Joss, Joss, Joss...

[shipperx]

I'll discuss more when I can be more charitable.  But really, Joss Whedon discussing latter season Buffyverse is like waving a red flag in front of me.  He doesn't get it.  He'll never get it.  And it still makes me insanely frustrated when I see just how much he doesn't get it.

And    a Fray-ish thing if there's a Spike movie?  Thanks for telling us Spike will be sent to hell, Joss.  Really appreciate that.

And thanks one more time for telling me how you couldn't kill anyone but Spike and Anya and have a happy ending... all without realizing how toolish that makes the Scummies.

Comments

[marajade71.livejournal.com]

It's so pathetic that he still doesn't get it, isn't it.

*sigh*

And I was thinking nothing could make me hate Chosen more...

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I don't think I hate more... it's just that the hate is unabated. :)

[kellyhk.livejournal.com]

Dear Joss,

You are cordially invited to go fuck yourself.

Thank you, and have a pleasant day.

KellyHK

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

PS. Joss, remember to feel really guilty after you fuck yourself because all male sexuality is evil. Oh, yeah, and you fuck -- you die (at least in the Whedonverse).

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

The thing that actually blows my mind in that interview is that he can't figure out why people think his current X-Men arc sucks. Comics critics have laid out specificallywhat sucks about it. In detail. On top of which, for anyone who's followed his other work, it's a sad retread of the typical "bad dad" story and the villainous misdirection thing - super predictable. Does Joss even realize how Dick Cheney-ish he sounds, by his whole "oh geez, I dunno what they don't like" thing? Season 6 - yep, same thing.

[paratti.livejournal.com]

I'm increasingly convinced that Joss has absolutely no insight whatsoever about his own work. People have been saying in words of one syllable what was wrong with S6 since the thing aired and he still doesn't get that. I don't see that changing with the comics problems as the problem is a Joss one.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Yep, I think that's pretty clearly it. He seems frightfully shortsighted about the implications in his own material, which is ironic, since it's becoming clear - and this is from his comic work, which so far is lining up to be a sort of Joss's Greatest HIts of Story Tropes - that he has a fairly limited bag of tricks. There's the "perfect" character who's always right, the "evil" character who people are too foolish to realize is actually evil, the "bad dad"... you get the picture. You'd think he'd have some larger meaning encoded into all this after doing it over and over in various venues, but ultimately it seems to only be about surface-y showoffness - mashing emotional buttons for effect.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I seriously do not get the "Joss is a GENIUS!" mindset. No. He isn't. Not even close.

That isn't to say the man has no talent. He does have talent. I think he is a very good dialog writer and a reasonably good script doctor. The problem is his own long term plotting has little to actually say. His ability with dialog often covers that problems with his plots and characterization.

But the more of his work you examine the more you notice that he is a plot based writer, not a character focused one. He will shoe-horn his characters into contorted positions simply to fit a plot he is dead set on.

And I have intense dislike with most of his themes (the "feminism" that isn't, the "male sexuality is evil", the tired old "I hate my father" schtick, the "life sucks, and then it sucks some more" mentality that isn't deep dark like many people defend, but shallow dark which is why his button pushing doesn't seem profound after a while, but just looks like cynical button pushing. He's a kid in a classroom poking people in their backs waiting for a reaction and when the poked person turns around and smacks him in the head, he got what he wanted and thinks that he really accomplished something.)

Actually, it's not just because of the Whedonverse that I think Joss isn't the worlds gift to screen writing. Long before I knew who in the hell Joss Whedon was I HATED Alien Resurrection. Alien Resurrection sticks out in my memory with Star Wars Episode 1 as being the two movies that I was re-writing in my head even while watching them in the theater because it just pained me how badly a good premise was being wasted. And I know Joss likes to disclaim the catastrophe of Alien Resurrection, but I read his original script online, and turns out all the things I MOST hated (the abyssmally shallow Frankenstein rip-off without the actual depth of the real Frankenstein) were Joss's themes and ideas which he introduced.

So, turns out, I thought Joss sucked long before I knew who Joss was.

