The Late (Not So Great) Buffy Summers

[shipperx]

I ended up in a discussion of Season 7 and the character of Buffy on someone else's LJ. And, as these things sometimes do, a debate began to form. The thing is, I really don't want to debate the issue. It's just that sometimes when saying that, it sounds like I feel that I can't defend my point of view. But it's really not that.

The thing is, why debate the issue? I don't have any desire to talk someone out of their liking the character of Buffy. I have no motivation to talk someone out of their contentment with the conclusion of BtVS. If you feel that way, good for you. I see no reason why I should try to talk you out of it, point by debateable point. By the same token, I cannot simply be "talked out" of my feelings on the issue. It's not going to happen. I know it's not going to happen, so I why argue about it? (Plus, the space I would need to express my feelings on the subject would be rude to a point beyond belief to post in someone else's LJ, so I simply couldn't respond there even if I wanted to debate the issue).

That said, my personal rambling talking points and musings on the subject of Miss Buffy Summers and BtVS...

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Not Getting What I Wanted
It was mentioned that if I focused on "what [I] didn't get in Season (6)7," I would never "be satisfied" with the season. I understand what this person was saying, but I don't think it works that way. The fact of the matter is that I wasn't satisfied with Season 7. I wasn't satisfied with what I got. If I had been, I wouldn't have been so pissed off that I watched only one scene in "End of Days" when it aired, and I wouldn't have been cursing a blue streak when I initially read the script for "Chosen." Being cognizant of and even identifying the specifics of why I felt dissatisfied, isn't creating the disatisfaction. The disatisfaction was there in a very visceral form. At this late date all I do is catalogue and categorize my BtVS issues in an effort to understand them (which is usually part of the effort to write fanfic. Identifying what was true in the characters as they existed and what I needed to be satisfied with their stories... and how to bridge that gap is what fuels my writing.

And it's not that I expected or even need for the show to be perfect. I've been disappointed in other shows. I adored the X-Files, and, let's be honest, its final season was crap. However, that disatisfaction with the final couple of seasons doesn't color my view of its characters. It didn't sour me on the show. I still enjoy it, the memory of it, and the things which attracted me to the show are things that still attract me in reruns. Forever Knight's finale was atrocious. Even worse than Chosen. It was one giant "fuck you!" to the audience and undermined the entire series... and yet, it still didn't sour me on the characters the same way BtVS did (I never had cared for Natalie. It did change my view of Nick--stupid ponce. But my love of Lacroix and Janette remains). I don't have to "get what I wanted" to end a series still having enjoyment in it. But something about BtVS makes it one of two instances where my disatisfaction with the overall scope of the story is intense enough to have lingering effects. BtVS changed some of my viewing habits and tastes. Whereas I once adored bickering/bantering relationships on screen, I now have real problems with enjoying them, seeing ugliness that I wouldn't have seen without the ugliness of what was done on BtVS. . .and I trace a lot of that to my disatisfaction with the journey I took with Buffy. It wasn't there before. It is there now. I didn't want or need "perfect" or to have exactly what I wanted. But I'm not satisfied with what I got. Just not.

(And btw, I'm okay with that. I don't angst over this issue. I find it a curiosity, and I examine it, trying to suss out exactly why I feel this way. It's an informative process. I find it a point of interest-- not angst-- and when I grow bored with it or something else grabs my attention, I move on. )

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Buffy was depressed...
This issue features prominently in any pro/con discussion of Buffy. No one actually debates that Buffy was depressed in Season 6 (and part of Season 5 too, actually). The difference comes in with how people view her actions with regard to depression. How much does (or doesn't) depression excuse? How much is explained by her depression. How sympathetic is the audience to that depression in her. These factors (and the assumptions which come with them) tint and shade the context we give to Buffy in the latter seasons and often indicate our position regarding Buffy. We can look at that depression in two lights.

