BtVS: No You Don't, But Thanks For Saying It

[shipperx]

Today, st_salieri referenced an old post by swsa. I remember when swsa made the original post, the same comment that st_salieri referenced was the one that caught my eye...and broke my heart a little.

This is totally bringing up one of my fandom pet peeves, wherein I think I've managed to ship the *only* couple in creation where it's not allowed to just state the love as if it's a foregone conclusion. But if I say Buffy loves Spike without explanation, justification, and shooting script quotes, I've got a debate on my hands. Even though, I've got mutual "I love you's" and third party confirmation on my side.

The reason reading the statement hurt a little was mainly because it's true. It is tiresome that any discussion of Spuffy comes with a need to write a dissertation... and that's just within the Spike and Spuffy fandoms. If one ventures into the broader BtVS fandom, it can become decidedly more difficult and warlike. I tend to steer clear of the larger fandom anti-Spike/anti-redemption/anti-Spuffy wars because, as I said in the comments of one of rahirah's posts about a fandom kerfuffle about Spike and Spuffy fanfic (specifically regarding soulless redemption stories), I think that it serves no real purpose to try to marginalize anyone's fanfic genre. It's fanfic. We all have differing perspectives on these things. The only thing that really frustrates me at this point is people spouting "can't" and "shouldn't," because the canon text is over. We all saw it. We just came away with differing interpretations of it. That's not going to change, so can't we all agree to live and let live? It's fanfic. There's room for everyone to have what they want and have their own view of the show reinforced. We don't have to agree, but it would be nice to peacefully co-exist.

Which isn't to say that I don't find debates interesting, I do find them interesting (and I'm easily drawn into them). I just don't want to wade into a war with someone who saw the show very, very differently than I did. It's like when, ages ago in someone else's journal, I ran across a perfectly nice, sane, and rational B/Aer (Yes, Virginia, they do exist. I know, we're more used to the nuts, but there also exist B/Aers of a non-toxic variety) who said it seemed clear to her that in Chosen an inevitable Buffy/Angel reunion was set up and that it was clearly reinforced by everything in Chosen. After I blinked a few times and scratched my head, I had to say that this was not the impression that I had taken from Chosen. But, that said, I could see how a B/Aer would walk away with that impression (and that it makes sense for B/Aers to happily write OTP reunion fanfic) because I think Joss intended that interpretation to be possible. Not the only interpretation (God knows, it's not my interpretation of what happened), but a possible interpretation. And, I think Joss deliberately tried to give Spuffies the same thing with the "I love you" and the flaming hands and the fade-to-black. I believe it is certainly possible (and intended) that Spuffies should see those scenes and be capable of leaving the show believing that their couple was consecrated in Jossian canon as a legitimate ship. He's flat out given approval for Spuffies to go out and create their fanfic (after all, he basically admitted that was intended by the fade-to-black in the basement). So, seeing those scenes and coming away with the feeling that Spuffy was given a go-ahead is also a legitimate interpretation of the text. I don't think Spuffies are nuts (nor, as per some of the debates online, 'just fluffy') As such I can completely sympathize with swsa's and st_salieri's frustrations, because I do feel that a fandom double-standard actually exists.

Which isn't to say that I came away from Chosen with a sense of clarity. I didn't. Perhaps it's because I see it as Joss handing out multiple interpretations that I cannot see any single interpretation but the muddle. I tend to simply see Joss as liberally handing out cookie crumbs. For that reason, I didn't come away feeling "yeah, that's it." In fact, my inner Spuffy came away feeling jerked around. (After all this time, you couldn't come up with a better solution than throwing it all up in the air and have a wanking free-for-all?) Even today, when I insist to myself that I'm quite sanguine with the whole thing, that I'm willing to accept the ambiguity of it all (that there is even some merit in ambiguity), my inner Spuffy pouts, feeling that there wasn't the pay-off needed to balance all the angst and hell that Spuffy had gone through (Yes, my inner Spuffy is twelve.) I become a bit pissy when I read the argument "Oh, [naysayers] weren't satisfied because they can't deal with the complexity of Spuffy." No, complexity isn't the problem. I can love complex and even ambiguous relationships in fiction. It's just that, with Spuffy, I felt like in a storytelling/pacing sense, I'd been jerked around for a few years and given very little payoff to balance the amount of angst that I had to sit through. It's a personal thing. Everyone has their own tolerance levels, but canon Spuffy felt like it became a Jossian game of cat and mouse to me, such that rather than embrace the ambiguity (as I do in many cases), I rather resent the endless ambiguity (in canon at least). It's the sense of having been toyed with, I think.

The truth is, when push comes to shove, I really do not know what Joss was trying to say with Chosen. I can see where he's giving Spuffies room to believe and where he's giving B/Aers room to believe, but for the life of me, I cannot say with any conviction what Joss believed... other than he believed in liberally handing out hope to shippers on both sides. Which isn't 'wrong' so much as it feels like it smacks of an incomplete vision. I feel a bit patronized by it. Oh, I can fanwank it... and I think that's where I always tend to fall in the debate -- that it's all a fanwank (and that's probably why I am so easily drawn into the debates despite my aforementioned reluctance to enter anti-Spuffy wars).

Yes, I can see how the flaming hands are to be a symbol of love. Yes, it is a symbol of love, but, you know what? I didn't much believe Buffy either by that point... which isn't to say that I think Buffy was lying. It just means that after a few years of being yanked around by the writers (and in a way by the character of Buffy) I didn't consider Buffy a reliable emotional compass. I fully believe that Buffy meant her words to Spike in the "I love you." But, by that point, I can't say that I invested a great deal of weight in Buffy's words. And the worst thing is, I frequently find myself in the mindset of "yeah, you mean it for you" which bears particularly ugly connotations because that was used against Spike over and over again. To say such thing is really rather demeaning to a person ( or in this case, a character) and yet in my heart... that's what I tend to feel. Buffy meant it... for Buffy ( as in how Buffy defined it at that moment) and, quite frankly, I'm not sure that Buffy and I have the same sort of concept of what love is and what it means.

One person in the aforementioned threads commented that all of Buffy's actions in Season 7 spoke of love. I contend some of Buffy's actions speak of love... and others very much did not. It's the contradictory nature of it all that left me at a point where when Buffy finally, at last, said the words... they rang hollow to my ears. Not because I didn't believe she meant it, but because it didn't really mean much to me if she did. I couldn't place much import or faith in her words or in her ephemeral epiphanies. Nothing stuck. Nothing was free of the backtracking already laid with the consistent use of plausible deniability. I couldn't believe she meant what she said in that moment, but could very well not mean it five minutes from now, so I couldn't invest in her words. I just couldn't... which is why I totally understood Spike not believing her.

