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Apologies Can Be Overrated
I suppose fiction makes us believe that all things need resolutions, but why?
Why do all fictional relationships need to be resolved?
And why must 'redemption' hinge on offering a sincere apology to some nemesis?
There are situations where there's really no compelling reason why characters should like one another, and there's no compelling story reason why the characters should.
These issues brought to you by ongoing debates on Capt. Hook/Rumplestilskin/Belle on "Once Upon a Time" and Spike/Wood discussion on Buffyforums.
There was a multi-day discussion of whether Capt. Hook should apologize to Rumplestilskin on "Once" (as well as Hook's flippant 'sorry' to Belle and her "You tried to kill me. Twice" rejoider on last week's episode... {And truthfully, I never had the impression that Hook was actually trying to KILL her when he forced her across the memory boundary. I thought he got what he wanted there -- erasing her memory of Rumple.)
Now, Rumple and Belle are different situations. Hook probably should do... I don't know, something re: Belle. (Staying behind to protect Belle -- albeit at Emma's pointed instructive glare -- this week was a step towards that.). But, honestly, as a viewer my desire to see Hook atone to Belle is heavily mitigated by Belle's rather delusional reaction to the Hook/Rumple backstory when it was revealed to her that Rumple murdered his own wife because the woman ran off with Hook.
Erm... Belle, I know you're loyal to your Rumple/Beast and all, but it actually SHOULD have upset you to learn your boyfriend murdered his wife for leaving him. I'm just sayin'...
Which brings me to the Hook/Rumple backstory.
Yes, young Pirate Jones (formerly Lieutenant Jones ...and someday to become Capt. Hook) was a bragging jackass when he first met Rumple. Hook was a dick about Milah having left Rumple and Bae (and I wish we had had just one scene of Hook and Bae/Neal speaking honestly about that. I'd even like to believe that was part of what fueled Hook's efforts to bond with Bae on the Jolly Roger and (we assume from things they said) while in Neverland. Alas, a missed opportunity for meaningful flashback/discussion. At least Hook/Neal(Bae) parted on good -- actually affectionate -- terms.).
At any rate, just to get all feminist -- Milah left Rumple. Hook did not 'steal' her. Milah was not property. She was an adult making her own decisions of her own free will. I may hate that she abandoned her son, but she chose to leave her husband, and then she chose to hook up with Hook... who was, indeed, a complete jackass to Rumple when Rumple confronted Hook and Milah when he found them together.
But a lot of water flowed under that bridge since then, and here's the thing, from where Hook and Rumple are now, I see no reason whatsoever for Hook to feel bad about anything regarding Rumple. Rumple lost any moral soap box the moment he killed Milah. Yes, his wife abandoned him and his son. Yes, Hook fell for Rumple's estranged wife and was a cocky jackass when confronted by her aggrieved husband. But then Rumple hunted them down, murdered Milah right in front of Hook, and chopped off Hook's hand, maiming Hook for life.
Okay, I've got to say, a character forever sacrifices the right to claim his wife was wrong to leave him when he tracks her down and kills her. All that proves is that she should have run further and faster (and taken her son with her.)
The fact that Hook has decided that vengeance is futile and has decided to stop trying to kill Rumple to 'avenge Milah' is resolution enough as far as I'm concerned. (I actually rather liked Hook's epiphany that vengeance doesn't fix things and was turning/had turned him into a villain.)
Hook/Rumple -- whether individually or both on the path of redemption -- need never feel compelled to become buddies or friends. I don't need to see apologies between them. Sometimes two characters never, ever have to like one another. That's okay. They don't have to bond. They can disdain each other into eternity and that's okay.
.
Why, exactly, should Hook apologize to Rumple now? Why should Hook have high regard for Belle when she's told this story and her reaction is "poor Rumple[Beast]"? Yeah, they may all be regular cast members and fight (outside) evil together when need be, but there is no reason this trio need ever become friends. There's simply no compelling reason for them to.
