Is Cecily Halfrek?

[shipperx]

I feel sort of Carrie Bradshaw/ Sex in the City-like starting a post with a question (and since I've been watching the series for the first time [yeah, too stingy for HBO] I probably should do a post on the subject sometime). Anyway, is William's Cecily the demon Halfrek?

I mean clearly in my current WIP, Cecily is Halfrek and Halfrek is Cecily. But in the larger scope of the Whedonverse, is Cecily Halfrek?

I honestly hadn't realized that there were such strong feelings on the subject until I read a debate about it on BAPS a few weeks ago. I even saw an icon about it on someone's LJ where the icon explained various points of canon and the icon flashed a point blank, stated as a fact "Halfrek was not Cecily" dictum as if there really is a definitive answer.

Now, personally, I can go either way. Yeah, I wrote Perfect Vengeance as Cecily being Halfrek, but that's because it was a really good way to explain time travel. Plus I had one of those flashes of inspiration about the plot and it hinged on Halfrek being Cecily. But that's fanfic. In the grand scheme of Buffyverse canon, I see this as a point that can easily be argued either way.

The thing is, there are people who are surprisingly passionate on the subject as both the icon and the BAPS debate make clear. Now, the BAPS debate started with discussion of the upcoming Peter David "Spike" comic. (Spoiler Info in Peter David's Post Here: http://peterdavid.malibulist.com/archives/002714.html ) Peter David is taking the stance that Cecily was Halfrek. This started a debate where many people stated categorically that Halfrek simply was not Cecily and that what's on the show in Season 7 proved it as canon.

I'm still shaking my head wondering how. The point many people make is that Halfrek existed in the Crimean war, which predates FFL and therefore Cecily could not possibly be Halfrek.

Um... how does that prove that Cecily wasn't Halfrek? It just means that she would have been a demon prior to FFL. . .which seems to be the gist of it. Some people are very attached to FFL being exactly as it was with Cecily being a vain young woman. Which, unquestionably, was the original intention of FFL. Yes, there are logistical problems with a Victorian lady having been a demon. But Anyanka inserted herself easily enough into Cordelia's life. So it isn't impossible for Halfek to have inserted herself into the lives of that particular circle of Victorian people. A lot of the resistance to the concept of Halfrek=Cecily is that people then seem to assume that Cecily's set-down of William and the subsequent vamping would have been part of some demonic vengeance. You know, even if she was Halfrek, nothing about the scene indicates it was anything but a carelessly cruel statement on Cecily's part. Even if she was Halfrek, it doesn't mean it was part of Vengeance. So I don't think Cecily's possible demonic status substantially effects William's story. I don't think Cecily OR Halfrek would have given a damn about William one way or another. He was just careless roadkill on the highway of life. So (for me) it's never been an issue. I honestly don't have any real investment either way. I can see them as separate or the same and it's purely within the context of the story in question.

I'm just curious about why so many people feel that there was a hard and fast answer to the question within the show. The Crimean War didn't prove anything (except someone on BAPS produced quotes from Drew Goddard that made me laugh because, lord, Mutant Enemy were idiots with history! Apparently, they had considered having Anyanka and Halfrek in the French Revolution, but that idea was dispensed because they didn't want to close off the avenue that Halfrek was indeed Cecily -- heck, there actually was an interview with Marti once where she said that Halfrek WAS Cecily. Anyway, according to Goddard they deliberately chose the Anyanka/Halfrek scene NOT to be in the French Revolution so as to not run contrary to FFL and the possibility that Halfrek was Cecily. So they chose the Russian Communist Revolution. . .

er. . .except the Crimean war wasn't the Communist Revolution, people! Bwha! Joss Shows + History = Non-Mixy.

So here we are with a lot of fans hanging a definitive "Cecily couldn't be Halfrek" on a scene set in a time period which was mis-identified by Mutant Enemy. Turns out that even when ME tries to think things through, they really weren't very careful about it. While trying to prevent contradicting FFL and OaFA... they "contradicted" FFL and OaFA, primarily because ME notoriously sucked at history. Heh.

Anyway, Perfect Vengeance aside, I have no emotional investment or hard, fast concept of whether Cecily was Halfrek or not. I think it's something fuzzy enough in the Whedonverse that solid arguments can be made either way and that there really isn't a definitive answer on the subject. I'm just sort of surprised that there are so many people think that canon is clear on the subject.

Then again, considering the canon debates (deathmatches) the Whedonverse regularly caused and causes, I can't imaging why I'm surprised that there's apparently controversy surrounding even bit characters like Cecily and/or Halfrek. :)

Comments

[spacedoutlooney.livejournal.com]

er. . .except the Crimean war wasn't the Communist Revolution, people! Bwha! Joss Shows + History = Non-Mixy.

If I'm thinking of the same comments from the DVD commentary, I don't think ME was confusing the Crimean war with the Communist Revolution, just that Anya and Halfreck were around during the Crimean War *and* they were were around during the Communist Revolution.

I agree with you about this being a silly thing for everyone to debate. Just make up your mind about what you think happened. Otherwise it'll make your brain hurt.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure where the quotes came from. But it seemed that Goddard was trying to keep it plausible that Cecily was Halfrek should they ever decide to write it that way... and then there's that Crimean War scene. So it seems even when trying to keep the option open they closed the door in many people's minds.

But I'm not entirely sure where the quotes came from. I had thought a Q&A at a con, but maybe it was the DVD. Not sure.