Depression in terms of storytelling
First off, I don't think season long depression was a particularly good story choice in a television series format. Depression, even in reality, is not easily observed. Living with someone in depression isn't easy, and isn't the least bit enjoyable for the people around the depressive. This holds true for an audience watching it over the looooooong course of a 22 episode season spread out over eight loooong months. Of particular difficulty is the fact that depression distorts perception. How the depressive views their circumstances is not exactly rational. In a television format we are not, and cannot be in the depressive character's shoes. We do not see the world through that character's eyes. We are the observers. Perhaps it is possible in a novel format to see through the character's eyes and thus sympathize fully with the depressive character. However, this story was not told in a novel format. It was TV. We, the audience, can only observe the character. We, the audience, see her actions in objective form (with a degree of subjectivity, certainly, but we don't view the world through the depressive's POV). We see the character's world more rationally than the character does and this effects how we view her behavior. This in itself makes us view Buffy's actions differently than Buffy does. Now, add in the fact that Buffy became utterly impossible to read and emotionally remote. A story which is already difficult to convey because of emotional distance is compounded in its difficulty by a character (and/or actress) who witholds expression, who doesn't relate, who doesn't openly emote very often, and who virtually incapable of articulating her feelings in a comprehensible fashion. This culmination of factors makes me think that any story which depends on observing depression for an extended period of time is doomed to lose a lot of its audience along the way. A lot of people are going to lose sympathy and empathy and patience with the character no matter how realistic depression as an emotional disorder happens to be.

Quite simply, from the outside looking in, characters in depression are frustrating to watch at best and infuriating at worst. And a season of it can become an excruciatingly aggravating viewing experience.

It doesn't work particularly well from a plotting standpoint. While it is valid to say that someone in a depression isn't going to have an epiphany and just get better... again, in a storytelling format that doesn't work so well. It may be emotionally realistic from a clinical psychological standpoint because she just couldn't pull herself out of her funk. But from a plotting standpoint, it's an unwise choice and not particularly effective. It wears out the patience of large portions of the audience. It's repetitive to have a character repeatedly realize the same essential point -- "Hey, I'm depressed and detached!" The audience "got" that point way back in November. The character having this realization for the nth time in May ceased to have any compelling drama for substantial portions of the audience. It also means that on an emotional level the plot was moving at a glacial pace. Drama doesn't really increase with repetition. It decreases. So by Buffy repeatedly doing the "I'm in a bad place, I've lost the fire, I don't know why I do these things" over and over and over again, it wasn't compounding the drama, it was bleeding it out, hemmoraging it onto the floor until at the end it was just this pallid corpse of a dramatic point. The metaphor of climbing out of the grave was quite obvious... and emotionally hollow for many, because the issue ceased to have dramatic resonance 10 epiphanies ago (or at least it ceased to do so for many if the tone of the boards and the show's dwindling ratings toward the end of the season were any clue. The slow bleed of ratings from series highs at the beginning of the season to the plummeting depths by ep 20 [ratings the show never substantially recovered] shows that somewhere in this the character of Buffy lost her hold over the audience). So even if it can be argued that Buffy's inability to pull herself out of her black funk is psychologically valid, on a pure plotting level it wasn't one that sustained the interest and empathy of many segments of the audience.


Audience Empathy with Depression...
A lot of the rhetoric surrounding latter season Buffy revolves around empathizing with her depression. Is it an experience people can empathize with? It's not a universal experience, but, you know, even if you've experienced depression, I don't know that means that you empathize with Buffy's depression. I've been depressed in my life, really depressed. And, I did cut Buffy slack for depression. . .to a point. And I recognize that she was depressed. But when push comes to shove... I don't like her for being depressed. And what's more, I don't excuse her actions because she was depressed.

Yes, she was depressed. And yes, depression is something to sympathize with. But depression (in my eyes) does not cover everything Buffy did. And it certainly doesn't excuse what Buffy did. Depression is a mood and it can be self defeating. It can make someone stagnate. It can make someone curl up and hide. However, depression doesn't mean it's okay to take your anger at yourself out on others. It just doesn't. And that is what Buffy did. Depression doesn't have to look like that. Depression doesn't mean having to use someone else. Those are particular (and particularly offensive) coping tactics that do not reflect well on the person doing them. And they are not reflective of the psychological state of being depressed. They are a particularly ugly choice of expressing psychological issues that are not depression dependent. They can be associated with depression, they are not caused by depression. They are examples of other psychological issues which can piggy back on depression.

Yes, Buffy was depressed. . . but she was also fucked up. These are two different issues that happen to compound one another. Abusers are depressed. Depression doesn't explain abuse. Kids and postal workers who go on mass murdering sprees are depressed, depression isn't the cause of the murdering spree. Depression is a state. Taking that depression out on someone else is a choice. Buffy was depressed. How she coped with it, was a choice. I don't dislike her for being depressed. I dislike her choices.