And I really don't believe that Spike believed her. I have seen all sorts of interpretations about how he really believed her, but he let her go. And, as I have stated, I believe that there are a multiplicity of possible interpretations of the text, so I'm not saying that someone is 'wrong' if they believe that Spike believed her but sacrificed that belief (or her) to send her to safety. But, in my view of the text... I just don't believe that he believed her. I don't think that he was willfully denying her words. That just doesn't seem like Spike to me. I just don't believe that he thought she loved him...not in a really real way or ,more importantly, in a lasting way.

What's more, I don't blame him for not believing her. In my mind, if Spike had believed her, he would have gone to her in AtS Season 5. Nothing on earth would have prevented him. What prevented him was the fact that he didn't believe her. He really didn't. But as long as he didn't see her, he could preserve both his and Buffy's plausible deniability. As long as they didn't revisit that moment, it could exist with the possibility of... hope. Hope that maybe she had meant it. Even if he didn't believe her, that doesn't mean he didn't hope that he was wrong. As long as the moment existed undisturbed, MAYBE it was true.

But if he had truly believed that she meant what she had said, Spike (love's bitch) would have gone to her. In my mind he quite simply didn't believe, but he also didn't want to destroy the pretty illusion that MAYBE he was wrong. (Which is why it still rather frustrates me that the "ILY"/"NYDBTFSI" was cut out of the AtS flashback. That scenes ambiguity informs Spike's constant contradictory statements in regards to Spuffy, and his indecision about seeing her. With that as context, his contradictory statements would make sense. As it is, that was never presented on AtS at all).

Which, indirectly, brings me to The Girl In Question, not because I think it says much as to whether or not Buffy actually loved Spike (or even Angel) because I don't think it says much of anything one way or the other. Well, except for Andrew's "She loves you both" which, honestly, I can interpret to mean all kinds of love and as such, doesn't make a huge impact on my interpretations of Chosen one way or the other. Chosen remains intact and Buffy running around with someone new doesn't really say much about whether or not she actually loved Spike because, yet again, (and I have to say that it amused me) the writers insist on maintaining plausible deniability. It's never made explicitly clear whether or not Buffy knows that Spike is alive (at least up until that point. One would assume that after TGIQ, Andrew would feel free to tell Buffy that Spike is alive, but by then we're to the end of the series so we really don't know the consequences of such a revelation). So I really don't look at the ep as an indication of Buffy's feelings for Spike.

No, what actually brings me back to The Girl In Question is that it does seem to leave itself open to interpretation as, it seems, there are differing interpretations of what is represented by Buffy in Rome.

Quite honestly, I find the portrait of Buffy in The Girl In Question to be an unflattering one. I realize that it's painted very ambiguously. It's not explicit in saying anything about Buffy. Little real information is given about her, and certainly nothing that couldn't be quickly explained away by Joss. It's just on a pure viewing level, the portrait of Buffy that I gathered from The Girl in Question is not flattering (primarily, because it played into a lot of my issues with Buffy in the first place.)

I know there's the argument that she's now a "normal" girl and thus is "free," and yet this entire message is totally at odds with the AtS message of "the fight never ends." I always found the AtS message about always continuing the fight (or to go to BSG's Kara Thrace's comments in the finale "We fight until we can't fight any more") far more compelling than an ongoing desire to be "normal." It just seems so conformist and a bit self-oriented (even shallow by comparison). I realize this view heavily influences my reaction to Rome Buffy. But... there you go.

I don't take the "she's free to have a normal life" thing because she isn't normal. She's a Slayer. Even with Potentials, she isn't normal. She's still a Slayer. And what's more, clubbing in Rome doesn't strike me as all that great an end for anyone (And, maybe it's just sloughing off real world responsibilities and heading to a European capital as if it's Disneyland that bugs. I was rewatching the pen-ultimate episodes of Sex and the City last night, and I'm always frustrated with Carrie's desire to chuck what is actually a rather cushy career (and her friends) to head to Paris to...um... sit around a lot and wear evening gowns. I'm all for sight seeing, but life isn't sight-seeing. And I'm not sure that Europe is the answer to all one's life-issues. I tend to think of Farscape's Crichton when he tells Aeryn "Running away isn't fate. Running away is just running away." And Buffy's extended stay in Rome just seems... empty, because we're never given any info that it involves anything more than hanging out and hitting clubs or cuddling with the cipher that is The Immortal. Yeah, sure it could involve more, but we're never told anything but frivolity. And Buffy always had a tendency toward being frivolous. It was the Slaying part of her that balanced the fluff. Without it, I'm not sure that she's much more than a sorority girl on a European vacation ...which isn't wrong so much as why should I CARE? In general, I don't think that AtS presents Buffy in a good light in TGIQ (which isn't all that unusual for AtS, actually). She's just some blonde girl (one in a line of many that The Immortal has bedded. Really, is she given any precedence or stature over even the likes of Darla in this scenario? (Actually, I'd argue, that in general AtS gives Darla more importance to Angel than it ever gave to Buffy so Darla might actually be more important. Spike is a slightly different matter.) However, in general, unlike BtVS which was "all about Buffy" in AtS-land, Buffy usually isn't portrayed very well.

Once upon a time, a very long time ago, I had actually been a B/Aer. I was actually angry with the way that Angel had left her in the end of BtVS Season 3 (though I did realize that B/A had pretty much, dramatically, run its course. I just thought that Angel was rather high handed in the way he handled the situation). However, when Buffy showed up on AtS in "Sanctuary", well, I mostly hated her by the end of Sanctuary, and I was 100% OFF the B/A bus. Buffy's behavior in Sanctuary indicated very strongly to me that Buffy had no idea whatsoever who Angel actually was. What's more, she had no desire to actually find out who Angel was. She didn't know what made him tick, what his desires were, what his hopes and fears were, what it was which drove him to do anything that he did. For Buffy it was about Angel as the handsome, mysterious boyfriend and that's it. She wanted that fantasy. It wasn't about reality. It was about a dream and maintaining a dream. And the more Buffy stayed away, the more cemented I became in the belief that Buffy (and Angel, btw) was invested in maintaining the illusion of B/A in her head. Not the reality, but the fantasy. And, much of the conflict of Spuffy is that Buffy's hands could not be pried off of a dream of how Buffy had cast "true love forever" in her head and how that had combined with "love is pain and death." Buffy didn't want a real B/A (she would have pursued it, if she had) but she liked the shield of the dream of B/A... to the point that she would overlook the love that was standing by her side fight after fight after fight and willing to self immolate to achieve the impossible standard.

