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shipperxApparently at the Edinburgh Festival Q&A Joss was asked about the whole Spike Movie thing {insert usual Jossian wankage here. No real info we didn't know} except that he referred to it as putting together a writing team, so maybe he isn't just speaking to Minear? Here's hoping that Jane E is involved. (She worked with Minear on The Inside, right?). And I think Drew Goddard has been claiming that he has been begging Joss, so it wouldn't be a horrible thing to have Mr. Show Continuity Guy involved. . . that is if anything ever comes of this. And, frankly, at this point I still refuse to commit to it.
What will happen will happen. And what won't...won't.
ETA If anything truly concerns me about a possible Spike movie, it's that it's really doomed to disappointment in most quarters because it's not just the BtVS fandom that's fractured. The Spike fandom is fractured. I constantly find myself taking devil's advocate (or just plain arguing) positions on many story points with many people. I've seen posts of Spike fans declaring that a possible Spike movie "must respect Spike's love for Buffy". Okay, define respect. I think acknowleging Buffy as a great love (for Spike) that never worked out is respect. (I consider Spuffy to basically be over. Not all love stories get happy endings. Spuffy didn't. Neither did Bangel, BTW. We saw the end and it was Chosen and we saw the epilogue and that was The Girl in Question.) Still that's my personal POV. Most wanting "respect the Spuffy" tend to mean "reinforce Spuffy and maybe give it a hint of a happy ending, have Spike still committed to Buffy"... to which my reaction (and I'm sure some other fraction of fans) is "Oh, HELL NO! Let the poor vamp move on already!" (For myself, it doesn't even make logical sense for Spike to cling to Spuffy, because as much as people can debate whether or not Buffy did love Spike, the cold hard fact of the matter is that SPIKE didn't believe her. Plus, he knows she moved on with The Immortal. It would be kind of pathetic if all these years later he is still unable to move on. In my head, that's not romantic. That's sad.)
I'm not arguing what's a right or wrong concerning Spike, just that there are radically different views of what's appropriate for the character. It's almost laughable how completely Alane (on BAPS) and I disagree on possible Spike stories. I remember her being very upset about the whole Halfrek=Cecily thing in the PAD comic while I'm not only not upset about PAD choosing Cecily=Halfrek in a comic, but I am also writing a Halfrek=Cecily story. There's been a long debate on BAPS about whether a Spike movie should have Dru in it (in any capacity, mind you) and again loud pronouncements of "No! No way!" I honestly find it perplexing. Spike is something over 150 years old... 120 of which he spent with Dru. Yet there's the idea in some quarters that Dru isn't a 'personal' issue for Spike? What-huh? And again, I have to laugh because somewhere in my pile of languishing fic is the concept of a Post-NFA story with Dru/Spike/Illyria (and Angel) because I find the idea compelling.
It just goes to show how radically different people's concepts are. There's absolutely no way that any real Spike movie could fit the increasingly fractured Spike fandom's fancy. With canon gone, everyone has carved their own little niche where they themselves play (if they're still interested in Spike at all). A new canon movie isn't tailored to satisfy all these narrow, niche markets. Basically, at this point is there any way to satisfy Spike fans? I fear the answer is no.
ETA II: Rewatched the Sex in the City episodes on TBS last night where Carrie discovers Big in the Hamptons, having moved back from Paris without telling her, followed by the episode where he tells her that he's engaged. (Classic example of a guy saying he didn't want to commit which translated to "not wanting to commit to you") Anyway, I like those eps, but the irksome thing of the ending of the ep concerning Big's engagement was that really should have been the end of it. Despite the set-up of the Sex finale that made it superficially seem okay that she ended up with Big, she REALLY should never have become involved with him again. He really treated her terribly in earlier seasons. Really, this "true, destined love" and "soulmates" crap that TV tries to sell is...well... crap. Either it's a good relationship where people care about each other and thus it's a lasting one, or it's not. Nothing is destined, and there's a point where you've really broken someone else's heart too many times to be trusted with it yet again. Blech.
What will happen will happen. And what won't...won't.