Joss has had his areas of inspiration, and he's a good dialog writer. But unless he is hemmed in by constraints, his ego runs away with him and he simply isn't as good as he (and his acolytes) believe.

A little humility (and good editing) would go a long way to improving Joss's work. (Though he'd probably still be an asshole).

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

I've become more and more convinced, the older I get, that the biggest warning sign in the universe that an author seriously needs a reality check is when he/she begins to disdain editors. Probably no mistake that Anne Rice came up in this thread in the same vein.

I saw Alien Resurrection again recently and was amused to note what kind of changes a JW script undergoes with a different director (in this case, the City of Lost Children guy, who I actually quite like). Script-wise, it's astonishingly template Joss - special superwoman character with angst (Ripley), waif with hidden powers (Winona Ryder), a team of morally ambiguous toughs in a ragtag ship (see: Firefly) with gadgety weapons (check out the prototypes for Angel and Wes's wrist launchers). But the stuff the director changed - it's obvious, for example, the director seriously enjoys the guy in the wheelchair even though there's nothing special about him in the script, and the alien baby was a whole new addition - give it an entirely different spin. The director seemed to find parity between all the weasely double-crossers and the alien hyrbrid, which was so sad and pathetic and almost cute, that the whole thing became kind of a parody of a tough action movie. No wonder JW hates it. : )

I don't deny the guy's talent with surface razzle-dazzle, but the content beneath the surface... sorry. He keeps trying to play ambiguity for a strength, and eventually it just turns into a meta-comment about the authorial process - I don't really know what I'm saying here, but really, who does? Uhhh....

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Rice's refusal to accept ANY criticism or editing is very detrimental to her work. But then she, like many writers, seems to only have a few stories and she exhausted most of the good stuff on Interview and The Vampire Lestat.

Joss on the other hand, seems to be sort of fanfic wanky in that it's always the stupid audience's fault if they don't embrace his work. It's not the audience's fault. Maybe he just pleases a tiny audience. But it isn't the audience's job to like something. They like what they like and if they're rejecting your story, Joss. They're rejecting your story. Be a big boy and admit that you aren't connecting with large chunks of your former audience.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm sure he can survive on a smaller audience than he used to have, especially if he continues to rack up niche hits like Firefly, but Anne Rice really is the lesson there - unless you continue to grow as an artist, it's hard not to exhaust even the hardcore fans' patience. One has to have new experiences to grow, and audience feedback is part of that. Art, especially pop art, needs to be a dialogue, it has to stay up to date. Otherwise, we'd all still be listening to the same music as our parents and grandparents. Although "niche" is one way around that, to be sure - god knows the Sci-Fi Channel thrives on producing a lot of uniform product.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I think Joss might be more successful as a movie writer than in any long franchise. I think that since movies are rather quick things that bangs, whistles, and witty dialog can compensate for illogic in plots. But in serial format there's too much time for speculation and in microscopic examination. Joss likes to jump between iconic moments and gloss over stuff with fun dialog, which can work. But most of his plots don't stand up well under a lot of scrutiny. In a way Buffy and Angel may be to his detriment since these long running shows have pretty much shown us Joss's plots. It would have taken many more movies to reveal his entire bag of tricks. And the problem is having had time to look into that bag of tricks and divine the themes BEHIND those stories, I've learned taht I don't like Joss's themes much.

I think it's a case of familiarity breeding contempt.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

He's a kid in a classroom poking people in their backs waiting for a reaction and when the poked person turns around and smacks him in the head, he got what he wanted and thinks that he really accomplished something.)

I forgot to call this line out in my above reply - really good observation. There's a disturbing neediness in the Class Clown act that came through sometimes in Xander - there's more than a little hostility in it, which also explains a lot of the feminism-that-isn't, frankly. You don't get the response you want, so obviously there's something wrong with the audience. Those bitches.

This isn't me psychoanalyzing Joss, just calling out what I keep seeing pressing up against the glass in his work. If it's not what he intends... then dude, he needs to work on that.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I think Joss's ego gets in the way. He can't bear to hear criticism so he dismisses it. How many fanfic writers have you seen behave this way? Joss's isn't nearly as superior as he thinks he is.

