Why all the hate?

[shipperx]

Intersting post on i09:

Why do we hate so many female characters?

Postman,

Reading the recent online complaints about Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., one of the biggest issues with the series is one I with which greatly agree: Skye adds nothing to the show. This seems to be an ongoing problem with series of the last few years. There's Chloe on SGU, Laurel Lance on Arrow (weirdly her sister Sara and Sara's sidekick Sin are much better characters after just four episodes), or Gwen on Torchwood. They're not like Skyler White or Andrea on The Walking Dead, who are fully fleshed out characters hated for their bad decision making.

These characters are unlikeable because of a combination of poor character development and weak acting. The writers seem bored with them too, giving them stories that are disconnected from the events. The classic example for me is SGU where Chloe, while being stuck on a derelict spaceship on the other side of the universe, is worried that all her friends back home are phony bitches. Or Laurel's drinking problem. Or everything about Skye.

So what gives? I get that society has historically written women as damsels or objects meant to be rescued by the dashing hero, but the days of Season 1 Counselor Troi have passed us by. For every Major Kira or Sarah Connor there seems to be two Charlie Mathesons. Is this a gender thing, or general, poor character writing? What would you recommend to TV showrunners about giving us women characters we can care about?

There are a ton of reasons why people find certain female characters problematic. You've already hit upon two of them, which is to say poor writing and poor acting. Skye in Agents of SHIELD is a prime example of this; she doesn't really have any defining characteristics, she's completely unconvincing as a brilliant hacker, and yet somehow the team is bringing her along everywhere and she's the audience's surrogate. It's a recipe for annoyance, if not disaster. But to be fair, all the characters on Agents of SHIELD are equally poorly written — Melinda May gets away with it for being mysterious and badass, while we have a long history with Agent Coulson, but imagine Coulson's "Tahiti" mystery applied to, say Ward and think how much of a shit you would not give.

Another problem is when storytellers create female characters to be love interests and nothing else — meaning they're one-dimensional (and completely boring if their on-screen relationship isn't clicking). This is Laurel Lance's problem on Arrow. She was fine as Oliver's object of affection, while she was dating his best friend, but in season two they had to cool off the relationship. This made sense storytelling-wise, but left Laurel with nothing to do. Now, I actually liked her drinking storyline, because 1) it gave her a dimension beyond her relationship with Ollie, and 2) it seemed to be to be a very reasonable response to all the horrible shit she'd so recently been through. But compare that to Felicity and Black Canary and Ollie' mom and the Huntress and even Thea, and all the interesting facets those women have beyond their relationships with male characters.

But sometimes the problem is the fans, who are often unwilling to give female characters slack that they seemingly give to male characters. This seems to me to be a pretty recent phenomenon, and it's kind of disturbing. Skyler White from Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones' Sansa Stark are the two most prominent examples of this. These characters are largely hated, despite being well-written and well-acted and three-dimensional, and as far as I can determine they're hated because of these reasons

For instance, people seem to hate Skyler in Breaking Bad because she was "a bitch" to Walt in the beginning, then became a hypocrite for reaping the benefits of Walt's meth operation while disapproving of it (I'm only midway through season 2, so I'm using this excellent Esquire article for help here). First of all, Skyler was nagging Walt 1) when her husband was constantly and obviously hiding things from her, and 2) when she discovered her husband was running an illegal meth operation. As for the latter, why is Skyler spending Walt's meth money a bigger issue than Walt running a goddamn methlab in the first place? It seems to me that the problem people have with Skyler is that people see Walt as the protagonist, and somehow think that makes him a hero, and thus Walt's irritation with Skyler becomes the audience's, despite the fact that Walt is a goddamn monster.

Sansa is hated even more, and it just boggles me. This is a girl who was fed stories of beautiful princesses and brave knights all her life, gets told she's going to marry the prince of the whole damn country, and then had her beliefs and her entire life slowly, methodically destroyed. Who wouldn't be upset by that? What teenager wouldn't be devastated by this, male or female? People compare Sansa to Arya, who seemingly holds up "better" than Sansa, but the amount of danger Arya is in never comes close to Sansa's. Arya was never beaten in front of the court by the knights she had always been told protect people. Arya is trying survive on the run, but Sansa is the most vulnerable pawn in the Game of Thrones, which is way more dangerous than serving Tywin Lannister wine at night. I understand all of Sansa's anguish, and that she's still holding it together, playing the game and even just surviving at this point only shows her immense strength.