Which is why I cannot accept "The Immortal" as a good thing. I know, I know. It's supposed to be some rif on Angel and Spike and their "rivalry" with him. First off, I can't believe we're supposed to buy into The Immortal. Dramatically, that cannot work as he's this faceless creature, and the story on AtS is about Angel (and Spike). We are, by association, going to be on their side and not on this nameless, faceless Immortal's. We can see that Angel and Spike are being ridiculous, but we're also left feeling that The Immortal is nothing but a cipher. He exists as nothing but a walking, talking fantasy. And, unfortunately, that plays right into many of my issues with Buffy.

The fact is, The Immortal is a nameless fantasy-- rich, good looking, playboy with a thing for Zen philosophy. It's like he hopped out of Zoolander (And yeah, in my head he sort of looks like an Owen brother...or Fabio. Okay, maybe Fabio). And Buffy is all caught up in a fantasy. It just makes me think that Buffy hasn't matured. Her cookie dough hasn't baked. She's just fallen into yet another fantasy, one that The Immortal embodies in his very formlessness.

As stupid and silly as Spike and Angel are in their pettiness... they are real-- flaws and all. In the kindest of all interpretations, The Immortal is AtS's version of Red Dwarf's Ace Rimmer (which was an episode's long rif on the 'perfect' hero, an alternate version of Rimmer who Real Rimmer loathed but who everyone else fell for on the spot and droolled all over). The thing is, it's not real. No one BUYS the "perfect" guy. He doesn't exist. It's a farce. So in the kindest of interpretations, Buffy is dallying with an illusion... which sort of makes her seem like a bubblehead to me. She's still acting like an adolescent girl more interested in a mysterious, handsome boyfriend than actually creating something real with someone with flaws.

A less flattering interpretation is that The Immortal is NOT a good guy. In fact, they never once try to make him out as a "good guy." It's stated several times that The Immortal is amoral, without morals. This isn't a "good" guy... nor is he a "bad" guy. Basically, he doesn't give a damn about moralty. He's pure hedonism. So, Buffy has now embraced hedonism. We're left with the AtS character battling the final apocalypse and Buffy is dancing her nights away in a life of pure hedonism (with The Immortal). Again, not a flattering epilogue for Buffy because it goes back to being purposeless. From the girl with a mission, she becomes the girl with blisters from dancing and... meh. Why would I care?

And a less flattering interpretation still is that The Immortal is a suspicious character because the characters on screen crying his praises are demons and the head of Wolfram & Hart: Rome Division. (Oh, and yeah, Drusilla and Darla. You know, evil vampires. The Immortal slept with two uberevil vampires with the express purpose of...um... giving them repeated orgasms. I mean, if he was a "good guy" wouldn't he have had a bit more noble motives than getting off with two evil female vampires concurrently with perhaps a side motive of maybe just pissing off two other vampires? Even the so-called "noble" actions are mostly explained by annoying the crap out of the Angel and Spike (even if we're to believe that Angel and Spike are overly invested in the guy). Still, we're told point blank that The Immortal is amoral so, we aren't being told to interpret his actions as being done out of nobility. He's not noble. The Immortal is, in other words, perhaps rather shady. And I'm not judging in an "oh, that makes Buffy bad" way. It...well... considering her stances in the past, it makes her seem a bit of a bubblehead to be blinded by the pretty this time.

And finally in the meta, we know that the writers were doing a rif on their inability to line SMG up to appear in "Damage" or "You're Welcome" when AtS had tried to schedule her. SMG had produced a series of 'reasons' why she couldn't arrange to make an appearance. That being the case, The Immortal seems to have a meta commentary of Celebrity and Fame (as the AtS writers... and FOX by that point didn't seem all that well disposed to SMG I don't think they were all that bothered by the implications of what that said about Buffy).

All in all, as silly and farcical as Spike and Angel are in The Girl in Question. As much as they NEEDED to hear that they should get their own lives, I never, ever took The Girl In Question to mean anything flattering for Buffy. It was just elusive (frivolous) Buffy off being a young GIRL (not a woman) who, quite frankly, was never made to appear all that great from the AtS side of the glass. Especially with the ep sandwiched between Fred's death and where Angel, Spike, and gang are left with the final apocalypse. Buffy meanwhile is living in a hedonistic bubble.

I always thought TGIQ said far less flattering things about Buffy's than it did the boys, but then, I do realize that like just about everything Mutant Enemy did in the latter seasons, it's open to a wide range of interpretations where motives are left shrouded in ambiguity since...well... Buffy is nothing but a big swinging mass of blonde hair in the episode. I don't think she comes off as bad just... kinda shallow. (but, hey, I've always perceived that to be one of Buffy's problems that she needed to battle. She always seemed to have far too much ability to be distracted by shiny things and aspire to very little. She always preferred fantasy to reality, so I just saw The Immortal = Fantasy Guy and was singularly unimpressed with Buffy's version of "moving on." It looked a lot like backsliding to me).


At any rate, to drag it all back to the beginning. I think Joss deliberately left a lot of wiggle room for himself and that few (if any) hard, firm stances were taken in Chosen (or TGIQ). It's always up for interpretation. And mostly, I'm okay with that, because asking questions which makes fanfic interesting. I don't begrudge anyone their own interpretations. And I most certainly enjoy the Spuffy-positive interpretations. But I'm afraid my final impressions of Spuffy were murky, muddled, and conflicted... which doesn't lessen my fascination with them. It just means that I never found satisfaction with canon.

JMHO, of course.

Comments

[spikeylover.livejournal.com]

Oh, man... I can relate to St. Salieri and swsa..

When I vid, I do use different interpretations, but personally I feel positive that she loved him and he didn't believe her. The problem with Buffy was that she didn't WANT to love him.

I also feel that she didn't know he was alive in TGIQ. Andrew is to be believed because contrary to what some people say, Andrew isn't one to run his mouth the first chance he gets. He kept secrets from Jonathan for Warren. I've never seen evidence of behavior where Spike would tell him not to say something and he would. Also, I don't doubt that Giles and the gang were wondering what was up with Angel and his sudden affiliation with the evil law firm. Andrew is what Wesley was in BTVS--he's learning but has potential.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree very much that the biggest obstacle in Spuffy wasn't Buffy's inability to love... it was that she didn't want to. That's a different question than whether or not she did. I think, in many ways she really did. Whatever it is, however ill defined and conflicted it was deep, messy and real. However, the obstacle is that whatever she felt for Spike she didn't WANT to love him. She wanted something... else. And her desire for that was always at odds with what she felt for Spike and caused a lot of the endless tug of war that was part of Spuffy.

It makes me sad for Spike, but I do see that as the huge mental hurtle that Buffy had a very, very difficult time with and I can't conclusively say whether or not she ever really crossed in more than a momentary sense. I really don't know.