ETA If anything truly concerns me about a possible Spike movie, it's that it's really doomed to disappointment in most quarters because it's not just the BtVS fandom that's fractured. The Spike fandom is fractured. I constantly find myself taking devil's advocate (or just plain arguing) positions on many story points with many people. I've seen posts of Spike fans declaring that a possible Spike movie "must respect Spike's love for Buffy". Okay, define respect. I think acknowleging Buffy as a great love (for Spike) that never worked out is respect. (I consider Spuffy to basically be over. Not all love stories get happy endings. Spuffy didn't. Neither did Bangel, BTW. We saw the end and it was Chosen and we saw the epilogue and that was The Girl in Question.) Still that's my personal POV. Most wanting "respect the Spuffy" tend to mean "reinforce Spuffy and maybe give it a hint of a happy ending, have Spike still committed to Buffy"... to which my reaction (and I'm sure some other fraction of fans) is "Oh, HELL NO! Let the poor vamp move on already!" (For myself, it doesn't even make logical sense for Spike to cling to Spuffy, because as much as people can debate whether or not Buffy did love Spike, the cold hard fact of the matter is that SPIKE didn't believe her. Plus, he knows she moved on with The Immortal. It would be kind of pathetic if all these years later he is still unable to move on. In my head, that's not romantic. That's sad.)
I'm not arguing what's a right or wrong concerning Spike, just that there are radically different views of what's appropriate for the character. It's almost laughable how completely Alane (on BAPS) and I disagree on possible Spike stories. I remember her being very upset about the whole Halfrek=Cecily thing in the PAD comic while I'm not only not upset about PAD choosing Cecily=Halfrek in a comic, but I am also writing a Halfrek=Cecily story. There's been a long debate on BAPS about whether a Spike movie should have Dru in it (in any capacity, mind you) and again loud pronouncements of "No! No way!" I honestly find it perplexing. Spike is something over 150 years old... 120 of which he spent with Dru. Yet there's the idea in some quarters that Dru isn't a 'personal' issue for Spike? What-huh? And again, I have to laugh because somewhere in my pile of languishing fic is the concept of a Post-NFA story with Dru/Spike/Illyria (and Angel) because I find the idea compelling.
It just goes to show how radically different people's concepts are. There's absolutely no way that any real Spike movie could fit the increasingly fractured Spike fandom's fancy. With canon gone, everyone has carved their own little niche where they themselves play (if they're still interested in Spike at all). A new canon movie isn't tailored to satisfy all these narrow, niche markets. Basically, at this point is there any way to satisfy Spike fans? I fear the answer is no.
ETA II: Rewatched the Sex in the City episodes on TBS last night where Carrie discovers Big in the Hamptons, having moved back from Paris without telling her, followed by the episode where he tells her that he's engaged. (Classic example of a guy saying he didn't want to commit which translated to "not wanting to commit to you") Anyway, I like those eps, but the irksome thing of the ending of the ep concerning Big's engagement was that really should have been the end of it. Despite the set-up of the Sex finale that made it superficially seem okay that she ended up with Big, she REALLY should never have become involved with him again. He really treated her terribly in earlier seasons. Really, this "true, destined love" and "soulmates" crap that TV tries to sell is...well... crap. Either it's a good relationship where people care about each other and thus it's a lasting one, or it's not. Nothing is destined, and there's a point where you've really broken someone else's heart too many times to be trusted with it yet again. Blech.
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Date: 2005-08-24 02:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-24 03:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-24 03:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-24 03:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-24 07:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-24 03:39 pm (UTC)Anyone BUT Drew is alright with me. (except the other Drew--lol)
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Date: 2005-08-24 04:06 pm (UTC)As far as VIEW of Spike, Jane E. is my favored person. I'd really like her to influence Minear's view of the character.
That said, I also tend to think it's a mostly hypothetical issue as I'm not getting my hopes up of anything coming to fruition. There are too many i's without dots and t's that haven't been crossed yet for me to have much faith in the project.
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Date: 2005-08-24 03:01 pm (UTC)personally, don't want or need a spike movie. You've read my rant. I'm not going to repeat it. Don't want a talented actor getting pigeon holed by the one big role of his career. Spike could easily become Marsters' albatross.
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Date: 2005-08-24 03:16 pm (UTC)It would be great if he got another vehicle in the meantime, but in lieu of that happening, I don't have any major overriding issue with a Spike Movie other than hoping that it would be worth seeing (which isn't guarenteed given the vagaries of Jossian
illogic.
But, Shatner will always be Captain Kirk even if he's playing on Boston Legal. And Allison Hannigan will always be identifed as Willow and that girl in American Pie. And no matter how many movies Elizabeth Montgomery made in the seventies, she was still Samantha Stevens. Some roles have a stronger association than others and Spike isn't a character JM will ever truly disassociate from. It's just a fact of genre.
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Date: 2005-08-24 03:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-24 04:18 pm (UTC)But seeing that Joss' name is still on it, and he's the king of useless spin, I will believe it when I see it.
