Spike Thoughts Generated from a Lost Convo
Jan. 6th, 2005 09:22 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shipperxThere has been a lot of comparison between Sawyer/Spike and Jack/Angel going on in LOST convos. This has been in either people making the comparisons or in people saying that alot of the old Spike/Angel baggage is being thrown on the Sawyer/Jack debate. To an extent I believe that's a valid observation.
I think I and others do tend to throw some BtVS baggage onto LOST. And there's a lot of Spike baggage to throw. That said, I don't think even the folks tossing Spike baggage at Sawyer in anyway see Sawyer as Spike.
Sawyer isn't Spike. Sawyer hasn't shown Spike's depth or Spike's more golden qualities. Sawyer isn't a Romantic (I mean that with a capital 'R') that Spike was. Sawyer has none of Spike's dogged loyalty and unceasing determination. Sawyer has nice abs, great cheekbones, and very nice eyes. He's obnoxious. He spouts off harsh truths and nicknames. In those senses he bears resemblance to Spike. But he isn't a character of Spike's complexity and contrasts nor is Josh Holloway (as hot as he is) of JM's talent. I don't think people are confusing Sawyer with Spike. Or think that Sawyer compares to Spike. Sawyer isn't as good as Spike. For that matter, I in no way believe that Jack is as good as Angel. In fact, this is probably the worse of the two comparisons because Angel was a lot of things, but Angel never in any way resembled a Mary Sue. Angel's problems were huge. His regrets his own. His past crimes overwhelming. Angel truly was a character who the writers showed to have massive flaws. Thus far Jack's one crime is... eh... daddy issues. Well Angel had those and a whole lot more. Plus, Angel could be lovably goofy. Jack is sort of just whitebread. Sure he broods a lot and he's the alpha hero. But I knew Angel, and, Jack, you're no Angel). I think where the Sawyer/Jack comparison is meeting the Spike/Angel comparison are in the area of set-up. We've seen Fury work this triangle stuff before. We've seen the brood vs. the ass. They aren't Spike/Angel. But we recognize the set-up and we have baggage to spare. We can wish the baggage didn't exist, but it does. Joss made me a more cynical TV viewer than I used to be and I just can't unlearn those lessons so easily. I probably wouldn't have quite the same knee-jerk reaction if Fury wasn't involved. But he is and so my baggage came with me.
I think a lot of the baggage flinging is actually Fury-baggage. It was years of "Angel has to be special so Spike can't be" posts for several years. That sort of set up the competitive dynamic and naturally fostered a great deal of resentment in Spike fans who thought Spike was pretty damn special too.
Now to the AtS Part of this Convo:
However, if there's one thing I'm grateful for in AtS Season 5 is that it made me feel better about Angel. Now, that's not to say that Angel didn't have his positive qualities before then, because he did. I even liked Angel most of the time (on AtS. Really, Angel tended to be a bit of a cipher on BtVS). But due to the above
mentioned "Angel is Special/Spike isn't" thing I was less fond of Angel than I might have been. However, in Season 5 AtS, they sort of went into it with a feeling that Spangel is okay. And that sort of... helped.
Unlike BtVS where I end with still having many really harsh issues with Buffy and sort of an ambivalent conflicted feeling with Xander and other Scoobs, it's sort of nice that at the end, I wound up with a lot of affection for the big lug Angel. If it had ended at Chosen, I wouldn't have had those positive feeling (**cough**cookiedough**cough. Cough**TWELVE!**cough**. **cough**AmuletofDeath**cough) But AtS Season 5, while still having its irritations, made me lose the anger I would have felt at the end of Chosen.
Now, truthfully, I look back now. Angel -- poor sod -- always managed to screw up everything, didn't he? When all is said and
done (despite Wolfgirl and Connor) Angel got the unhappier end.