Buffy's situation was tough. Buffy's situation was sympathetic. Buffy's depression is unfortunate. But facing adversity in and of itself isn't heroism. It's really bad luck. Buffy had a really bad situation and a lot of adversity. But that's something to pity not to admire. Heroism is in how one chooses to face adversity not in the adversity itself. So because that Buffy was in the midst of clinical depression facing many obstacles is pitiable, it doesn't make me admire her. To admire her I look at how she faced those obstacles and how she dealt with her depression.

She didn't deal with depression well. She was emotionally dishonest with her friends, never openly discussing her issues with what they had done. She never sought professional help (no, talking about it in CWDP doesn't count. She didn't seek help and it was another instance of 'talking in a dead man's ear doesn't make it real.' She says it, denies it, and erases it by killing the vamp all in one set of scenes. This is not a theraputic breakthrough). She chose to use Spike (and regardless of whether he allowed it, embraced it, or said it was okay, it's not okay. That only means that Spike had issues of his own. He was a co-dependent. I don't blame Buffy that Spike allowed her to use him. That's his messed-up co-depence. I blame Buffy that she did use him. Her choice. That he said she could use him doesn't excuse that she chose to actually do so. And I don't have to like or excuse her for it. I can look at the way she chose to deal with her situation and think... um... not admirable of you, Buffster. I don't think I like you very much.

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Buffy was flawed...
When pointing out Buffy's failings it usualy leads to the truism of "Buffy was flawed..."
Yes, I think most can agree that Buffy is flawed. Still, when it's said as in context of "you want a perfect heroine" I think there's a failure to communicate. Saying it that way presupposes that I want or need a perfect heroine, which may be an incredibly wrong supposition.

In point of fact I don't want a perfect heroine. I usually actively dislike perfect heroines. It's just a matter of whether I find the characters flaws ones that create a character that works for me.

I look back at the heroines I've really loved over the years, perfect isn't what I would use to describe them. Scully wasn't perfect. She was repressed and she denied herself, but I never, ever lost sympathy for her. Now, admittedly Scully was more perfect than Buffy. She was relentlessly strong, resourceful, and independent. She was relentlessly honorable. So maybe some might like to categorize her as perfected. So I look to Aeryn Sun. Aeryn Sun wasn't perfect. She had a past far, far more dark than Buffy's. Aeryn commited terrible crimes. She was also repressed, difficult, remote. . .and I didn't lose sympathy with her. Again, though, she had such an unshakable sense of honor and heroism that maybe (if someone squinted hard enough) they could say that she was perfected in some respects.

So then I have to look at my other favorite heroines (and sadly, it's perhaps part of the industry problems that I begin to reach toward soaps). On soaps, I generally loathe the "good girl" heroines. The heroines I've loved are the out and out bitches. I loved Another World's Vicky Hudson... who schemed, plotted, and slept around. When I loved her best she was the "bad girl" not the heroine. And I loved Another World's Lorna Devon, leather-clad rock-bitch who resented her parents, and stuck it to the "good girl" and who was tormented and terrible... and incredible and strong. These characters were the out and out "bitches" of the show, not some perfected heroine. And yet... I was in total sympathy for them. The same goes for All My Children's Kendal Hart -- she's a bitch with trust issues and disastrous relationships with men and her family and... I'm in total sympathy with her.

I don't expect heroines to be perfect. Don't want them to be. But I do want to feel for them. And I can understand a lot, excuse a lot. It's just the strange alchemy of characters whether a character's flaws are ones that fit wity your kinks, what you can excuse, what you can continue to sympathize with. It's partially performance (some actresses are just more gifted at keeping you on their characters side) and it's partially a case of writing because...

It's Not Just SMG
Over the years I've become... not a SMG fan. BUt my problems with Buffy aren't about SMG. I have real issues with SMG's performance over the last couple years of Buffy. I think acting choices (and, yes, editing choices) have a part in my discontent with Buffy. But it's not just a matter of SMG. SMG did in fact play one aforementioned bitch Kendal Hart. I liked SMG's Kendal Hart (albeit not as much as I like the current Alicia Minshew Kendal Hart who... is actually amore sympathic version of the character). But even then as terrible and awful, vindictive, misguided, fucked up as Kendal was (then and now), I liked Kendal. So, why did/do I like Kendal but dislike Buffy? There's something to that. And it's not that Buffy was flawed (all my favorite female characters are). It's not that she was emotionally remote and repressed (Scully and Aeryn were that). It's not that she could be bitch from hell (Vicky, Lorna, Kendal) are bitches on wheels.