*trounces off to mock tom cruise some more*
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Date: 2005-08-24 04:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-24 04:44 pm (UTC)And I couldn't agree with you more about Mr. Big. Guy treats you as utterly disposable for years; and then wants you only after he know someone else wants you. And this makes him the love of your life how? I liked how the series wrapped for most of the other characters; but not for Carrie. But as Carrie was my least favorite; I was pretty much OK with it.
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Date: 2005-08-24 10:46 pm (UTC)And, Carrie was never my favorite character. I don't resent her or anything but truthfully, I sort of preferred Charlotte and Samantha (how's that for polar opposites). Since the Sex finale was ostensibly a happy ending (even if I didn't agree with the Big finale) I didn't quibble too much. It's just re-watching the episodes last night it sort of struck home again just HOW badly Big had treated her. That had rather faded from memory, but really he had devalued her throughout their relationship so...well it's not really the best ending for her since you really kind of think he'll go back to taking her for granted again.
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Date: 2005-08-24 06:53 pm (UTC)Yeah. I think this Spike movie business will all hinge on how well Serenity does. If it's a huge (or even a middling) hit, I wouldn't count on a Spike movie because Joss will then start working on the thing he really wants -- a shiny Serenity film franchise.
You've brought up some interesting points about post-BtVS fandom, particularly about the fractured Spike fandom (of which I wasn't aware). What I don't understand is why anyone thinks the character must be burdened with past relationships of any kind in a continuing story. Why can't he just go on as himself, alone? I suppose one could argue that our past defines us, but to me only complete wackos spend their lives obsessing over past loves (and let's face it, in real life men almost never do). Before Spike's life was pretty much ruined by ME committee, he was a fairly interesting character all on his own. Perhaps he can be again if he's reimagined anew by somebody who actually respects the character.
But I'm not holding my breath. And I honestly don't know how they're going to credibly get around the fact that JM looks appreciably older now than he did a couple of years ago. This whole thing is tenuous in the extreme.
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Date: 2005-08-24 07:22 pm (UTC)So, JM doesn't look 25 any more. They never specified William's age. So really, ultimately, age is the least of my issues. I'd be more concerned with what story is there to tell in the character because there would need to be an emotional arc to make it worthwhile. That's really the only issue that would concern me.
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Date: 2005-08-24 07:45 pm (UTC)I think it would be a damn shame for Spike to be carrying a torch for Buffy or Drusilla. However, if penning a script for a Spike movie, the odds of Dru showing up in some capacity would seem reasonably high to me.
Part of the allure of having a 150 year old character is the ability to show a different era in flashback. Why? Because it's fun that's why. Also if a move were to stand alone, some explanation of character history would be needed so, again, that would up Dru's odds for at least appearing.
Finally, given a Spike-centric movie you'd want some sort of emotional issue involved. Dru as a villainess would hold some power to it. Dru involved with a Big Bad villain would hold some dramatic potential.
My point on BAPS has been, not so mucht that "Dru should appear in the (or so improbable movie!)" as it's been "I find it sort of silly to dismiss the idea that she could appear in the movie. What's more, I find it silly to make a check-lists of dos and don'ts for a movie that will quite probably never been made." I mean, if you throw a fit that Dru cannot be in this movie! Ick! Toi!... What's your fallback position if the movie is made and she does show up? OOps?
I just don't quite understand the vehemence of the "no Dru!" stance given the combination of the fact that at best it's a hypothetical question since the movie has high odds of never being made along with the fact that if it is made, Dru holds reasonable odds of appearing in some small capacity for simple facts of flashbacks to re-establish who Spike is (in addition to Juliet Landau possibly being available). Some people take the mention of Dru as "Oh, you're wanting a Spike/Dru relationship!" which, really isn't the issue (because I don't.) It's just that if pitching a story for Spike and searching around for some familiar elements of the Jossverse that could help frame the story before sending it off in new directions... I give Dru one of the higher odds of cameo appearance just as a purely pragmatic thing.
(Of course the reason I have a post NFA fic idea involving her really wasn't an outgrowth of Dru but an outgrowth of wanting to explore a soul in the Whedonverse in fanfic. Hence a (rather complicated because all my plots are complicated) plot concerning Spike and Angel... and Dru and Illyria. I'll probably never get around to writing the story, but Dru as an issue between Spike and Angel makes sense to me).
At any rate, I still give very low odds to a Spike movie. But I tend to think that if there is one that Dru is one character would have some possibility of actually showing up... unlike the Buffster.