Similarly, sheesh, there are still people after alllllllll these years still upset for poor Principal Wood over the fact that Spike was a dick to him after Wood ambushed and triggered the First's mindcontrol/mindrape of Spike and, once unsuccessful in killing Spike, deep down wanted an apology from Spike over Nikki death.
Honestly, I really never gave a shit that Spike didn't apologize to Wood. Why should he? Whatever Spike felt regarding Nikki or even that poor orphaned kiddo Robin was not going to surface in the aftermath of a confrontation where the man had just triggered the result of months of torture and mind-control by The First Evil so as to turn Spike into an mindless animal ...so that Wood could feel better about himself (or at least up his odds of success) while killing Spike. At that point, I'm honestly just going to shrug at Spikes angry 'screw you' response to Wood's face. I might would like to know that deep down Spike did feel something more about his history with Nikki, but I have zero desire or expectation that he would express it to Wood at the end of "Lies My Parents Told Me". And, given the thousands of other character interactions that never got adequately explored, I put the 'lack of neatly tying things up with Wood and Spike' somewhere on the list of 'not really necessary' and 'I honestly do not give a damn.'
I'm not negating Wood's reason to BE pissed. Wood has every right to be pissed and hate-filled.
On the other hand, I don't expect the person who spent months being tortured and mindraped by The First, who finds himself facing someone deliberately exploiting and triggering all of the First damage, so as to ambush Spike, steal his free will, diminish everything Spike had struggled to regain in order to kill Spike to result in Spike's being in a 'heartfelt apology' state of mind with the guy.
And I don't see any reason to ever revisit the situation to 'make it any better'.
It's okay for characters to disdain one another and it NOT be resolved.
It's okay for Wood to feel justified in hating Spike. He is justified in hating Spike.
But I don't find it necessary for Spike to apologize to the dude willingly colluding with The First to rob Spike of free will in order to kill Spike.
Hate on, dudes. I need no neat resolution here.
Why do all fictional relationships need to be resolved?
And why must 'redemption' hinge on offering a sincere apology to some nemesis?
There are situations where there's really no compelling reason why characters should like one another, and there's no compelling story reason why the characters should.
These issues brought to you by ongoing debates on Capt. Hook/Rumplestilskin/Belle on "Once Upon a Time" and Spike/Wood discussion on Buffyforums.
There was a multi-day discussion of whether Capt. Hook should apologize to Rumplestilskin on "Once" (as well as Hook's flippant 'sorry' to Belle and her "You tried to kill me. Twice" rejoider on last week's episode... {And truthfully, I never had the impression that Hook was actually trying to KILL her when he forced her across the memory boundary. I thought he got what he wanted there -- erasing her memory of Rumple.)
Now, Rumple and Belle are different situations. Hook probably should do... I don't know, something re: Belle. (Staying behind to protect Belle -- albeit at Emma's pointed instructive glare -- this week was a step towards that.). But, honestly, as a viewer my desire to see Hook atone to Belle is heavily mitigated by Belle's rather delusional reaction to the Hook/Rumple backstory when it was revealed to her that Rumple murdered his own wife because the woman ran off with Hook.
Erm... Belle, I know you're loyal to your Rumple/Beast and all, but it actually SHOULD have upset you to learn your boyfriend murdered his wife for leaving him. I'm just sayin'...
Which brings me to the Hook/Rumple backstory.
Yes, young Pirate Jones (formerly Lieutenant Jones ...and someday to become Capt. Hook) was a bragging jackass when he first met Rumple. Hook was a dick about Milah having left Rumple and Bae (and I wish we had had just one scene of Hook and Bae/Neal speaking honestly about that. I'd even like to believe that was part of what fueled Hook's efforts to bond with Bae on the Jolly Roger and (we assume from things they said) while in Neverland. Alas, a missed opportunity for meaningful flashback/discussion. At least Hook/Neal(Bae) parted on good -- actually affectionate -- terms.).
At any rate, just to get all feminist -- Milah left Rumple. Hook did not 'steal' her. Milah was not property. She was an adult making her own decisions of her own free will. I may hate that she abandoned her son, but she chose to leave her husband, and then she chose to hook up with Hook... who was, indeed, a complete jackass to Rumple when Rumple confronted Hook and Milah when he found them together.