Two other female characters I know of who were so hated were The Walking Dead's Lori and Andrea. Now, I'd say Lori was written terribly, because I can't imagine that any decent writer would intentionally make a character that unlikeable and inconsistent. Andrea just turned really preachy. But these characters are loathed with a passion that the male characters just don't get, and I'm as guilty of that as anybody. And now I wonder why I was so passionate about hating them, along with so many other people, because Dale, Shane and even Rick were also pretty annoying, but no one hated them like they did Lori and Andrea. (In retrospect, I think Lori's turn in season three as a woman who knew she fucked up badly was pretty good, but I understand it was too little, too late for most viewers after her previous shenanigans.) It actually makes me a bit uncomfortable now.

So there are problems behind the scenes, in the scenes, and out in the audience. Writers should always refer to the Bechdel test, to make sure that their female characters are more than their romantic relationships. Audiences should try to step back and make sure they're cutting female characters the same slack as male characters. And actors… take acting lessons, or something, I guess.

All of that plus... fandom can be really sexist sometimes.

Comments

[shapinglight]

Yep.

I had no idea Sansa was hated. I can't imagine who could hate her, frankly.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I think book readers tend to forget that SHE IS A CHILD!

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

A lot of people blame her for Ned's death. It wasn't as clear in the show, but my husband has explained that in the books Sansa kind of ratted Ned out causing him to be arrested in the first place.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I'd probably categorize her as more 'controversial' than 'hated' inasmuch as she seems to be a focal point for debate on women's roles. There are some fans that defend her to an extreme of villifying other characters in defense of her (seriously, I've run across some extreme Tyrion hate based on his simply marrying her at all. Look, it was a marriage of convenience foisted on them both. He's older (28 in the books) but if they thought that he had a choice in the matter either, they weren't paying much attention to the context of the situation. Arranged marriages for land and power are the way their entire kingdom rolls. And the Lannisters were never going to allow her to be turned over to the Tyrells. Just... never would'a happened.

Neither Sansa nor Tyrion were happy about this. Both had moments of ill grace. But, all things considered, they both do their best to muddle through and never actively try to harm one another. In Westeros... things could be a hell of a lot worse (and usually are).

NEITHER of them is 'the bad guy' in that marriage. Just humans in an unhappy situation. The tragic part is that both of them are desperate for someone around who doesn't have ulterior motives and I was always wishing they could become allies in the books. {Shae in the book is far more mercenary than the show's Shae, who genuinely loves Tyrion}. Understandably, Sansa has difficulty seeing any Lannister, even Tyrion as a potential ally.)

And then there are those who despise Sansa for whatever it is they despise her for. (I always took her as a sheltered, naive girl. Her flaws --such as they are --never seemed to go beyond that to me).

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

My comment was "lack of female writers."

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

This too.

This especially in the "created as love interest but with no personality, purpose, or point of view". There's definitely a woman as object/prize aspect that appears a great deal that's irritating as all hell.

[elisi]

Torchwood fandom didn't like Gwen, because they thought she got in the way of Jack/Ianto. Mind you, initially she got a stupid storyline, but by the end of the show she was pretty darn kickass. A bit like a cross between Amy and Rose characterwise, but with guns. Or maybe people just didn't like her gappy teeth? They can all go jump in a lack for all I care. *shrugs* Also, Amy and her skirts. People will use anything as an excuse.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Amy's skirts are... whatever. Seriously, that's a thing to complain about? *pfft*

As to Gwen, I never watched Torchwood enough to really know, my impression of the fandom hate however definitely had the whiff of shippers being defensive about a woman perhaps, maybe, distantly MIGHT threaten their ship in any regard whatsoever.

The same happens to every single female that appears on Supernatural.

Most disturbingly of all are the Supernatural RPShippers who take it so far that not only do they ship the actors together but who vehemently INSIST that the actors are in love, that there's a great PR conspiracy covering it up, and that their wives and children are all CONSPIRACY! With their going on hate campaigns against the actors real-life wives and girlfriends. Seriously, shippers, GET A GRIP!

[sp23.livejournal.com]

Oddly enough, I'm probably one of the few that didn't hate Lori. I didn't like her much, but I understood that she got herself into an untenable position when she allowed Shane to become her lover simply so she would have protection for her child. At least, that's how I read it. Of course for the Lori haters it doesn't help that Rick & Lori were having marital problems before the zombie apocalypse, so she's automatically branded a bitch *and* an adulteress. As for Andrea, she just ended up getting on my last nerve because she was so fucking stupid. I was sorry that she got killed before she wised up though. However, I did loathe Shane.