And I tend to think we are to take Andrew at his word regarding the "She loves you both" and I give Andrew the benefit of a doubt that he kept his mouth shut as promised. However, I can't see Spike restipulating that restriction in front of Angel as they leave in TGIQ. Nor do I think after Spike (and Angel) repeatedly show up that night to see Buffy, that Andrew would assume that it was a secret that he needed to continue to keep. I think he well, could have told Buffy after TGIQ that Spike was alive... of course there wasn't much time left after that one so there is always the question of whether Buffy showed up after AtS faded off screen... or maybe she didn't. It, too, is an open question. I always was amused that they refused to even make it clear whether or not she actually knew he was alive again.

[st_salieri.livejournal.com]

Actually, I agree very much with your point that Joss deliberately left the ending as open to as many interpretations as possible. And I don't have a problem with that. Buffy's story, after all, isn't all about what guy she ends up with. I like the idea that it ended with Buffy choosing to take the time (now that it was available) to figure herself out a bit. She'd never really had the opportunity to do that, and I think she welcomed it. Maybe she'll reunite with Angel? Maybe Spike? I think she has very deep feelings for both of them, but in the end I don't feel it was really about them and their relationships. It was all about Buffy.

I think the frustration, then, (and I'm speaking for myself here, not swsa isn't with Joss's open ending, but with fandom. With most ships, it seems that you can take the emotional connection between the pairing as a foregone conclusion. Buffy loved Angel, Angel loved Buffy. Maybe her love was still a slightly childish, fantasy love because of her age, but I think she loved him very much. But it seems that the Spike/Buffy relationship isn't given that same benefit in the fandom at large. In other words, despite what was shown on screen and Buffy's own words, it seems that someone has to set out to prove that Buffy loved Spike. And no one likes to justify their own ship, especially one that seems to be one of the main canon pairings of the show (along with Buffy's two other relationships).

Regarding TGIQ, I have no problem with Buffy there, precisely because the entire episode was about Spike and Angel and their relationship. Everything we saw was twisted through their perspective (including all of their dealings with the Immortal). I honestly don't think that there's enough information there to say that Buffy has abandoned her calling, or is a flake or anything. She's shown dating and dancing, that's it. I think it was all about Angel and Spike's reaction to that and to each other.

I just find it interesting that one criticism of Buffy that I've seen a lot is that she's too black and white in her dealings with the demon world (i.e., soulless Spike), and yet she's then criticized for dancing with the Immortal who, frankly, we don't know that much about (other than that Angel and Spike have a hilariously overblown hatred for the guy as some kind of mystical alpha male). It's the ultimate nightmare for Spike and Angel, and that's what makes it so funny. To me, anyway.

[swsa.livejournal.com]

Feel free to speak for me anytime. *g* Cause yes, you've nailed it exactly. I feel a bit bad that that quote from me is causing angst for some people. It really was intended to be a joke. Especially taken with the few sentences following it. And yes, it is about fandom and not the show itself. It's something that's really been on my mind for a couple of years now and that started during the Wes/Lilah arc. Which for me, is a relationship that could not be more obviously *not* love. In every conceivable way. I mean, as he's sleeping with her, he's imagining she's Fred. And yet, it's a ship that's largely accepted in fandom. Not many people are going to call you on it if you talk about them in terms of love. Despite almost zero canonical support that love exists from *either* character. Spuffy is an odd ship in fandom. Despite being one of the two largest ships, it's the most contested. It gets slammed for being too dull and conventional on one side of fandom...liking Spuffy, just being so passe. Then slammed on the other side for being sick and twisted. I'm coming to a place where it doesn't bother me so much, mostly because at some point it's gotta be somewhat flattering that any ship can strike such terror in the heart of fandom. And I mean, hey, our ship's even been blamed for the downfall of all of television! Not too shabby.

And of course, I agree with you on your TGIQ comments.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

It isn't so much that Buffy "didn't choose"... I didn't expect rings and fat babies. It's just that after years of Spuffies being tempted and teased, in a story sense it would have been nice if we had been given a payoff that didn't end up with even FANS of the ship debating for years whether or not it was real. I mean, with everything that had happened, I would have liked a bit more clarity than that. Sigh. I would have liked to have been convinced that she meant it... in a meaningful way. And no matter how hard I try, I just can't convince myself that it was more than right then, right there, she thought it (and it was true) but that she really probably couldn't sustain any epiphany for a meaningful period of time. I had seen her vacillate too often and too painfully to think that she could really stick to it, which makes me (unfortunately) discount her sentiments, which I conversely feel is a disservice both to Buffy and Spuffy... and I just can't help it.

As to TGIQ, I still can't get over the feeling that it wasn't a nice portrait of Buffy (and that the AtS writers didn't care). It's not just that the Immortal is amoral (because, as you say, it'snot like we didn't support her loving a demon) is that she refused to love a soulless demon and yet here she is with someone who is openly amoral and that just seems a tad hypocritical to me given all that had gone before. And, again, as silly and petty as Spike and Angel were, their flaws were that of people. They were real. The Immortal is nothing but a cipher. In the end, Buffy is off with a cipher and that just doesn't make me think all that much of her. With the juxtaposition of TGIQ between A Hole in the World and the whole "the whole world is in an apocalypse" Buffy dancing the night away in rome isn't something that I embrace in contrast to Spike, Angel, Wesley, Gunn, and Illyria facing down death.

Buffy always had an edge of being frivolous. With the way that "Chosen" ended the sloughing of responsibility, I just didn't react all that well that all we're told of her is frivolity. And after all the angst of the Spuffy and Bangel, that now she's with a cipher.

Then again, I do have Buffy issues that I always admit to. I just wasn't overly impressed with Buffy's AtS epilogue.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I like the idea that it ended with Buffy choosing to take the time (now that it was available) to figure herself out a bit. She'd never really had the opportunity to do that, and I think she welcomed it. Maybe she'll reunite with Angel? Maybe Spike? I think she has very deep feelings for both of them, but in the end I don't feel it was really about them and their relationships. It was all about Buffy.