But a lot of water flowed under that bridge since then, and here's the thing, from where Hook and Rumple are now, I see no reason whatsoever for Hook to feel bad about anything regarding Rumple. Rumple lost any moral soap box the moment he killed Milah. Yes, his wife abandoned him and his son. Yes, Hook fell for Rumple's estranged wife and was a cocky jackass when confronted by her aggrieved husband. But then Rumple hunted them down, murdered Milah right in front of Hook, and chopped off Hook's hand, maiming Hook for life.
Okay, I've got to say, a character forever sacrifices the right to claim his wife was wrong to leave him when he tracks her down and kills her. All that proves is that she should have run further and faster (and taken her son with her.)
The fact that Hook has decided that vengeance is futile and has decided to stop trying to kill Rumple to 'avenge Milah' is resolution enough as far as I'm concerned. (I actually rather liked Hook's epiphany that vengeance doesn't fix things and was turning/had turned him into a villain.)
Hook/Rumple -- whether individually or both on the path of redemption -- need never feel compelled to become buddies or friends. I don't need to see apologies between them. Sometimes two characters never, ever have to like one another. That's okay. They don't have to bond. They can disdain each other into eternity and that's okay.
.
Why, exactly, should Hook apologize to Rumple now? Why should Hook have high regard for Belle when she's told this story and her reaction is "poor Rumple[Beast]"? Yeah, they may all be regular cast members and fight (outside) evil together when need be, but there is no reason this trio need ever become friends. There's simply no compelling reason for them to.
Similarly, sheesh, there are still people after alllllllll these years still upset for poor Principal Wood over the fact that Spike was a dick to him after Wood ambushed and triggered the First's mindcontrol/mindrape of Spike and, once unsuccessful in killing Spike, deep down wanted an apology from Spike over Nikki death.
Honestly, I really never gave a shit that Spike didn't apologize to Wood. Why should he? Whatever Spike felt regarding Nikki or even that poor orphaned kiddo Robin was not going to surface in the aftermath of a confrontation where the man had just triggered the result of months of torture and mind-control by The First Evil so as to turn Spike into an mindless animal ...so that Wood could feel better about himself (or at least up his odds of success) while killing Spike. At that point, I'm honestly just going to shrug at Spikes angry 'screw you' response to Wood's face. I might would like to know that deep down Spike did feel something more about his history with Nikki, but I have zero desire or expectation that he would express it to Wood at the end of "Lies My Parents Told Me". And, given the thousands of other character interactions that never got adequately explored, I put the 'lack of neatly tying things up with Wood and Spike' somewhere on the list of 'not really necessary' and 'I honestly do not give a damn.'
I'm not negating Wood's reason to BE pissed. Wood has every right to be pissed and hate-filled.
On the other hand, I don't expect the person who spent months being tortured and mindraped by The First, who finds himself facing someone deliberately exploiting and triggering all of the First damage, so as to ambush Spike, steal his free will, diminish everything Spike had struggled to regain in order to kill Spike to result in Spike's being in a 'heartfelt apology' state of mind with the guy.
And I don't see any reason to ever revisit the situation to 'make it any better'.
It's okay for characters to disdain one another and it NOT be resolved.
It's okay for Wood to feel justified in hating Spike. He is justified in hating Spike.
But I don't find it necessary for Spike to apologize to the dude willingly colluding with The First to rob Spike of free will in order to kill Spike.
Hate on, dudes. I need no neat resolution here.
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I don't know 'Once' at all but in the situation you describe I'd be upset by that. I would want Hook to continue trying to kill Rumple until he was successful.
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*nods*
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Is it sad that Wood lost his mother, hell yes, was she a good person who had a right to live, hell yes.
But you know what else she was? She was a vampire slayer. She was a warrior in a war who went out intentionally to hunt down and kill vampires.
Fighting Slayers is the closest Spike came to having a fair fight, since Slayers are stronger and more powerful than vampires.
They were both in a war and that night, Nikki lost the war.