I'm way behind on GoT so I only have season one to go on, but even by the end of that season, I began to feel great sympathy for Sansa.

And I loved Gwen!

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

+1

;-)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I think Sansa's greatest hurdle is structural, she's a very young girl without power in a situation where she's a pawn. Her situation makes her only mode of resistance passive.

People become frustrated wanting her to do something. But I rather think the point is that there is very little that she can do... except hold her tongue because she's in an extremely dangerous situation. She's a very interior character for that reason. Half her POV seems to be her reminding herself that her only defense is to keep her thoughts to herself and remain polite no matter what, which takes an amazing constitution given all that she must witness and go through, but which can frustrate an audience who craves her to take action. But then, I keep wanting to point out to critics that in the book SHE IS TWELVE YEARS OLD!

What do people expect? The fact that she perseveres without allies is in itself an amazing feat.

[txvoodoo.livejournal.com]

I don't think I branded Lori as a bitch - I thought she *was* one. :D She was manipulative, and even after Rick came back, she played him & Shane off one another for her own ...whatever the heck psychodrama she was playing out. I flat out didn't like her at all. I get her protecting her son, but she was kind of awful to him, too.

I could care less about adultery in fictional characters, but the game playing was over the top.

Andrea was a big waste of character, and I was annoyed that she took up so much plot time AND was so stupid.

[queenofattolia.livejournal.com]

Sorry; Lori on WD was an abysmally written character played by a pretty terrible actress. Very, very easy to loathe her, but if she had been played by a good actress the character might have been salvageable. Andrea made absolutely no sense as a character, but then again, neither did Shane, and I hated them equally. Actually, a lot of WD characters make no sense, regardless of gender.

But your point is well taken. The only new female character I like is Abbie from Sleepy Hollow, but even she is falling prey to Scully-like 'ship wish-fulfillment from fandom, and this might make the producers change her. Feh. Fandom ruins everything. I think SH still might pass the Bechdel test, though.

I'm just surprised that after all this time no one is twigging to what I now see as a given: Whedon and his minions really DON'T LIKE women UNLESS they're cartoonish "kick ass!" pretty girls or watery waifs (or both, in the case of River Tam). Really, it's beyond obvious now.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Back in ye olden days I was part of the Scully-fic community. Scully was beloved in her own right (and IMHO rightfully so). In that community it was permissible to ship her with anyone or no one, just that she be her own person.

Love Abbie too.

Totally agree with you about Whedon and I find the comics to have a very sexist subtext. VERY SEXIST.

Never watched The Walking Dead so I have no opinion. Zombies freak me out.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

Add someone else who thinks Gwen was good (apart from in the first season when she was supposedly "the heart" but showed little sign of it, but everyone was written as a despicable piece of shit in the first season). The Gwen hate came from people who were transparently the type of misogynistic slash fans who think that *any* woman who has any sexual tension with one of "their" guys must be an evil Canon Sue who deserves to die.

[txvoodoo.livejournal.com]

yup.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Never really watched Torchwood (sampled a few eps but that was all), but that was sort of the impression I had of the fandom from afar.

And this x10 for the Supernatural community. I actually pity any female actress or character that appears on that show.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

This seems to me to be a pretty recent phenomenon

Uh... No. Pretty much every fandom I've experienced, barring *maybe* X-Files and that depended which circles you ran in, had this. Before Skyler there was Carmella Soprano who got the same reactions. This is the only commentary I can speak on because I don't watch the other shows, but that's not really telling the whole story at work on Breaking Bad.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Pretty much every fandom I've experienced,

Buffy. Girlfriend takes so much shit from every direction. I'm just sayin'....

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I did sort of roll my eyes at the writer considering this to be a 'new' phenomenon.

Er... no. No, this is really not new. Not at all.

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

Supernatural is another good example of that. The sheer hatred that fandom seems to have for any female character is both baffling and actually kind of scary.

LIke with Gwen from Torchwood getting in the way of fandom's favored ships is dangerous. Though I was irritated with Gwen for cheating Rhys with Owen of all people!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Supernatural is another good example of that. The sheer hatred that fandom seems to have for any female character is both baffling and actually kind of scary.


This. This. So much this.

The show's writing has very sexist underpining.

Then the fandom takes it and turns it up exponentially to, in some cases, out-and-out scary.