I think that's important. The series ends with Buffy smiling with her friends, as life awaits her. To have Buffy end up with the hero (whether Spike or Angel) takes away from her own story, which I think Joss was always keeping in mind. Joss designed Buffy as a feminist icon who could do it alone. I mean yeah Buffy was flawed and had her issues *g* But ultimately her story does end with her opening her heart to love, whilst lacking the conventional moment of Buffy in the hero's arms. And well Spuffy was never a conventional ship :P

Spike's story also ends in a suitably heroic way with him smiling and no longer needing love to complete himself. Back in BY he talks of needing love, so really his story ends perfectly with Spike no longer needing to be validated by other peoples felings for him. It wasn't played as a weapy moment. Spike was fine about the situation by the end, even the denial of love comes across as a tender thank you. It was enough just for Spike to love Buffy, he didn't need anything back at that point

So in a way both Buffy and Spike get their happy endings, with the journey they took together, having completed both of them. It doesn't end with the teary hug and matual I Love You's, that Bangel got in Becoming. But all the same, there was something real there. Joss talks in the commentary about the moment they share being so intense that the flaming hands is all they feel, and the world around them fades away

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I suppose my issue with "Buffy taking time" is that while it's a valid choice for a young woman, it's not a particularly strong one in a dramatic sense. I'm still left with this feeling of incompletion because if BtVS was the story of Buffy growing up, then having it end with her announcing that she's unbaked seems a bit of a cop-out. I think that's why I find "The Gift" a far stronger ending (for Buffy) than "Chosen." "Chosen" was chock full of gender politics, but I wasn't particularly convinced of Buffy's emotional arc in it. In fact, I found most of the "gifting the Potentials with Slayer power" to be symbollically contradictory. There's a problem with on one had seeing the power as a gift and on the other hand pronouncing Buffy free of it (or at least free of responsibities.) I suspect Spiderman would not approve. It just has some dramatic and symbollic holes in the story that leave me feeling incomplete and, yeah, kind of dissatisfied.

And it also sort of goes back to what rahirah sort of references. I don't see a reason that she had to end up alone. It's not like it needed to end with a wedding and promises. But I don't find the walking off without the encumberance of any romantic relationship any more 'girl power' than having one. If part of her growing up was her inability to make choices in relationships and having disastrous relationships, a stronger message (to me) would have been one where she had peace with one, not one that ended so ambiguously that not even the man who loved her could believe in her love and herself pronouncing "nothing is wrong with me" because "I'm unbaked cookie dough."

I can understand what Joss was going for, I'm just not sure that I agree with it. I'm just not.

However, I'm mostly okay with that because it's these unanswered questions that keep me interested in fic. In some ways I'm happier being dissatisfied as now I keep searching for resolution. When I'm happy with a conclusion (like I am with, say, Farscape) I tend to just accept canon, look no further, and never seek or write fic. I would have hated to miss so much excellent Spuffy fic. THAT would have been a loss.

[mbangel10.livejournal.com]

Very insightful and I agree with most everything you stated. I don't understand why Spuffy gets such a bad rap in the fandom (as a whole) while non-existant ships never get a second look.

As far as the 'I love you's' go. You got it spot on. She meant it, he didn't believe her. I do believe she loved Spike, unfortunately it wasn't the kind of love it should have been. Her declaration lacked something and no, I can't blame Spike for not believing her either.

You're analysis of TGIQ was a wonderful read. I'm going to have to watch that episode again and then re-read what you wrote. You hit on a lot of points that I remember thinking back then.

About reading Spuffy fic in general, I'll read pretty much anything except for all human fics. I guess the canon left me so wanting for closure that I'm STILL reading fic like it's going out of style (which I hope it doesn't any time soon).

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I always end up debating Buffy's and Spike's final scene together even in my own head which, I suppose, in a way is deep writing... but my inner twelve year old continues to be frustrated even if my inner fanfic writer likes to play with the issues left over by the scene.

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

Hi, I wandered in on deborahmm's rec. Interesting post. It has never occurred to me before that Spike didn't go and find Buffy when he was re-corporialised because he would lose the chance of believing she loved him. That is a nice suggestion.

Speaking as someone who doesn't ship Spuffy, but liked how it was portrayed on the show, I often wonder why you Spuffies get so het up about what the rest of the fandom thinks about you. Why do you care? You are the biggest ship, you got three seasons worth of show time (given that Season 1 was only half a season that is more than B/A ever got) and you have many of the best fic writers in fandom producing stuff for your amusement. And personally I reckon all the ambiguity is what makes it interesting.

So you have to justify your ship? Every ship does with the possible
exceptions of B/A and Willow/Tara. And even those have debatable points. Joss deliberately wrote in ambiguous terms and included shades of meaning to allow people to see things in as many ways as he wanted. This doesn't mean he himself is undecided, it means he very much wants his shows to cause discussion amongst fans and spark ideas off in our heads. He is quite clear about this in several DVD commentaries. If you feel you are having to justify things then you are doing exactly what Joss wanted.

From my perspective you come across as a bunch of middle-class white males complaining about prejudice - yep, there may be some, but give us all a break while the really disadvantaged get a turn *G*

I suspect my own tendency to associate Spuffy with fluffy fics has to do with two things. One - the rhyme, which is more influential on my own thinking than it should be. Spuffy just sounds like something that silly girlies who like pink bows and happy endings would get into. And secondly because when I started out in fandom there were a real rash of Spuffy kitchen fics where it really did all end with babies and picket fences.

As for Buffy in TGIQ - the whole show is about the joke. All continuity of characterisation has been ditched for the sake of the funny, and because it was incredibly funny I am not complaining. That wasn't Buffy, it was a plot device to throw up some issues about the boys. The show would have been much duller if the writers had insisted on developing every single story line with an eye on ships or continuity. Yes, it might have been more satisfying for us as fic writers and fan wankers, but as TV it would have been duller. And ultimately a TV show does have to be judged as TV.

Besides, you reckon it portrayed Buffy in a bad light? Stop and think about how us Angelus/William shippers must feel after TGIQ. Buffy got off lightly.

[owenthurman.livejournal.com]

Angelus/William The Bloody shippers in TGiQ?

Sure, they were ineffective against the Immortal. But I didn't buy that at all--Angelus would have had them lay in wait and Willliam would have eviscerated him and his bodyguards in a fountain of fists and fangs.

Then there's that intimate "once." It must have happened just as the girls headed off into the bath together. Just look at the boys consoling each other.

Remember, it's canon!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Speaking as someone who doesn't ship Spuffy, but liked how it was portrayed on the show, I often wonder why you Spuffies get so het up about what the rest of the fandom thinks about you.

It's just human nature. It's "this is my beloved baby, why would you want to spit on it?" We may be secure yet still grow annoyed when someone tries to marginalize it. Sometimes we want to stamp our foot and say, "It's my baby. I love it. And I resent you spitting on it." Human nature.

personally I reckon all the ambiguity is what makes it interesting.

True enough. I think that's largely why it has spawned a lot of fic.

This doesn't mean he himself is undecided.

I suppose seeing his not taking a stand yet handing out cookie crumbs can occassionaly feel like being patronized. The feeling passes, but it sometimes rears its head.

give us all a break while the really disadvantaged get a turn *G*

Heh. Except, I'm not really sure who the 'disadvantaged' in fandom are supposed to be. That's why I become irritated with the "shouldn't" and "can't." Why, whenever it's a ship other than our own, do some feel the need to deem it "out of character?"

