AtS Season 5 Question

[shipperx]

It's a question that came up for me when working on my WIP. I even went back and re-watched "You're Welcome" to see whether I had forgotten something, but the answer isn't in "You're Welcome."

Exactly why was Lindsey doing what he was doing in Season 5 AtS? In "You're Welcome"s big Angel/Lindsey fight scene he says he was pissed that Angel was handed everything that Lindsey had worked for... except... huh?

In the evil hand episode, Lindsey was given the job of head of the L.A. Branch. He turned it down and said to give it to Lilah instead.

So he's back in AtS 5 pissed because... Angel got the job? Huh?

I know that Lindsey long had a chip on his shoulder regarding Angel. And I know that there was also the issue of Darla (not that it was mentioned in AtS 5). But it just feels to me that Lindsey's motives and goal weren't well developed or identified in AtS 5.

This isn't really an issue in my WIP, other than it might be nice to know. Angel doesn't even appear in this story, and I know what Lindsey's motivation is within the context of my own story. But it does have me pondering Lindsey's Season 5 purpose. He went to a lot of trouble (including resurrecting Spike). But why and what he hoped to gain wasn't particularly well defined... at least from what I remember... and other than 'to piss off Angel.'

Am I forgetting something?

Comments

[fenchurche.livejournal.com]

As far as I was ever able to tell, that was the only reason we were given for what he was doing... and it has never, ever made any sense to me.

[elsaf]

I never saw any good reason for what Lindsey was doing. I figure the real motivation was an actor's availability at a time when they were struggling for ratings.

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

No, it never made any sense to me, either. I hated what they did to Lindsey's character in AtS S5. He had a nicely resolved character arc when he left the show originally, and despite how happy I was to see him again (and how hot he looked in those tattoos), I hated that he apparently just came back for some stupid, petty jealousy/revenge thing.

[killerweasel.livejournal.com]

I don't think they ever bothered explaining why he was there. You could make up whatever you want. :)

[usedtobeljs]

cindergal speaks for me here on every point. :-)

(Also, Joss has Angel say Lindsey's a "tiny Texan." He's from Oklahoma, damnit!)

(Edited for appropriate icon.)

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

That never made sense to me either, he parted with Angel on fairly good terms. Angel even played a prank on him with the "Cops suck" sign

I really didn't care for his characterisation in season 5, it didn't make any sense with him leaving L.A to get back to his roots. If anything it would have been more interesting if he had come back more or less reformed, and was interested in helping Angel get out of working for W&H, as Lindsey knew all about how that firm can screw up your morality and Angel once tried to do the same for him. That would have been a decent way of bringing everything full circle

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Hee! I know. I just figured Angel sacrificed accuracy for alliteration. :)

[kittyb90.livejournal.com]

Well, he tells Eve that Angel has everything he worked for, but when he is actually fighting Angel he talks about how Angel sold his soul by taking over Wolfram and Hart. My take is that, he left W&H to become one of the good guys, and now Angel, his big enemy, but also one of the good guys, is doing the job Lindsey gave up. He comes back to kill Angel which is good in his mind for two reasons: 1)He always hated him and 2)Angel has "sold his soul" and gone over to the dark side.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I admit to a love of filling in blanks. It's rather tempting to flesh out that part of the story.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

They never really explained Lindsey's motivations in season 5; I think in one of the commentaries David Greenwalt said that Lindsey left to go find himself and what he found was that he really hated Angel. CK himself said on one of the commentaries that he didn't know what his character was doing most of the time. So I think the writers concieved an idea and went with it; writing as they went along. Which pretty much leaves us to fanwank Lindsey's motivations for his actions ourselves.

My take on it is that Lindsey was mightily pissed off when he found out that Angel had accepted the position of CEO of Wolfram & Hart, given that Angel had mocked him because (and I quote from the episode 'Blind Date') "you sold your soul for a fifth-floor office and a company car." So, yeah, that would piss Lindsey off. Mightily. Do I think it was enough for Lindsey to concieve the plan to bring Spike back to undermine Angel? Possibly.

Here's where I have the problem: Lindsey didn't give a fuck about the Senior Partner's plans for Angel when he *worked there*. He'd have happily seen Angel dead and danced on his pile of dust without a care in the world. So do I think he came back to try to get into the Circle of the Black Thorn? Hell no. That contradicts every bit of Lindsey's journey in season 2.

And don't even get me started on the massively huge error in continuity concerning magic that occured in the episode "You're Welcome".

[owenthurman.livejournal.com]

I agree with the observations of contradictory and missing motives noted by everyone here.

It was never really clear how much Lindsey had to do with Spike's reappearance beyond setting him up with a mission and an apartment, either. Various theories were advanced and stories told but none of them were entirely consistent.

In NFA I remember that Lindsey seemed to be mostly interested in being a part of the drama. That's the reason he agrees to work with Angel; something big is happening and he just wants to be part of it. At the end he complains that Krevlorneswath is just "a flunky" and demands that Angel kill him personally. So maybe he is just in it for the drama.

[paratti.livejournal.com]

Joss was getting into practice for really ignoring character continuity and story sense for 'writing' S8?

[elisi]

I like the_royal_anna take on it (from her review of 'Power Play'):

Lorne says that power corrupts, but it’s more complicated than that. It's certainly a double-edged sword. Lindsey turned down power when he was offered it, and came back seeking more. Under the thumb of Wolfram and Hart, his greatest power was the power to turn down power, but he tried that, and it seems it wasn't enough.

(Might be back with more thoughts later, but must run now...)

[owenthurman.livejournal.com]

I just realized that both Spike's and Lindsey's arcs in AtS S5 that keep them in L.A. with Angel are missing motives and unexplained. Beyond that, Gunn, Wesley, and Winifred are there by mystical brainwashing. The only major characters in the whole year who have any kind of real connection to the story justified by their own background and arc are Harmony and Angelus.

[shapinglight]

It never made any sense to me either. I think peasant_ wrote some meta on it once, but that didn't convince me either.

I just get annoyed that Spike's resurrection is nothing to do with him, but all because Lindsey was ticked off with Angel.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

LOL!

Good one.

[rahirah]

No, you're right, it made absolutely no sense whatsoever. They wanted Lindsey back and didn't bother to come up with a reason why.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Grr! I want even the bad guys to have actual motivations. And I definitely want someone gray (which is what I considered Lindsey to be) to have motivations. I want to understand at the very least.

At any rate, I think this sort of changes the scene I'm currently writing. I'm developing a fanwank, and it's going to have to be incorporated into the character.

[hazel75.livejournal.com]

You're forgetting the fact that Joss sucks at continuity and especially continuity in conjunction with character development.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Well, I wouldn't say 'forgot' exactly. But it still dumbfounds me from time to time when I'm confronted with it.

[hazel75.livejournal.com]

It's Joss's problem with writing character development and world-building/plot that make sense. Instead, he just does what he wants regardless of whether it really works with what's gone before. Laziness.

Kind of what you talked about in comments for one of your recent posts :)

[hazel75.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I would almost use the word confounds except Joss (and I accidentally typed that Joass which kind of works for me) does it too often for that word to be correct.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

*sigh*

I really shouldn't be surprised that Joss and co. thought of what would be 'cool' to them as opposed to how to make sense of it within the story or bother to explain why this character would do this...

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

You're probably right, but Hrphf! I'm displeased.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Seriously, would a little thought given to Lindsey's motivation have been too much to ask?