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Date: 2005-08-24 06:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-24 10:49 pm (UTC)While this role is hardly the role of a lifetime, I don't think it will do JM any harm and it has potential to have a bit of fun. In the end, I tend to think that it's better for him to be working than anything else.
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Date: 2005-08-24 04:45 pm (UTC)I don't mind the post chosen happy spuffy fic or even post NFA if the writer explains TGIQ well enough. But I like to see a Spike movie that was all about Spike. Something that left the possibility for a show. Anything with Buffy in it would be a post script to BtVS IMHO.
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Date: 2005-08-25 01:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-24 05:14 pm (UTC)Well I adored season 2 Spike, as well as Spike from later seasons. Him and Dru were the first characters that caught me eye. I would love the move to include flashbacks, and Ioften feel I'm a minority for that view. Drusilla is one of my favourite characters ever. And I'm not saying I want Spike getting back with Dru, but I bet Juliet would be up for the movie and I would love her meeting souled Spike in the present day and Spike dealing with those issues.
As SMG won't be appearing, I'm hoping the case will include Illyria, Andrew, and Dru
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Date: 2005-08-25 02:02 am (UTC)I'm hoping for both Illyria and Dru... if we get a movie.
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Date: 2005-08-24 06:41 pm (UTC)But, I'm really not going to worry over who writes it or what it's about, because I really don't believe Joss is ever going to make it. I think he snickers every time someone asks about a Spike movie. He's moved on and I'm moving on too.
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Date: 2005-08-25 02:07 am (UTC)Now, I also agree that there's no purpose in setting any store on a future Spike Movie. The odds of it NOT happening greatly outnumber the chances that it might. Personally, I'm not holding my breath (nor am I really dealing with my own fears about all the bad things that could happen in a possible Spike Movie because I haven't yet been convinced that there really and truly will BE one. If there's a contract out there, I'll then deal with my conflicted feelings on the subject. Until then it's just a hypothetical question for me.
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Date: 2005-08-24 06:53 pm (UTC)But - that's my Spuffyheart that is speaking.
As for reality?
SMG would never do a Movie as Buffy - I think so. So I have no hope of a 'spuffy' Spike movie.
We'll see if they will make one ...
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Date: 2005-08-25 02:10 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-24 07:20 pm (UTC)Myself, I'll be happy with anything that gives Spike proper character development and doesn't portray him as stupid (although I'd hate any kind of Bangel endorsement, because I liked the whole S/B and A/B being left on an equal footing, the way it was after TGiQ).
We'll see.
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Date: 2005-08-25 02:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-24 07:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-25 02:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-24 08:42 pm (UTC)I do believe Jane Esperson would be the best writer to tackle a Spike movie, but Joss seems to have gotten stuck in a "shock and awe" rut regarding all of the characters and is constitutionally opposed to allowing any character to have any little bit of happiness in their lives before lowering the ax again. Let's just recap where each character was at the conclusion of the series: Buffy arranged to have thousands of girls who would have otherwise led normal lives turned into Slayers, gave a truly creepy smile when overlooking the grave of the vampire who had shown his love for her in more ways than could be counted (even before he got his soul) and then went off to Europe and began dating a smarmy Immortal who had a history of moving in on Spike and Angel's women just to prove he could. Xander lost an eye and the woman with whom he had a chance at a good life if he hadn't been so afraid of commitment. Willow took up with a bossy, pushy, predatory know-it-all because she had never taken the time to actually mourn for Tara. Giles (who should have learned his lesson in Helpless) acted like a pod-person all season then betrayed Buffy again. Fred was destroyed body and soul and taken over by a god-king-demon. Lorne, the pacifist whose joy in life was to make people's lives better, spent the season becoming progressively more and more depressed and finally agreed to murder a human being. Wesley? Wesley's life sucked persimmons and then he died.
So, in actuality, I think I prefer fanfic to continue the adventures of characters I love and care about rather than trusting to the "tender mercies" of the ME team.
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Date: 2005-08-24 10:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-25 04:01 am (UTC)I mean, *really*, what can I add to this conversation? Everyone had great points.
I'm just scared. Scared b/c I no longer trust Joss *or* ME. Scared that they're going to fuck Spike up. Scared that they're going to somehow tip the hat for Buffy/Angel and negate Buffy/Spike, which would *hurt* so much.
Great post!
Peeking out ...
Date: 2005-08-27 02:10 pm (UTC)Well that just IMHO. ;)