As I said, I don't understand the purpose of marginalizing a fanfic genre. We all saw the same text, but people walked away with many different subjective views. When there's an ongoing canon, I (suppose) I can understanding battling the interpretation wars. But when canon is over and fanfic is all that's left, why bother? Fandom is an open playing field. There's room for everyone's ships and kinks. Why marginalize someone else's as "wrong"? Why not co-exist peacefully? (Yeah, and I know the words to kumbaya too. ;)

Spuffy just sounds like something that silly girlies who like pink bows and happy endings would get into.

I was rather shocked by the suggestion I read in another debate that 'all' Spuffy was fluffy (God, that rhymed, didn't it? Yech.) I've read plenty of angst ridden Spuffy. What shocked me was the implication that the existence of fluff in BtVS fic was unique to Spuffy. I've been in a few fandoms, and I can assure anyone that fluff is universal. Every fandom has it. Every pairing has it. Why single out Spuffy? Does fluffly Spuffy exist? Heck, yeah. [And I'm with Deborah in wondering how someone is defining 'fluff,' because I think there's 'fluff' (lighthearted, comedic) and there's schmoop (maudlin, purple prose)] At any rate, Spuffy fluff and schmoop do exist. I just found it curious that someone claimed the existence of fluff and/or schmoop was unique to Spuffy when I've seen examples in every fandom. I also bristle at the concept that 'fluff' (not schmoop) is inherently bad in the first place. Not all fic needs to be angst ridden. And angst isn't an instant stamp of 'intelligent and deep' (and I have to say, at this point, considering how mainstream slash has become in every fandom, I don't think slash comes with an automatic guarentee of 'edgy and innovative.') Every genre has fics of quality and crap. I don't like sweeping generalizations.

Besides, you reckon it portrayed Buffy in a bad light? Stop and think about how us Angelus/William shippers must feel after TGIQ.

Heh. I have no problem with the way Angelus and William are portrayed (or Spike and Angel). They are capable of being dufusses. Doesn't mean that Angelus wouldn't rip someone's throat out or that William couldn't be a bloody terror, just that they could have bad days. I never saw that it caused any problems with the Angelus/William ship. It just throws a chink in the interpretation that it was always dark, twisted, and angsty. Sometimes, they were doufs. And that's okay by me.

(And I still think Buffy ending up with a cipher who could be played by Fabio makes her seem bubbleheaded. :)

[shapinglight]

I've recently been trying to deal with the whole did Buffy really love Spike question in fanfic though it'd be up to people who read the story to say whether I succeeded in convincing them she did. I certainly don't think he believed her when she said it in Chosen and I'm not quite sure what she'd have to do to convince him (TGiQ makes it pretty clear he doesn't think he has a chance with her, he just doesn't want Angel to have her either).

As basically a Spangel 'shipper, it's easier for me to cope with the ambiguity and not feel disappointed, I suppose, but I do share the frustration of those who constantly have to justify their 'ship in face of - oh, I don't know, Buffy/Giles or Spike/Xander 'shippers neither of whom have a leg to stand on.

I also agree that to see Spuffy fics being categorised as all fluffy by people who have probably only read about two (I've seen the same Bangel shipper state twice now that all Spuffy fics she's come across are too fluffy and I wonder where on earth she's been looking for them) is very irritating. Not to mention, there is nothing wrong with fluffy fics that are well-written and full of humour. I treasure them. Writing humour is hard - harder than angst, I think, and I get quite tired of fics that are nothing but angst. The show wasn't like that. Even the angstiest episodes had their funny moments (except maybe The Body) and to act as if all fluffy fics are the same are particular characteristic to one 'ship that a person particularly dislikes is irritating in the extreme.

I wonder sometimes if by 'fluff' they mean 'schmoop,' which isn't quite the same.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that I giggle when a Bangel accuses Spuffy of having fluffy fics. Making a pot and kettle comment at that point seems just too obvious. (As does a glass house analogy). Instead I just sort of goggle and wonder how someone can blind themselves to their own circumstances quite so completely.

And, you know, I totally agree with you on the "fluff" and "schmoop" thing. Schmoop is general ridiculous and tends to involve purple prose. Fluff, I think, is just romantic comedy. It's a genre and not a particularly easy one at that. And, because of its difficulty, I don't really agree that it is of any less quality than deep dark angst (which, quite frankly, is equally capable of having egregious loads of schmoop. ::sheds and emo tear::)

I sort of wondered at the "all fluff" accusation (which in the conversation in question I think was really code for "Spuffy is ridiculous, how can anyone ship Spuffy. It's DUMB because Spike is E.VIL. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.) At any rate, the 'all fluff' thing just made me wonder, why would anyone want an 'all angst' genre? Doesn't it become repetitive? (As does 'all fluff') Not every fic can be everything to all people. Not every fic can address every problem in a relationship. And sometimes comedy can deal more effectively with some issues, and have just as much insight. Sue me. Sometimes I'm in the mood for angst or soul searching, and sometimes I want lighter fare. And there's really not a damn thing wrong with that. Variety. It's a good thing.

[shapinglight]

Enh! Made a mess of that.

I meant, 'to act as if all fluffy fics are particular to one 'ship that one dislikes'

[hazel75.livejournal.com]

Heh, I agree with a huge amount that you said. Mainly, what I saw in S7 of BtVS from Buffy towards Spike was obligation. I never saw Buffy get any joy out of any of her interactions with him -- comfort or aid, yes; happiness, no. And that just sucked to me. Frankly, I liked them more in S6 -- there were moments of happiness. They were clouded by shame and doubt but there was some joy. Which is one of the reasons I cannot dislike Gone despite the crappy voiceover.

And, frankly, I'd like for both Buffy and Spike to be with someone who makes them happy. Not someone who reminds them of all the bad things they've done and makes them (however, unintentionally) feel guilty and full of obligation all the time. When I watch S7, I can't help but wonder if maybe too much bad didn't happen for them to ever be able to be with each other happily.

I dunno. Everyone's mileage may vary.

One point where I differed from you -- I have watched Five by Five and Sanctuary exactly twice in my life. The first time when they aired and the second time a year or so ago to see if they still enrage me the way they used to. And, yep, I cannot watch these episodes without becoming absolutely filled with red-eyed rage....towards Angel. I loathe Angel and his nobility and his sense of honor in these episodes. They make me want to do really, bad things to him. But then I've never liked Faith pretty much at all. Just funny -- how similar and different the same people's views can be :)

[owenthurman.livejournal.com]

It's funny but for these same reasons, I believe that Buffy did love Spike in S6, but I also think she's not telling the truth in Chosen.