It's sad, but as far as Spike's sins go, killing a Slayer is one of the least bad things he did.
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With you here, all the way. And please don't tell me that if Spike DID apologize to Wood it would make Wood feel any better about losing his mom or about Spike. Would make ME feel better about Spike, but I get both of them here, Wood's hate and Spike's anger at being betrayed and used like that.
And how come nobody rages about Wood never apologizing to Buffy? He betrayed her to the First, and she did nothing bad to him, ever. And not just her, he betrayed their cause, all those Slayer girls. The First was going to destroy all the Slayers and the world, and Wood went and consorted with it and did its bidding,
I was saying before, if Buffy were a real general and if it were a real war, Wood and Giles would've been court-martialled and shot against the wall, in all probability. They were at war for the sake of all humanity and Wood was dealing with the enemy out of personal grudge.
And Buffy forgave him and even went and apologizes to HIM, for being hard on him. She was just extraordinary kind. So in all this, I get Wood, Spike and Giles, I get where they are coming from, and I don't like it. But I love Buffy there. Here goes. :)
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It's okay for characters to disdain one another and it NOT be resolved.
It's okay for Wood to feel justified in hating Spike. He is justified in hating Spike.
But I don't find it necessary for Spike to apologize to the dude willingly colluding with The First to rob Spike of free will in order to kill Spike.
Hate on, dudes. I need no neat resolution here.
I agree. Whatever our feelings on how the situation played out between these two, the messy non-resolution of it was more like real life, which is messy and often unresolved despite what we would like.
ETA: the latest round of Spike/Wood discussions are especially irritating because they're occasioned by words put in his mouth by comic book writers who probably don't think any more of it than, "Boy, wasn't Nikki a cool character and wasn't that a cool fight on the subway car?", which is pretty much what I think Doug Petrie/Joss were thinking when they invented Nikki and wrote the subway fight scene.
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It's okay for characters to disdain one another and it NOT be resolved.
It's okay for Wood to feel justified in hating Spike. He is justified in hating Spike.
And if Spike had apologised, what exactly would that accomplish? That's another thing that bothers me about The Big Apology - in fiction and in real life as well. Yes, a sincere apology is a wonderful thing, but a lot of time it's treated as if if person A apologises for something, person B is now required to accept the apology, and if they don't they're the ones who are at fault. "Geez, I said sorry, what else do you want?" And when you're dealing with the really heavy stuff, that's a lot to ask of someone. For the most part, I think the Buffyverse handled those situations in an honest way, including the Spike & Wood scene.
FAITH: Buffy... I'm so-
BUFFY: If you apologize to me, I will beat you to death.
WILLOW: Dawnie! Dawnie, I'm so sorry! I'm so sorry, it was an accident! I didn't see, I'm so, so sorry.
DAWN: *slap*
Forgiveness is a wonderful thing to give. Especially if someone hasn't earned it. But asking it of the guy whose life you ruined, and who you were just in a fight to the death with, isn't an easy proposition. As Spike told us earlier in the season.
BUFFY: Skittish? That's not a word I would use for it. You tried to rape me. I don't have the words.
SPIKE: Neither do I. I can't say "sorry." Can't use "forgive me." All I can say is: Buffy, I've changed.
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I don't watch OUAT, but agree 100%. To go along with it, I don't need everyone to be friends, either. Sometimes you just don't like someone and that's perfectly fine. Sometimes there are no reconciliations. Some things *are* irreparable. Sometimes love dies, yada, yada, yada.
Spike doesn't need to apologize to Wood for a multitude of reasons, but even if he did, as other have mentioned, it wouldn't have changed anything. Hell, Wood says so when he thinks Spike *is* apologizing. What bothers me about it is Fury's crap about it all proving that Spike is 'morally ambiguous'. Because threatening someone who just tried to kill you is totally unscrupulous.
And that goes with many of the scenes listed above too. We *are* supposed to think Buffy is big ol' meanie in Sanctuary and a bitch for expecting her orders to be followed. We are supposed to think Spike is shady in LMPTM.
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