Still, the more you notice Joss's inability to reflect on his own mistakes by blaming them on others, the more sense Buffy makes as a character. She is a reflection of her creator. Be grateful he never gave a crap about Spike.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I realized ages ago that Joss's way of dealing with criticism is to say that nothing is wrong with his product (Joss: I'm a GENIUS, damnit! And I will make self-deprecating comments so that I think I don't sound as much like the self-aborbed egotist that I actually am.) Instead of reflecting on how his story didn't work for large portions of his audience, he blames the audience. He and Anne Rice are badfic wanky like that.

And, what? Cheap "gotcha!" devices aren't high drama? You pleb. You clearly don't understand Joss's superior genius.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

I pull out my wanky icon just because now we're talking about authorial 'tudes toward their own work. Which is always fascinating. : )

The point you made above, about JW's outlook being not unlike that of wanky fanfic authors, is well taken - creators tend to feel defensive about their work, that's a given. How they PR their way through it, though, is a test of personality, and yeah, you can see a lot about why Buffy and Angel are the way they are from this particular test. The character who is always right, regardless of what they might do, because they have a Special Destiny... Huh. Wonder where that came from?

I'm really out of patience on the "Gotcha!" plot. Unfortunately a lot of current TV is still all over it, so I'm kind of out of luck there. Sigh...

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yep. You just identified the ongoing theme in Whedon's work that I find the most difficult to connect to -- Joss's stories are all about exceptionalism. It's always "Woe is me, for being so burdened with special destiny and/or abilities. Pity me for my specialness."

Buffy was always "burdened" by her specialness. Same with Angel.

He doesn't connect with the "other" characters or their place with the audience because it's not about them. It's all about the burden of [his] genius.

I'm supposed to pity the character for having a pedestal to stand on? Um... why? And, I seriously don't work like that.

But, yeah, I think that element comes directly from Whedon himself. And it's why I've had ever decreasing interest in Whedon's work.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Yes, Hollywood must suck, mustn't it? All that pressure. What kills me is that there's never any focus on that very specialness - why someone got chosen. The one saving grace of "Get It Done," in my book, was this meta-quality it had of a critique by the other Mutant Enemy writers to their own figurehead - sort of, "why is your plan right? It doesn't make sense! Why can't you listen to anyone else?"

... but then, of course, Joss gets the last word. And the question isn't answered. Doubt it ever will be.

[pelinxf.livejournal.com]

:: headdesk ::

Not that so called happy ending thing again. I pray I see Joss Whedon somewhere so I can exactly say to him how he ruined his lead characters and why he's so pathetic and wrong to call that horse shit as happy.

They deserved it? I better shut up about what they've deserved...

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah, what they "deserved" was to die alone surrounded by feral cats because they were ::spit:: terrible people!

[paratti.livejournal.com]

I fucking hate Joss Whedon.

He can fuck himself with a chainsaw.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Poor chainsaw.

[sp23.livejournal.com]

I saw a link to this interview in paratti's journal, and saw blood red when I got to the "happy ending" bit. What an ass.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Well, of course it's a 'happy ending' as long as it's YOUR and not HIS sacred cow being gored, eviscrated, set on fire, and left unmourned in the ashes.

When Joss is happy, everyone is happy. Right? .... right?

[fenchurche.livejournal.com]

And thanks one more time for telling me how you couldn't kill anyone but Spike and Anya and have a happy ending... all without realizing how toolish that makes the Scummies.

It would have made it a happy ending if he and his writers hadn't done such a thorough job of making the Core Four into completely unlikeable people. But I don't think he's ever going to see that.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

But... but... the demons should be HAPPY to lay down their lives for the Scums! They wouldn't want the Scummies to have a downer for a few nanoseconds to MOURNE they deaths, either. They'd want the Scums to be happy. Spike and Anya should feel PRIVILEGED to die for the happiness of people who treated them like crap! [/sarcasm]

[spikendru.livejournal.com]

It would have made it a happy ending if he and his writers hadn't done such a thorough job of making the Core Four into completely unlikeable people. But I don't think he's ever going to see that.