It isn't that Buffy was flawed that made me disconnect and lose sympathy for Buffy. It's Buffy's specific flaws that led me dislike her.

It's like choosing a friend, in some ways. You like some people. You dislike others. It's not so much about who was better or worse, it's about what flaws and mistakes, choices and actions fit what you can accept and like. I grew to dislike Buffy -- because of the specific ways her flaws played out and because of her choices.

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In Conclusion
So if I feel that way, why write her?

Because I find Buffy's situation sympathetic. I find her circumstances sympathetic. I find her universe compelling. So maybe if she made different choices...

Okay if choices are based on character then is she doomed to make the same choices again? If I change her choices am I changeing her? Is it possible to be in any way true to Buffy and have her. . . do something else?

This is what I struggle with when I write her. This is probably why I hit walls when trying to write her. I'm not trying to make Buffy become someone she isn't. But can she grow and make different choices? This is why I still find interest in writing her. This is the challenge she presents for me.

Strangely it is my dissatisfaction that presents the challenge. I don't write Farscape-fic. I'm content with Farscape and with Aeryn. I've written X-Files fic, but really, not the last couple of seasons of it (although I could be challenged to do so. I find Scully's repression interesting in its own right. It's not that I never became frustrated with Scully-- I did. It's that I never stopped empathizing with her). And, honestly, I won't be writing Post-Chosen Buffy (unless it's a sequel to Perfect Vengeance) because, I have no interest in writing Post-Chosen Buffy because she's one step too far for me. I don't know that a purely canon Post-Chosen Buffy can ever become who I would wish her to be. So I tend to continue with Post-Season 6 Buffy because somewhere in Season 6-7, the Buffy I could have admired for the way she faced adversity became lost.

For Buffy to be a heroine for me, she has to face that adversity in a different way. Having faced that adversity the way that she did and made the choices that she did and ending where she did in Season 7, I don't have interest in that Buffy. I want one a few steps back so that she can face those trials differently.

And that's probably why I can't be talked into being satisfied with what I got in Season 7. I wasn't. And I'm not interested in becoming so.

Comments

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Buffy's situation was tough. Buffy's situation was sympathetic. Buffy's depression is unfortunate. But facing adversity in and of itself isn't heroism. It's really bad luck. Buffy had a really bad situation and a lot of adversity. But that's something to pity not to admire. Heroism is in how one chooses to face adversity not in the adversity itself. So because that Buffy was in the midst of clinical depression facing many obstacles is pitiable, it doesn't make me admire her. To admire her I look at how she faced those obstacles and how she dealt with her depression.

Big ol' WORD. Very well said. S7's largest flaw, in my mind, was to follow up S6's misery train by not showing Buffy pull herself and her life back together, but to continue in the same vein, by drawing our attention again and again to reasons why we should feel sorry for Buffy, while at the same time, showcasing her displaying a lot of not-exactly-admirable behavior. Heroism in S6 and S7 were almost totally redefined as simply bearing up under adversity.

It's like choosing a friend, in some ways. You like some people. You dislike others. It's not so much about who was better or worse, it's about what flaws and mistakes, choices and actions fit what you can accept and like. I grew to dislike Buffy -- because of the specific ways her flaws played out and because of her choices.

Yes. Buffy got... very difficult to like, or admire, for me. I can rationalize her being that way, given what we were shown/told, but I didn't like or trust her toward the end.

I swear, I had this vision, after "Chosen" went off the air, of what Buffy might be like ten years in the future, and it was the type of person I used to avoid at work - some superficial and brittlely pretty marketing drone who might be inclined to flirt with with copy machine repairman and possibly even get drunk and have sex with him at the office Christmas party, then act all frosty come New Year's and pretend it never happened. Not the sort of person I'd want to have lunch with or trust with my secrets. Someone who'd be downright shocked and surprised when the day arrived that hot men no longer lined up at her door.

... and weirdly enough, it's my own dissatisfaction with the character that keeps me writing her too. I was very invested with earlier stages of the character, and it's hard not to view her as someone warped out of shape in later seasons, and who in different circumstances might get herself back on track. But without having seen that process on the actual show, I can never be fully happy with her canon resolution. I didn't like the character where they left her. I just didn't.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

to continue in the same vein, by drawing our attention again and again to reasons why we should feel sorry for Buffy, while at the same time, showcasing her displaying a lot of not-exactly-admirable behavior. Heroism in S6 and S7 were almost totally redefined as simply bearing up under adversity

Exactly! It was some strange mindset that really never works for me. I'll compare it to the Farscape ep "The Way We Weren't."