[sunryse00.livejournal.com]

Leave the Crimean War in/toss it out, whatever. I wanted Cecily to be Halfrek for the simple reason that it gives even more angst to William/Spike's story. How much more sad would it be that William died over someone else's vengence and was just, as you say, "careless roadkill on the highway of life". Spike isn't one for destiny or fate and I would like to think that because of a vengence demon he through off the destiny's and fates to make his own way and become what he did anyway. I think FFL was fine as it was, but throw in Helfrek and it gives it even more depth and meaning.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

That's sort of the stance I took with the fanfic. Yeah, Halfrek is there fore vengeance, but it wasn't related to William. He just happens to be standing in the middle of the road with the the mack truck of life barrels over him.

Strangely, it's nothing personal...


And, unintentional, due to the fact that it is time travel involved in the story, there is a question about fate. It's weird. Fate as a concept seems to reappear a lot in my fanfic writing. It was a strong part of the conflict my X-Files fic "Mobius." It unintentionally made it's way into my kinkathon fic. And it's one of the central points in my ever-unfinished Spike-fic. Although, the point is almost always that you make your own fate. (Poor Spike in my kinkathon-fic is stuck between a rock and a hard place though. It's that damn time travel paradox.)

[fishsanwitt]

I never thought about it - until I saw that episode about Buffy's birthday, where they're all locked in the house. The *moment* Halfrek said 'William?' - that was it for me. Cecily+Halfrek.

I never had a problem with the flashbacks in 'Selfless'.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

There's a quote somewhere from Marti that yes, definitely the intention was that Cecily was Halfrek and that's what that moment was in OaFA. And there are quotes from JM that no, Cecily definitely wasn't Halfrek. So, like a lot of ME... who really knows. Goddard seem to think they wanted to preserve at least the possibility that she was. To me it seems a strong possibility that they intended the two characters to become one.

[acristleo.livejournal.com]

I have always been in the camp of Cecily/Halfrek being one and the same. I think you can wank it any way that you want though, so no involvement in deathmatches here ;)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Heh. What's the Buffy-fandom without a few blood feuds?

I've always thought it was distinctly possible that Cecily was Halfrek. But I can see where it's debateable. I'm just confused by those who say it absolutely couldn't be so.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I once had someone lecture me about the "fact" that Cecily was Halfrek. I pointed out that there is no definitive textual proof, but she wouldn't let up. People like to think that they have inside info that no one else is aware of; it makes them feel special.

There really is no proof. Although, personally, the idea that they are the same irks me. I'm not quite sure why. Maybe because it corrupts the canonical foundation of a story I loved (season five) with elements of a story I loathed (seasons six and seven).

Plus, that whole FFL party interaction thing was so classic... maybe not historically, but in terms of personality and social dynamics it was really relevant. (It totally reminded me of, like, junior high school.) Adding in this whole "plus she was really a vengeance demon!" just kind of spoils the metaphor and trivializes the real story behind it with an inane distraction.

Uh, nothing against people who like the idea, though. I just don't.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

See, I sort of split the difference. It really doesn't matter to me much one way or the other whether Halfrek was Cecily. However this:

Plus, that whole FFL party interaction thing was so classic... maybe not historically, but in terms of personality and social dynamics it was really relevant. (It totally reminded me of, like, junior high school.)

Does matter to me. It's funny what we do in fanfic to maintain our own personal preferences. It's the same reason why I have Spike refer to himself as a "freak" in the fanfic. I wasn't interested in a "Spike becomes William" story. I don't get into Spike as human-fics. So I made it Spike in William and ended up with Spike as some weird hybrid to maintain the whole "outsider"/Freak aspect... not for a plot reason but just because I wanted that way. (Him calling himself a quadroon however, wasn't accidental. I'm still fretting under the Buffyverse classism. It was a large part of my motivation -- and why Buffy had to be a servant -- and Spike as minority continued to be important to me, just because I preferred him that way.

Same thing with your comment about the dynamic of FFL. I really don't care whether Cecily was Halfrek. But I really don't want William's being turned because she was sent to seek vengeance on him. I liked William just being a victim of her careless cruelty. And there was, again, classism involved. That's why I had Halfrek's "Humans are monkey's who think too highly of themselves." I like the whole "you're beneath me" thing. While I don't care whether she's Cecily or Halfrek, I did like how that worked with her prejudice preventing her from "seeing" William. Even in fanfic, even with Halfrek, I felt I had to maintain that even though the kink had to have "Cecily eating her heart out" with regard to Spike. Well, that's also fixed with the whole "freak" aspect. Halfrek might have a thing for the demon Spike... but she really wouldn't care one way or the other about William. William was human. Vey. Humans are beneath her.

Weird the convolutions we'll put ourselves through to maintain certain personal quirks about the story. :)

[eddy-1985.livejournal.com]

I don't really care either way, cause its a comic and not canon. But I've always been of the opinion that they are not the same person. That it was simply a in-joke, I remember there being a interview from one of the writers stating this. Later when Spike saw Halfrek in human face (entropy) it confirmed my thoughts that they weren't hte same because surely wouldn't he recognize her in human face this time(she was in demon face in OAFA)? I don't think Spike would forget the face of the woman who changed his life.

Of course if Joss came out and called it canon, still wouldn't matter to me. Since so much of the Buffyverse contradicts itself and makes damn little sense now.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I've seen totally contradictory quotes on the subject with James saying it was an in-joke, Marti saying they were the same character, and Goddard somewhere in between the two extremes. So I've always saw it as a point of possibilities. It's possible that Halfrek is Cecily and it's possible that they were two different people. And it's really up to interpretation because I saw nothing on screen that made it an absolute one way or the other. I know that in fanfic I've written it both ways. And, like you, I don't really see the comic as canon so it really isn't a huge deal to me if in a comic they say they are. We already have the novel "These Our Actors" which says the exact opposite. I just prefer to think of it as an amorphous subject that is open to debate in the future but that there's nothing definitive in canon. Leaves more possibilities for non-canon stories to explore.