No matter how much they need each other it won't make up for losing Life Serial and Gone OAFA and and (heck) What's My Line or Lover's Walk with the idea that they could just be happy to be working together or fighting together. The S7 relationship doesn't have any joy in it, like everything in S7 (but Andrew and Anya).

And that's what I felt that I missed, too. Declaring their love and suffering for each other with "when I kiss you I want to die" was the Bangel schtick and I didn't like it even when a beau suited to it was playing it. Spike and Buffy could have had a happy working relationship even without the romance in S7, but the need for "ambiguity" was more important than storytelling and Buffy couldn't be allowed to enjoy her Spike even for a moment.

(which was just cruel--after all you don't get a gift like Spike often in life and you should enjoy it)

I don't care nearly as much about whether she loved him in her heart as whether she lived good times with him (even if they were angsty overall, they could have been good together). And I was utterly denied that.

Mostly the writers had Buffy to pinched and bitter and embarassed and hard to enjoy anything whenever Spike was around. And that's what makes me feel bad about her, more than mixed messages and eurotrash partying.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Spikeylover (I think) mentioned it, and I have to agree. To me the bigger obstacle isn't whether or not Buffy loved Spike by the end. The problem is that she never wanted to love Spike. She never embraced that love or the concept of loving him, hence, the lack of joy. And love, even if it does exist, is (I think) a living thing. It has to be given light, air, and food to grow. If it's constantly shunned, pushed down, hidden, and shrouded, it eventually dies.

I think, by the end, Spike reached the conclusion that whatever Buffy's feelings are (and they may be real) she never showed any WISH to love him and in the end, that's more of a problem than the existence of love in the first place.

I do tend to think Buffy loved Spike... but she couldn't embrace that love which is why her confession in his dying moments didn't mean a great deal to me and was why I completely understood Spike saying 'No, you don't.' Because, in a way, they were both telling the truth.


And, heh. I think the reason I reacted so strongly to Sanctuary is that you sort of have to understand that Buffy has never been my emotional avatar in the series. She was never once my "favorite." I liked her (more or less) based on where she was in the story, but the truth is I usually preferred the vampires to the Slayer. And quite often, I enjoyed Faith more than Buffy. I completely and totally understood Buffy's fury at Faith. But Buffy's complete inability to grasp why ANGEL would self-identify with Faith (which is what he was doing) completely convinced me that Buffy had no idea whatsoever what made Angel tick. If Angel had to walk away from Faith claiming that she was unredeemable, then he'd have to proclaim himself as incapable of being redeemed. And if he did that, then he had no reason to... exist, basically. Buffy wasn't asking Angel to turn away from Faith. She was asking him to give up on himself or to become a total hypocrit. Buffy didn't have to like or to help Faith. That wasn't the point. The point was in understanding why Angel looked at it differently... why he had to. For Angel to walk away from Faith meant that his whole raison d'etre was pointless. Because Faith never did anything that HE hadn't done a thousand times over.

It's not about Buffy's anger at Faith or wanting Faith dumped down a hole. It's Buffy's inability to understand Angel or his motivation that convinced me that she had no concept of WHO the man she claimed to love actually was.

[owenthurman.livejournal.com]

That's a very nice essay and I like it. Even agree with most of it, especially how I feel jerked around by ME with ambiguity that made actual story suffer.

I wondered at first what upset me about TGiQ so much. The boys were adorable and hilarious. Illyria was disturbing and wrong, as intended. Everything came out very well with the Spike & Angel relationship.

But the off screen Buffy was really treated very badly from an AtS point of view. I dislike plenty of what she did in S5-7 of BtVS, but I don't like that kind of disrespect to our heroine.

Objectively it's not so bad. She is spending her nights in, giving up slaying, according to Andrew and that's the worst we hear. But the implications of that from a AtS, 'the fight is never over' perspective is pretty bad. And the subtext is that she has joined with a frivilous responsibility-free lifestyle where she dates the morally ambiguous rich folks, shops for shoes, ignores demon fights five meters from where she's dancing, flits around clubs till wee hours, and such.

Dating the Immortal is not so bad. I see it as analagous to Wes/Lilah or the popular fanfic Spike/Costa Bianchi or Spike/Illyria with the amoral and potentially evil partners who are appreciated but not taken seriously as long term partners/allies. Maybe it's a double standard for the girls who are supposed to stay snow white while the boys can date morally ambiguously. Andrew takes care of the not taken seriously bit at the end. The problem is the implied lifestyle as a whole.

By the way, I don't see Buffy not knowing about Spike as Spuffy-positive. He lied about his existence for a year. The most Spuffy-positive interpretation possible for that would be angry Buffy breaking his nose before sending away Mr. insensitive forever. More likely is done-my-grieving-now-go-away Buffy.

And I don't see TGiQ as Bangel neutral. He still won't pursue actual Buffy enough to wait in her apartment and his whines about cookie dough sound distinctly dog-in-the-manger. Then he mixes up her eye color with Darla's. AtS showrunners clearly think that neither Buffy nor Angel ever knew the other beyond a symbol of mysterious boyfriend/pure redemption. That's consistent with AtS canon (seriously anti-Bangel) all along.

[bluekaty.livejournal.com]

That's interesting. I never thought of Ats being anti-Bangel but now that you say it I agree with you. I watched "I will remember you" only after everybody had seen it and having heard it described as the quintessential Bangel, I prepared myself to cringe and suffer. In fact it was quite an anti-climax and I had the impression Angel did not seem all that bothered about losing Buffy (again)- I actually thought it was just me, obviously not being able to recognise "true love" when I see it.

(sorry to come into the discussion like this, I hope I did not barge in)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

The problem is in the implied lifestyle as a whole.

Exactly. Buffy has become involved with a pretty face...and nothing more. And that just makes her seem shallow by extension. And the entire frivolous lifestyle (which is all we are told) does nothing to counter that impression.


As to whether it's "Spuffy positive" that she doesn't know, I think it's Spuffy Neutral. That Spike hasn't told her is a given at that point so it's not like TGIQ creates that situation. And, actually, it hasn't been a year at that point. Spike spent an inordinate amount of time as an ineffectual ghost and Angel was refusing to tell Buffy (not that Spike couldn't have found another way if it had tried, but it is [ME's favorite thing] plausible deniability. And, ultimately while it is wrong for Spike not to tell Buffy, I can empathize with him far more than if I knew that Buffy knew and she made no effort to see him, not even to smack him in the face for it. The simple fact is she knows that he died believing that she didn't love him. She knows that he selflessly sent her on her way to escape. And she knows that there are a lot of reasons that Spike didn't believe her words of love. For that reason, if she found out he was alive, she's just giving truth to Spike's "No you don't" if she doesn't show up... even if it's just to say "You jerk, I meant the words then!" out of pure defiance if nothing else. As many extraordinary steps that Spike took to be worthy of her notice, and in knowing that he died not believing that she loved him, while she would have legitimate reason to be pissed with him, I still think in many respects the ball was left in her court. If she really loved him, she needed to make some effort to give action to word. God knows Spike did countless times so I can forgive him that this time he's paralyzed by caring too much. Therefore, I tend to think it's better to think she didn't know than that she did... not that I hold out any hope for a happy reconciliation. Just... I don't know. I prefer it if she didn't know (and then I'd have to be more angry with her.)