In the Buffyverse Buffy would do horrible things and then we were shown reasons we were to feel sorry for her. This was presented as a way to make her actions sympathetic. But, for me, it doesn't work that way. On the other hand in the Aeryn ep "The Way We Weren't" Aeryn is shown to have destroyed her lover leading to his execution --arguably a worse crime than Buffy's. However, her actions aren't shown in a sympathetic light. We aren't meant to feel sorry for Aeryn that she did these things. And Aeryn doesn't feel sorry for herself that she did them. It's handled in stark, unsympathetic way. She did this. And then it has her saying "I did this. It grieves me that I did this. I cannot undo it, but I can try to learn from it and take a journey to become better. Will you take that journey with me?" ... and I end the ep simply loving her. She did something horrible. Recognized it was horrible. Admits it was horrible and there there is no excuse. Apologizes to the one person she can apologize to. And then says "But I've learned from this and I'm now trying to be a better person."

Buffy on the other hand, her mistakes, on the rare occasions that they are openly acknowledged, are treated as "but she was in a bad place. See all the terrible things that happened to her. That's why she did these bad things, so that's okay, right?" Um... no. It's not okay. It's too bad she has all these bad circumstances but it's not okay that she did it. And if she doesn't acknowledge that, if she doesn't own her own responsibility for it. If she doesn't face up to her own culpability, then I don't think she learned squat. And I'm not going to feel sorry for her mistakes.

Learning of Buffy's pitiable situation is motivation, it isn't justification. Somehow, ME thought that because they made Buffy's life tough, it gave her a free pass on her actions... and it really doesn't work that way.


I swear, I had this vision, after "Chosen" went off the air, of what Buffy might be like ten years in the future...

Your vision was similar to my own. My vision was Buffy sitting in the middle of a living room of a suburban ranch house crying on the phone to Willow because her husband just asked for a divorce. She just can't understand why men leave her and why her relationships never work out (despite marrying some successful "normal" guy who behaved like Bewitched Darren II not allowing her to use her strength because he was intimidated. And who also couldn't deal with Buffy's emotional unavailability and coldness. So Buffy weeps about yet another failed relationship never realizing that unhappiness comes from within and that she set the whole thing up to fail by choosing mates based on appearances and alternating denying herself and being a bitch within the relationship. It never crosses her mind that "My goodness, young lady, maybe part of the problem is you."

[spacedoutlooney.livejournal.com]

I unfortunately have only seen bits and pieces of Farscape, and I don't remember if I've seen the episode you mention, but what you're describing sounds like the rest of the scoobies in season 7. They all acknowledged I *publicly* their wrong doings, learned from them, and tried to make amends where they could. I looked up to Xander and Willow and Dawn and company at the end.

While Buffy made amends (treating Spike better, working out the mom/sister thing with Dawn) and I *think* she learned from her mistakes (or at least tried to, I'm trying to be optimistic), she never publicly (to the Scoobies) acknowledged the things she had done. Her therapy session with Holden was a start, but she dusted him right after, so her confession to him doesn't have that much weight. I feel like maybe Buffy felt she couldn't acknowledge her wrong doings as long as she was The Slayer, The Hero, because everyone was counting her to be strong and perfect. So I have this coda scene in my head (and I've read a couple fics that do the same thing) in which Buffy addresses a laundry list of issues with the gang because now she feels she can.

I sort of wonder whether the show was arguing that being The Slayer was a metaphor for arrested adolescence, like unsouled vampirism. If you expect your life to be short and brutal, then you aren't very inspired to work out your issues.

[spacedoutlooney.livejournal.com]

It's like choosing a friend, in some ways. You like some people. You dislike others. It's not so much about who was better or worse, it's about what flaws and mistakes, choices and actions fit what you can accept and like. I grew to dislike Buffy -- because of the specific ways her flaws played out and because of her choices.

Nice post. I like a lot of what you say, particularly this bit about liking or not liking characters being like choosing a friend. Personally, I'm trying to appreciate the show for what it is rather than wishing it were different, and when it comes to Buffy's character, that takes real effort on my part.

I want to like Buffy, I really do. I started watching Buffy via 5th season re-runs on FX, and the reviews I read started talking about how they didn't like Buffy anymore. I really didn't like her either. So I thought when I bought the DVDs and started watching from the beginning that I could see why everyone liked Buffy. Then I discovered I disliked her from WTTH.