Now, I still don't agree with some because -- ANGEL AND SPIKE (AND ILLYRIA) LIVED DAMN IT!!! (heh. Yeah, I'm still quite, quite insistent on that). Their fight wasn't over. The battle rages on. However, see, that's why I think Angel's end is the more tragic.
Spike's isn't exactly happy. He never got the girl he loved. But (through Season 5) he got to meet Fred... someone who I think was probably the most genuine and generous friend either Spike or William ever had. He lost her, but I think her friendship meant a great deal to him (and his future). She was a good person who did good by him and by others. I'm glad Spike at last got someone who was his friend in a completely untarnished way. And I feel that Spike got a lot of acceptance and comradship from Gunn. And he even got to put to rest the more toxic of his resentment to Angel. All of these things are positives. And in the end, I think Spike got some kind of peace with himself, some self respect. So I think by the end, he ended relatively positively.
Angel, however...
See I DO believe they lived through that fight. And I think that would have to be hell for Angel. Angel has lost whatever measure of peace he had found. His great dreams turned to dust. Doyle died. Cordy died. Fred died. Wesley died. Angel chose to go to W&H and that was a disaster.
I think it was TheDeadlyHook who pointed out that Spike never took a real misstep at least not one that wasn't only boyishly bad (**cough**Sparm**cough**) But on all the big choices, after the resurrection, his hands were pretty darn clean. In the final assault he even rescued a baby. And in the end, he was standing alongside those he probably liked to consider friends.
Contrast that with poor Angel who has to remember that he signed the contract with W&H. And in the final assault... Angel did something that was just *wrong* -- he killed an innocent. And he was justifying it to himself that the ends justifies the means... except I don't believe they do. I still don't believe that decapitating the
organization did all that much. It would barely have slowed W&H down. So -- THEY LIVED! (you know I'm insistent on that point). Angel, Illyria, and Spike (though probably not Gunn) make it out of the alley, albeit as marked beings, Spike would come out if it in relative peace with himself because he'd done all and the best he could do. He'd remained loyal throughout. Sad for the passings of good people, but in no way guilt ridden due to his own actions. Angel? I would think living through the night is the intolerable option for him because that would mean living with the murder of Drogyn, the death of Wesley, and compounding his regrets over Fred's death.
Angel doesn't get much comfort at the end of the day. And it does have to continue to hurt that Angel was cursed with a soul that Spike earned (even if Angel says it doesn't).
In the end, when all is said and done, I tend to see Angel as a tragic figure. His mistakes cost him so much, and whatever measure of peace he'd found in LA has slipped through his fingers. So he lives on... unhappily.
Spike, while not having the girl, ended up with some more important things -- respect and acceptance (even if there's the grief of having lost them again). And I think that though there would be grief in the end his fate is a far less unhappy one than Angel's.
So ultimately, I feel for Angel. I really do. And at the end of the day I have no resentment and a lot of affection for the guy. I only wish I could say the same for Buffy.
I think I and others do tend to throw some BtVS baggage onto LOST. And there's a lot of Spike baggage to throw. That said, I don't think even the folks tossing Spike baggage at Sawyer in anyway see Sawyer as Spike.