[txvoodoo.livejournal.com]

Excellent post, and this is one reason I'm glad I've disengaged with a lot of fandom commentary.

As far as Andrea and Lori though, I really do think it boils down to horrible, misogynistic writing. Except, well, they do a lot of bad writing for male characters, too, making ones who are supposed to be sympathetic not. They're only really good at plot, not characterization. And they hate everyone - which is a great way of making me hate everyone too. :D They also make their characters awfully stupid - good and evil characters a lot. I think I've spent 50% of each episode wanting to smack them upside the head saying "are you really THAT stupid?"

The funniest thing is who the 2 characters that seem to still be liked are Darryl and Glenn. Darryl is the most 3 dimensional character on the whole show. And I attribute a lot of Glenn love to the actor.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Zombies scare the bejeezus out of me. Seriously, they wig me out to the point that I can honestly say that I have never made it further than 3 minutes into a Walking Dead episode... and I've tried at least three times. I just can't do it. ::shudder::

[wildrider.livejournal.com]

Or you get good, competent, strong, well-written and well-acted female characters who get killed off or leave the series (Carter in Person of Interest and Ziva in NCIS)...

I always figured a lot of it has to do with the larger number of male writers in television.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

you get good, competent, strong, well-written and well-acted female characters who get killed off or leave the series

Or in other instances *side-eyes Bones*, female characters are "flanderized", dumbed-down, watered-down, tamed and domesticated until what made them interesting and awesome to me is gone.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

What I found the most interesting about this article - is all the characters listed that fans hate, I actually sort of liked.
Yup, one of the many reasons I'm not crazy about fandoms is they are incredibly sexist and misogynistic at times, particularly (and this is weird, I know) women. For some reason there are a lot of women out there who have a deep ingrained subconscious hatred of their own gender and have weirdly worshiped the male gender as being superior. (Poor deluded fools.)

* Skye on Marvel Agents of Shield - I honestly thought she was the only character worth anything on the series outside of possibly the pilot. Coulson didn't interest me at all. I honestly do not understand the appeal of that character. And all the other male characters? Forgettable. It's a really poorly written series.

* Skylar White on BB - one of the more interesting female characters, and brilliantly acted, she's a modern day Lady Macbeth - but a lot of women and men have issues with Lady Macbeth and strong, manipulative female characters.
It's ingrained misogyny and sexism.

* Gwen on Torchwood - my favorite character next to Tosh and Owen. (I will never understand the Ianto love.)

* Lori and Andrea on The Walking Dead. Actually liked both characters a great deal. Andrea was my favorite. I stopped watching shortly after both died. I can't stand Rick, the lead, Shane was a waste of space, and the others...god.

* Sansa - I actually do understand that one. GRRM writers her abominably in the first two books. There's three characters who are written really poorly, Sansa, Robb, and Ned. They come across as either stupid or whiny. It wasn't until Storm, that Sansa grew on me. Catelynn was another one who was written poorly in the first two books, but grows on me in the third. Theon...I despised, but I think I was supposed to? The problem is, you get stuck in these pov's in the books...and they are whiny, and you want out of them, now.
Davvos - the Onion King, was the other one.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I'm not crazy about fandoms is they are incredibly sexist and misogynistic at times, particularly (and this is weird, I know) women. For some reason there are a lot of women out there who have a deep ingrained subconscious hatred of their own gender and have weirdly worshiped the male gender as being superior. (Poor deluded fools.)

THIS cannot be said often enough, sadly; because it's true.

I think that for most girls and women the concept of being "good enough" is nonexistent or very hard-won. (This applies to boys and men as well but to a different degree. I've never met a man who says he hates his body; I've yet to meet a woman who won't tell you exactly what she thinks is wrong about her looks, her age, etc)

I think is that we are carefully trained to hate our own gender and hate ourselves (and if we dislike ourselves, how could we possibly be expected to like other women?) We absorb our mothers' anger and pain, which is passed down to us; we're bombarded by media images that tell us if ONLY we were perfect cooks and our whites were sparkling white; IF ONLY we were a few pounds thinner, a few years younger...and IF ONLY we were perfect mothers, or even wanted to be mothers (do we really or is that what's expected?), IF ONLY we gave in to the guys who wanted to sleep with us do we really or is that what's expected?) and so on....

We are not supposed to be angry, sad, imperfect, frustrated but we are; and we despise it in ourselves because deep down we're convinced it's not all right to feel that way or be that way. To be human.