After thinking a little, it occurred to me why. JW designed Buffy to subvert the blonde stereotype in the horror movie who always got killed, because he felt sorry for her. I have no sympathy whatsoever for the blonde chick in the horror genre and identify with her not in the slightest bit, so the deck's already stacked against her when it comes to Buffy's character being some one I could like. I'm all for the Girl Power aspects of the show, but when it comes to creating a heroine that I can look up to, JW failed.

I would also like to see SMG in a role that I liked, because I get the feeling that she played Buffy as an variation on herself and I don't think I like her as an actress. Or like, if Julie Benz had actually been cast as Buffy would I like Buffy because I like Julie Benz? I wonder.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

JW designed Buffy to subvert the blonde stereotype in the horror movie who always got killed, because he felt sorry for her. I have no sympathy whatsoever for the blonde chick in the horror genre and identify with her not in the slightest bit

That's one of my primary stumbling blocks with Buffy as well. I tend to think her size 0, five foot nothing tiny girl with superpower self was supposed to be some form of empowerment for women. We were supposed to get off on her being strong enough to beat up people.

The problem is I was never a petite thing. I grew up as the tallest girl in the class. I was strong. I never felt defenseless. Growing up, because I was so much taller (5'10" by fifth grade) I was consistently lectured about not using strength as an unfair advantage, that you don't try to overpower people just because you could. So actually Buffy's reliance solely on physical overpowering others never worked for me. Her kicking everyone's ass wasn't wish fulfillment for me, it looked like abuse of power to me.

Buffy was never my proxy on screen. Her superstrength wasn't wish fulfillment for me, so rather than saying "oh yeah!" I tended to think, "abuse of power!" when she was so proud of violence as way to solve problems. It was one thing to beat the bad guys. But resorting to violence in every situation, even against her allies (she hit not only Spike but Angel and Faith when they were on her side) just made me think that she issues that needed to be addressed. I didn't get off on it.

[sunryse00.livejournal.com]

I saw that post and passed it up because it's a losing battle. Those that think Buffy and the show was the absolute greatest thing there was will never understand why some people weren't happy with Buffy or the story. And given where and how it ended there is no way to ever make it better for viewers that weren't satisfied.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

That's why when the "I want to debate this point by point," came up I kept thinking "I don't."

We aren't going to change people's POV at this late stage of the game. And I don't want to make someone else unhappy with what they got. I don't agree with many of their points, but I don't feel that anything is served by my trying to force them to change their POV. And, since I don't agree with their points, they really aren't going to change my view. I think my view is reasonable, if I didn't it wouldn't be my opinion. So, really, I had no motivation to debate the subject. I'm happy that they were satisfied. I wasn't. I'm okay with that... why can't they be?

[paratti.livejournal.com]

Sums it up.

And I've been depressed. I'm still responsible for my actions, both to myself and others. It's not an excuse for abuse.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

See so much of the discussions seem to be that "Buffy did this because she was depressed or in a bad place or, or, or..."

Well... yeah. I'm not arguing that she wasn't. And yeah, it makes sense. And yeah, it's within character. But that's motivation, that's not justification.

She was depressed. I recognize that. I saw that too.

She used some else to take her self hate out on them. That's not depression, that's something wrong. And giving me her motivation for doing it isn't going to change its wrongness. It doesn't make it okay.

Trying to make me pity her isn't going to make me respect her. I feel sorry for Buffy, but that doesn't make me like her.

[shapinglight]

Very much in two minds about Buffy, as you probably know. I'm always caught between what I saw on screen, which is pretty much what you saw and didn't please me much or make me like her, and knowing what I was supposed to be seeing (and might have if SMG had been a bit less cold) and the character's extenuating circumstances.

I'm not happy with her story if I believe one of the things that could be interpreted at the end of Chosen, which was, as thedeadlyhook says above, that she turned into a shallow brittle person who was only interested in shopping and forgot Spike five minutes after he died for her. In order for her story to be emotionally satisfying and for one to feel any hope that she would one day grow up and be a better person and get over her traumas, then you have to believe that she really did love Spike and that his death kind of 'healed her', and somehow, I just can't gather that evidence from what we saw.

And you're right about the depression. It's a reason, but never an excuse.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I tend to see Buffy as broken. I'm sorry that she got so twisted up. There was an innocent girl there in the early seasons, and she had potential. But that girl went through a lot. And she turned into someone I can't like. She didn't have to turn out that way. She could have made different choices.