Sawyer isn't Spike. Sawyer hasn't shown Spike's depth or Spike's more golden qualities. Sawyer isn't a Romantic (I mean that with a capital 'R') that Spike was. Sawyer has none of Spike's dogged loyalty and unceasing determination. Sawyer has nice abs, great cheekbones, and very nice eyes. He's obnoxious. He spouts off harsh truths and nicknames. In those senses he bears resemblance to Spike. But he isn't a character of Spike's complexity and contrasts nor is Josh Holloway (as hot as he is) of JM's talent. I don't think people are confusing Sawyer with Spike. Or think that Sawyer compares to Spike. Sawyer isn't as good as Spike. For that matter, I in no way believe that Jack is as good as Angel. In fact, this is probably the worse of the two comparisons because Angel was a lot of things, but Angel never in any way resembled a Mary Sue. Angel's problems were huge. His regrets his own. His past crimes overwhelming. Angel truly was a character who the writers showed to have massive flaws. Thus far Jack's one crime is... eh... daddy issues. Well Angel had those and a whole lot more. Plus, Angel could be lovably goofy. Jack is sort of just whitebread. Sure he broods a lot and he's the alpha hero. But I knew Angel, and, Jack, you're no Angel). I think where the Sawyer/Jack comparison is meeting the Spike/Angel comparison are in the area of set-up. We've seen Fury work this triangle stuff before. We've seen the brood vs. the ass. They aren't Spike/Angel. But we recognize the set-up and we have baggage to spare. We can wish the baggage didn't exist, but it does. Joss made me a more cynical TV viewer than I used to be and I just can't unlearn those lessons so easily. I probably wouldn't have quite the same knee-jerk reaction if Fury wasn't involved. But he is and so my baggage came with me.
I think a lot of the baggage flinging is actually Fury-baggage. It was years of "Angel has to be special so Spike can't be" posts for several years. That sort of set up the competitive dynamic and naturally fostered a great deal of resentment in Spike fans who thought Spike was pretty damn special too.
Now to the AtS Part of this Convo:
However, if there's one thing I'm grateful for in AtS Season 5 is that it made me feel better about Angel. Now, that's not to say that Angel didn't have his positive qualities before then, because he did. I even liked Angel most of the time (on AtS. Really, Angel tended to be a bit of a cipher on BtVS). But due to the above
mentioned "Angel is Special/Spike isn't" thing I was less fond of Angel than I might have been. However, in Season 5 AtS, they sort of went into it with a feeling that Spangel is okay. And that sort of... helped.
Unlike BtVS where I end with still having many really harsh issues with Buffy and sort of an ambivalent conflicted feeling with Xander and other Scoobs, it's sort of nice that at the end, I wound up with a lot of affection for the big lug Angel. If it had ended at Chosen, I wouldn't have had those positive feeling (**cough**cookiedough**cough. Cough**TWELVE!**cough**. **cough**AmuletofDeath**cough) But AtS Season 5, while still having its irritations, made me lose the anger I would have felt at the end of Chosen.
Now, truthfully, I look back now. Angel -- poor sod -- always managed to screw up everything, didn't he? When all is said and
done (despite Wolfgirl and Connor) Angel got the unhappier end.
Now, I still don't agree with some because -- ANGEL AND SPIKE (AND ILLYRIA) LIVED DAMN IT!!! (heh. Yeah, I'm still quite, quite insistent on that). Their fight wasn't over. The battle rages on. However, see, that's why I think Angel's end is the more tragic.
Spike's isn't exactly happy. He never got the girl he loved. But (through Season 5) he got to meet Fred... someone who I think was probably the most genuine and generous friend either Spike or William ever had. He lost her, but I think her friendship meant a great deal to him (and his future). She was a good person who did good by him and by others. I'm glad Spike at last got someone who was his friend in a completely untarnished way. And I feel that Spike got a lot of acceptance and comradship from Gunn. And he even got to put to rest the more toxic of his resentment to Angel. All of these things are positives. And in the end, I think Spike got some kind of peace with himself, some self respect. So I think by the end, he ended relatively positively.
Angel, however...
See I DO believe they lived through that fight. And I think that would have to be hell for Angel. Angel has lost whatever measure of peace he had found. His great dreams turned to dust. Doyle died. Cordy died. Fred died. Wesley died. Angel chose to go to W&H and that was a disaster.
I think it was TheDeadlyHook who pointed out that Spike never took a real misstep at least not one that wasn't only boyishly bad (**cough**Sparm**cough**) But on all the big choices, after the resurrection, his hands were pretty darn clean. In the final assault he even rescued a baby. And in the end, he was standing alongside those he probably liked to consider friends.
