunn's and Fredlyria's plot in AtF. So, while I have quibbles with this, that, and the other, mostly I think it's a good addition to the characters that I've loved.

BtVS Season 8, on the other hand... my reactions have ranged from 'paralyzed with not caring' to 'wow, it really is crack!fic!'

And, just to clarify, my reactions aren't tinged with outrage or disappointment because I'm paralyzed with not caring it's just not canon to me. I know, Joss is in control of it so technically it's supposed to be filed as canon. But knowing something doesn't necessarily change how I feel.

I suppose it could be the change in medium. If it feels different, it is different. So, while I like AtF, I don't find myself feeling about it the same way that I felt show canon. Because of this, the comics automatically file themselves in the same corner of my head as fanfic. It may be (or in some instances in BtVS Season 8, may not be) interesting, and I might even wish to play with it someday. But it's simply a different beast than the show.

I only state these things to explain that I'm not reacting to the BtVS comic because I either like or dislike it. It's not very important to me, which is why it surprised me that, while poking around in summaries and comments about the comic, I found myself with an urge to post about it. What I wanted to say was -- don't expect Joss to plug the plot holes.

Thoughts on Joss )


Speaking of Neil Gaiman, I did finish "The Graveyard Book" prior to the holidays and quite enjoyed it. That said, I thought the ending was odd in its timing. Prior to the final chapter I almost thought that he was setting up some sort of sequel where Bod is destined for something, possibly that he'd end up doing something quest-like with Silas, but then in the last chapter it seems to abruptly come to an end. I know that doesn't preclude a sequel, but it didn't particularly imply one either and cut for spoilers )
shipperx: (Spike - broken little poet)
For fanfic writing purposes, I'm rewatching BtVS Season 7's "Lies My Parents Told Me". Frankly, it has been ages since I've seen the episode. Things which caught my eye... )
shipperx: (Spike - broken little poet)
For fanfic writing purposes, I'm rewatching BtVS Season 7's "Lies My Parents Told Me". Frankly, it has been ages since I've seen the episode. Things which caught my eye... )
shipperx: (Spike - broken little poet)
For fanfic writing purposes, I'm rewatching BtVS Season 7's "Lies My Parents Told Me". Frankly, it has been ages since I've seen the episode. Things which caught my eye... )

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