I feel sorry for Buffy on many scores. I don't deny that terrible things happened to her. So I can be moved to pity her on occasion. But I don't like the way she faced those obstacles. I don't like the way she never accepted responsibility for her own actions and choices. And for that reason, I can feel sorry for Buffy, but in most things I can't respect her or like her.

Again I find myself looking over at Farscape and Crichton's line in Season 4 saying "I trust you with my life, but not my heart."

Buffy would save people's lives. But she couldn't be trusted with people's feelings.

[pelinxf.livejournal.com]

Excellent. I think there is a word I don't agree here. It sums up my feelings about the character.

I always go for the dark, flawed characters. My problem with her comes from the lack of growing up. I was never allowed to see a true regret, a true amend, a true evidence of the maturity she should have reaching through the years. I understand the depression, I understand the cruelty but I don't understand the lack of regret.

Still had some foolish hope for her after Chosen but TGIQ finally nailed the coffin for me. She wasn't going to be the woman she could have. She had all the potential but she just let it slip from her hands.

PS: Loved your XF comments. Totally agree.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I will forever and always love Mulder and Scully in all their flawed glroy.

Buffy...sigh.

Yes, she was depressed. I know she was depressed. But depression is one thing. Her actions were choices. I feel bad for the things that happened to her that were out of her control. But the worst things that happened were her own choices... which she seemed incapable of owning. Even when she tried to she (and ME) would couple it with excuses for why we should feel sorry for her and somehow feeling sorry for her was supposed to take the place of her owning her own actions and learning from them.

[gamiila.livejournal.com]

This:

Yes, Buffy was depressed. . . but she was also fucked up. These are two different issues that happen to compound one another. Abusers are depressed. Depression doesn't explain abuse. Kids and postal workers who go on mass murdering sprees are depressed, depression isn't the cause of the murdering spree. Depression is a state. Taking that depression out on someone else is a choice. Buffy was depressed. How she coped with it, was a choice. I don't dislike her for being depressed. I dislike her choices.


and the friend analogy, exactly illustrate my feelings on the subject. So glad to see someone finally put it into words so eloquently.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I do admit the thing that keeps coming back to me is Dead Things. The first time I saw it, I was willing to forgive because of her tears at the end. Then I saw the next ep where she looked at Spike's damaged face and didn't even seem embarrassed. My reaction was "OMG! Those tears at the end of Dead Things were for herself! Not for what she had done to him." Buffy never owning up to the fact that those actions were hers and hers alone, that Spike didn't "make her do these things, and that beating hims was NOT okay, and NOT his fault and actually acknowledging that openly and with some remorse for having done it... that's one thing that I never felt I got from Buffy. She never acknowledged that she did this. SHe got close in CWDP, but she still made it about Spike's being "twisted" and she admitted it to someone who didn't count.

Buffy's saying to Wood "I've never been evil."

Um, well, excuse me, Buffy. But beating the shit out of your lover is domestic abuse and that falls under some level of "evil" to me.

Spike screwed up MASSIVELY in Seeing Red. But Spike owned up to that and felt remorse for that and was shamed by that. . .so I find that I forgive him.

I consider the abuse in Dead Things JUST as horrific as the AR, and yet somehow Buffy never once actually owned up to that. And that's an obstacle with Buffy that always makes me suspicious of Buffy. If she owned it, and how inexcusable it was then I would trust her more. Buffy's insistence that Spike "made her do these things" meant that she never really learned the lessons that I thought she needed to and it's one of the things I least like about the character.

[spacedoutlooney.livejournal.com]

I actually see an expression of horror and regret when she realized what she was doing, so much so that she couldn't face the reality of what she had done so she ran off. It's pretty quick, and sort of blink and you'll miss it sort of thing.

I haven't wrapped my brain around everything yet, so I'm not sure what exactly Buffy was crying about at the end of Dead Things, but I agree that it wasn't about beating the crap out of Spike. I mean, it's possible to think that at the time, but future episodes don't support that. She's probably having a break down about 20 million other things. One of my peeves is also that the alley beating and the balcony scene (I assume that Buffy was uncomfortable about this) from Dead Things were never adequately addressed on screen. I can buy them not being addressed in season 6, since the relationship was in that destructive mode and can only imagine that Buffy and Spike talked about it off screen (which it's implied happened a lot) in season 7.

Her "I've never been evil" comment totally stood out for me too; I think we were meant to take note of that.