Contrast that with poor Angel who has to remember that he signed the contract with W&H. And in the final assault... Angel did something that was just *wrong* -- he killed an innocent. And he was justifying it to himself that the ends justifies the means... except I don't believe they do. I still don't believe that decapitating the
organization did all that much. It would barely have slowed W&H down. So -- THEY LIVED! (you know I'm insistent on that point). Angel, Illyria, and Spike (though probably not Gunn) make it out of the alley, albeit as marked beings, Spike would come out if it in relative peace with himself because he'd done all and the best he could do. He'd remained loyal throughout. Sad for the passings of good people, but in no way guilt ridden due to his own actions. Angel? I would think living through the night is the intolerable option for him because that would mean living with the murder of Drogyn, the death of Wesley, and compounding his regrets over Fred's death.
Angel doesn't get much comfort at the end of the day. And it does have to continue to hurt that Angel was cursed with a soul that Spike earned (even if Angel says it doesn't).
In the end, when all is said and done, I tend to see Angel as a tragic figure. His mistakes cost him so much, and whatever measure of peace he'd found in LA has slipped through his fingers. So he lives on... unhappily.
Spike, while not having the girl, ended up with some more important things -- respect and acceptance (even if there's the grief of having lost them again). And I think that though there would be grief in the end his fate is a far less unhappy one than Angel's.
So ultimately, I feel for Angel. I really do. And at the end of the day I have no resentment and a lot of affection for the guy. I only wish I could say the same for Buffy.
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no subject
Date: 2005-01-07 04:33 am (UTC)I do think it has to do with Buffy writers on the show (Fury and now Goddard).
no subject
Date: 2005-01-09 03:30 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-01-07 04:54 am (UTC)As for the Jack/Angel comparisons, they are even flimsier. Jack broods. That's it. He's boring. Angel never bored me - even on Buffy. I'm not sure how much of a hero Jack is supposed to be, but yeah, he's no Angel.
I loved your analysis about Spike and Angel in AtS Season 5. Shortly after the end of the series I remarked elsewhere that what Angel did was like a man who wants to commit suicide but goes into his workplace with a loaded rifle and takes his coworkers out with him. I think that the SPs sucked all the Fang Gang into a hellish dimension, and I think I heard that Season 6 was going to be them getting out again. It would have been fabulous. Perhaps in that season Angel would have finally broken out of his loop, and been able to advance toward his redemption. But there is no doubt that Spike has already earned his redemption.
I hate the WB.
no subject
Date: 2005-01-09 03:31 am (UTC)And, no, Jack isn't Angel's equal. And, yes, I found Angel to be suspiciously suicidal at the end.
no subject
Date: 2005-01-07 07:57 am (UTC)Of course Angel and Spike (and Illyria) survived, otherwise what would be the point of the point being made? They live on and have to fight again all over.
Good points. I'm still annoyed about Drogyn. I liked him and it seemed strange that he was a bit too easy to kill for someone who has lived so long and had an important metaphysical(?)role.
no subject
Date: 2005-01-09 03:32 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-01-09 11:44 am (UTC)I have a lot of affection for Drogyn. I intend to write him one day.
no subject
Date: 2005-01-07 10:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-01-09 03:36 am (UTC)But on a purely character basis, nah, they aren't the same guy. Spike has a more guilty past and yet in a strange way Sawyer is the less sympathetic character.
no subject
Date: 2005-01-07 11:09 am (UTC)However, I, too, believe they lived, and, being a Spangel 'shipper can think that Spike was able to offer the poor old sod some comfort.
no subject
Date: 2005-01-09 03:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-01-09 11:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-01-07 01:55 pm (UTC)I'm still so very very angry that we didn't get season 6 because things were getting so interesting in terms of Angel/Spike dynamics and in terms of the potential for development of the Illyria character ... I may just have to go and sulk now
no subject
Date: 2005-01-09 03:37 am (UTC)