[rahirah]

Yeah. What you said. I can see so many interpretations of Buffy's behavior that I can never commit to any one of them. :/

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Sigh. Yeah. I can be positively contradictory on the subject as well.

[paratti.livejournal.com]

You put your fingers on many of the reasons I no longer watch the show or consider myself a Joss fan, despite my undying love for Spike.

I got no payoff. I got years of misery and abuse for the character I loved and me as a fan of him. And Joss's idea of a 'happy ending' was basking, denial, ILYNYDBTFSI (so I'd even be denied the right to be upset about it if Spike says thanks for a self-serving lie to make Buffy feel better) the unmourned death of the only characters I loved as a bunch of toe-rags joked and a fade-to-black-imagine-you-got-a-payoff. Followed by weekly obligatory Spike diss's in ATS. It wasn't worth it. I wish I'd never started watching the show and will never give Whedon one cent more of my money so he can do it to me again.

Especially as the show and his body of work remains fatally flawed by gender politics built on what can only be described as an appalling travesty of feminism - from which all that I find problematic in it derives.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Well, I do have to admit that when push comes to shove in a Jossian debate over whether ambiguity is his genius or whether it was due to muddled-headedness and wussing out, 9 times out of 10 I come down on the side of "wussing out."

And, yeah, don't get me started on Jossian "feminism." He might mean well by it (He probably does. I know! Hard to believe sometimes, but I at least think HE thinks so), but frankly some of his "feminist" ideas gives this feminist the heebee-jeebees.

[prophecygirrl.livejournal.com]

So, yeah, I was in on that discussion on Salieri's journal, and I've been feeling foolish all day because I was a bit wishy-washy in my some of my answers to the questions. But, like you, I think it's clear that Joss' agenda had more to do with pleasing everyone (that is, not destroying their 'ship). And, so, pleased no one in the way of giving a satisfying resolution to the romantic angles. They were always secondary to him, anyway. I actually got the feeling that he thought they were beneath him, but maybe he just wanted the whole "girl power" theme to stand on its own. Which is understandable, I suppose. Meh.

Now, at least, I know why I feel different things on different days about Chosen. TGIQ, though, I am suspending judgement on -- we are left with much, much less to go on here, and I'm willing to give Buffy the benefit of the doubt. Damned frustrating, though.

Wonderful essay. I think your last paragraph sums it up nicely. OK to friend you?

[st_salieri.livejournal.com]

So, yeah, I was in on that discussion on Salieri's journal, and I've been feeling foolish all day because I was a bit wishy-washy in my some of my answers to the questions.

I really, really hope you didn't feel uncomfortable commenting there. I know it got a little crazy in there, but I really enjoyed reading what you had to say, and I appreciated you commenting.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

you (ship-you) have worked up a big sense of entitlement.

Not entitlement so much as frustration. If it died in Season 6 (which, in many ways it did) then at least have the guts to have the characters admit it, don't keep teasing but always in some half-assed/plausibly deniable way. I was plenty happy with Spike not with Buffy in AtS. If they were never going to be more than the tease, then move along. Much like Buffy, in Season 7 they were neither willing to let Spuffy go nor fulfill it. It became not one thing or the other. Hence, frustration.

And I most certainly didn't want the show to turn into "just romance." The show I was attracted to had humor, adventure, danger, darkness, and romance. What I didn't want was two years of depressive angst that became pointlessly meandering. Back in Season 5 there was joy as well as sorrow. By season 7, the Spike/Buffy interaction was mostly endless variations in pain, and if I had wanted that I would have continued shipping Bangel.

You've lost me. What 'shouldn't' and 'can't'? And out of character for whom?

I think you missed the original debate. I linked to rahirah's post discussing it, which linked to the actual 'debate' where a LJ community of fanfic writers deemed an entire genre stories as "out of character" (Basically, any story that didn't have Spike as 100% unredeemable were 'out of character' and that all Spuffy was mindless fluff, yadda, yadda, fishcakes. Nothing that hasn't been seen a million times before, but has become an irritant through repetition. I mean, jeez. Like I said before, what's so wrong with genres peacefully co-existing? Why marginalize fic that's not my kink? You can follow the trail of links from my original post to see the initial 'debate'.

I think of Spuffy as hugely intertwined with redemptionism, which always seemed to me to be in denial of Spike's darker and more edgy side,

That's assuming redemptionism was in denial about Spike's darker side and, quite honestly, that has never been my experience of the majority of Redemptionists (or better Spuffy fics). I agree that Spuffy is linked to redemptionism and its influences (then again, I am a redemptionist so ::shrug::. I consider myself redemptionist and not Spuffy (at least canonically). I haven't been canonically Spuffy since some point in Season 6 (fanfic however still interests me).

Also, I've never really bought into the underlying sentiment that "dark and edgy" is inherently superior to other genres. Sometimes I like dark. Sometimes I enjoy adventure. Sometimes I like comedy. And I considered canon BtVS (and AtS) to be all three. I like all three, so why choose? The whole "dark and angsty" versus "comedic and/or romantic" is a difference in style and preference not quality.

I'd never deny that Spuffy schmoop exists. It does. I've bailed on many a Spuffy fic for being sacchrine... but the same is true of some X-Files fic and some Farscape fic and some Bangel fic and some Spangel fic and some Spesley fic. The existence of schmoop isn't pairing specific. And, unfortunately, usually that sort of generalizing is really just an effort at marginalizing "ship which isn't my ship" or the "kink that's not my kink."

It's like if I said "Slash is only about teh p0rn." I know better slashfics explore characters and ideas, just like every other genre does. Why reduce it to "it's nothing but p0rn?" It's demeaning to its writers. That is the problem that I'm complaining of, just a different side of the coin.

And I never thought that people write slash "to be edgy", just that there is often an underlying critical sentiment that somehow slash, by virtue of what it is, is more daring because it's transgressive. However, given how prevalent slash has become in fandoms, I don't see it as being outside the mainstream (in fanfic). It's just another fanfic genre with the virtues and flaws of every other genre.