That was my major problem with S7. They had a real opportunity to bring people back from the darkside of S6 by giving the characters some actual growth and development, which IMO, they just didn't do. Buffy never seemed to realize and accept her part in making the relationship with Spike an abusive one, when he was desperately trying to win her acceptance. If she had accepted him as having the potential to be good, he would have done his best to live up to that; instead, she did nothing but show him she wanted to stay in the dark while complaining about his dragging her down there.

By the time EOD/Chosen aired, I didn't really care much about any of the "core characters". They had totally destroyed both Buffy and Giles as characters, and Willow and Xander had become superfluous non-entities. (And don't even get me started on the inappropriatness of Pod!Angel's appearance a matter of days after he had given up Connor, agreed to work for the Evil Empire and the woman he loved was still comatose!) I've written a lot of fanfic in an attempt to wank Chosen, but as it aired, there's no way in hell I can understand how anyone could consider it a "happy ending". From Xander's brushing off Anya's death and showing no grief at all, through Buffy's smirk (that I really, really wanted to smack right off her face) to the irresponsible decision to invest hundreds (maybe thousands) of girls that would other wise have gone on to have normal lives, with demon essence, doing to them exactly what she had railed against being done to her . . . I have no words. On the other hand, I loved every second of NFA. We got to actually see the development of the characters as they made choices about their possibly last-day-on-earth, the core group did what they had to do without dragging in thousands of innocents, everybody kept fighting and no one smirked!

/rant

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I agree that the true ultimate downfall of Season 6 is Season 7. Season 6 is incredibly painful to watch. But incredible pain in a journey can be redeemed by a satisfying conclusion. The problem with Season 7 is that there WAS no satisfying conclusion. Season 6 dragged out every, single, horrifically unattractive trait in the characters for months upon months on end. If the characters had learned from thie process and then we saw them face theif flaws and overcome them at some point in the journey, then I would agree with Joss regarding the bravery. But there was no bravery in the storyline. It was ugliness of every terrible flaw that then is swept under the carpet while they pretend in Season 7 that Season 6 was just a bad dream and here, are they just the cute, sweet kids from Season 2? Um... no. Just because Joss wanted us to dismiss all of Season 6 as "That was Season 6 and this is Season 7", it doens't really work that way. You can't go "back to the beginning" again. You have to go beyond. Season 7 showed that Joss had really and truly run out of story for BtVS. He tried to go back and you just couldn't. For Season 7 to have worked, it needed to have addressed Season 6. Season 7 just wandered around and tried to ignore all the things that they'd deliberately dredged up in 6. Season 7 is just one big, fat waste.

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

Dear Joss - "points to icon"

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

And now I want Bubonic Plaque's "suck it!" icon. :)

[paratti.livejournal.com]

How about an EXTERMINATE one?

[deborahc.livejournal.com]

My brilliant two cents to add to the mix:

Yeah! What you and everyone else said.

Just wanted to let you know that I've dropped this into my Memories.

[filippin.livejournal.com]

Yeah... Me too! Add me to the list!

[sockmonkeyhere.livejournal.com]

I wish so much that someone could legally take ownership of the AtS characters -- Spike in particular, but also Fred, Lorne, etc. -- away from JW. He's already destroyed the BtVS "Core Four" and Faith and Dawn to the point that I hate their damn guts, and with the "Destiny" desk screw he even almost managed to make me hate Spike.

And sadly, instead of being concerned that his audience hates so much of what he's done with AtS and BtVS, I have a feeling that he's amused by our disgust.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I definitely get the feeling that he's amused by the anger and disgust of the characters (and him). It's weird but it feels true. And, though I refuse to believe there will be a Spike movie, I also FEAR Joss being interested in doing a Spike movie. No, Joss! Continue to ignore Spike he's better for it! (And I keep rememeber Fury telling BAPS Alane that he (Fury) didn't think that Joss could write Spike in Season 7. Actually I think he said that he didn't think Joss could write ANY of the characters of AtS... which is pretty sad.)

[sockmonkeyhere.livejournal.com]

Maybe he'll dump the entire movie on Tim Minear, who I trust far more than Joss to do a decent job. (Hell, I trust a roomful of screaming chimpanzees with typewriters to do a better job than Joss.)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Amen!