I'm liking this discussion thread BTW; it's sort of somewhere between "I love Buffy" and "I hate Buffy"

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

On first seeing Dead Things my reaction was quite different than what it was post OaFA.

I actually liked the ep Dead Things, and I thought Buffy's breakdown at the end showed her beginning to recognize the horror of what she had done and how badly she had spun out of control. If they had made her then BETTER the next week, and just... if she just would have seemed embarrassed when faced with Spike's bruises my feelings wouldn't be as horrified now. It was seeing her complete non-reaction to Spike's injuries the next week that made me re-examine what she REALLY had said at the end of Dead Things. Her inability to be better in the wake of Dead Things made me look at her actions far less charitably.

She could (probably) have gotten away with it if she had owned that she had done it, Spike didn't "make her do these things." And if she had in the subsequent episode shown contrition and shame for having done it. The lack of follow-up is what ruins it.

[gamiila.livejournal.com]

When I first saw Buffy whale on Spike in Dead Things, her callousness in walking away and leaving him there in a helpless state shocked me more than the AR in Seeing Red. The difference was Spike's genuine remorse immediately after, expressed in that scene with Clem in his crypt (along with the fact that I could sort of see the desperation that had driven him before) -- Buffy's tears at the end of Dead Things were, as you say, her feeling pity for herself; not her recognising that her actions had been wrong in the most fundamental way possible, and sincerely regretting them. And, as far as I could see, all through the rest of that series and the next, she never once took any responsibility for them. She didn't acknowledge the abuse, she didn't talk about it, and she didn't learn from it either. Whereas before, I'd always been fairly neutral in my feelings towards Buffy; from the latter part of S6 onwards, I started to positively dislike her. I wouldn't want to be fiends with someone so self-righteous, callous, and cruel.

And another thing that sticks in my craw about the AR: time after time, over the course of the show, Buffy is shown to be physically stronger than Spike. Yet when he struggles with her in her bathroom, all of a sudden she turns into this weak woman whose only recourse is to burst into tears? Oh puh-lease!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Oh, I hate how Marti decided that Buffy was suddenly the weak, weeping woman. It rang false on SO many levels. And it reeked to me of (in relation to what thedeadlyhook said) wanting us to feel sorry for Buffy. Rather than having her own up to her mistakes thus getting the audience back on her side, they decided to make us feel sorry for her to get us back on her side. Um... doesn't work. Feeling sorry for her isn't the same as respecting her. I was sorry about what happened in Seeing Red... it didn't make me like her one bit more. That's a difference that Marti didn't seem to grasp.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

Buffy's saying to Wood "I've never been evil"

How about when she was going to kill her friends and family in Normal Again? I thought she was pretty much evil while doing that no matter how screwed up she was.

[shiny-n-new.livejournal.com]

Checking the date, I see you wrote this way back in the day, but I *had* to comment and say that you're one of the very few people who have been able to perfectly articulate the reason I came to despise Buffy as a character. I get frustrated with people who talk about how much they love Buffy, and like you, I usually choose not to argue, because what's the point? But it festers.

I love flawed heroes (I love Angel, after all), but like you said, Buffy's flaws weren't that she was depressed and troubled. Faith had flaws. Buffy was a bitch, to put it simply. Buffy has always consistently been selfish, and self-righteous, and believed that she was right and everyone else was wrong. But before Season 6, people at least pointed it out to her and were not villified. She had moments where she realized, "I'm going about this all wrong."

Season 6 was the breaking point for me, and viewing her behavior towards everyone just cemented my dislike of her. The schizophrenic, teeth-grindingly hideous relationship with Spike did not help. Of course, come season 7 I began to actually hate her, but that's a rant for a different time :)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Thanks, though I can't help but be curious about how you ran across such an old post. And I can't help but be amused with myself when I re-read this old post and saw that I said that I'd never write post-Chosen Buffy. My current WIP is post-Chosen Buffy {albeit 17 years post-Chosen (and post-apocalyptic to boot) so that I would have ample space for her to change. :)}

[shiny-n-new.livejournal.com]

I was readinfg through hello_spikey's post on why 'Seeing Red' pissed her off, and someone mentioned you in the comments.
I've found plenty of fanfic versions of Buffy that I love, but the real one never stops being, well, Buffy. I was hoping that Season 8 Buffy would be a huge improvement, since the TV series seemed to indicate she was on the road towards better mental health. Unfortunately, I'm still violently disliking her, which is why I'm stealing the comics off the Internet :)