Game of Thrones: Dance with Dragons
Jun. 9th, 2015 09:16 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shipperxThe episode where we discover how Stannis Baratheon is a lot like Twangel.
A couple of days late but thoughts and reactions:
* I hope![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
shapinglight is somewhat relieved. I always felt confident that the show was never going to skip the "hell yeah!" of Dany escaping assassination and wrangling Drogon. That was just too cinematic of an event to be changed, albeit there were minor changes, most of which I approve of. The moment of Jorah throwing the spear at Dany worked. I actually did a bit of a gasp as he did it. In the book the near assassination is poison, and it's one of the unsullied who dies (and it's possible that the poisoning was Hizdar's doing but that's never confirmed, or at least hasn't been yet). Here Hizdar buys it (it sure looked that way) while in the book Hizdar survives and is playing along with the rumor that Dany died by dragon.
In the book there is an army from Yunkai that's been hanging around the gates and an invasion force from Volantis on its way, but I think the show is skipping over those (thank god!), so I'm thinking the show won't be bogged down in Mereen much longer (I HOPE!)
* Dorne is still perplexing. Not much is going on. I'm still assuming that something is happening next week, but other than pretty scenery (I loved Doran's tiles parlor) not much to say other than a much needed light moment when Bron is punched. Sorry, Bron, but I know he can take it.
* And that brings us to the tough part of the episode -- Stannis Baratheon becoming Twangel. Admittedly, I've never been a Stannis fan. In the books I found him even less likable or rootable than the show's version. I think he hits some of my own hot buttons for me, but I've honestly been amazed by the fervency of his fan support because I've always found him more reprehensible than not.
Plus, he suffers a bit of Xander Harris fan syndrome. There were times in the BtVS fandom where I had to remind myself that Xander the character not being responsible for the misogyny of his fans. There have been times where I've had to remind myself that Stannis isn't responsible for the fact that a lot of his biggest fanboys give off the major whiff of misogyny (that said, in the book's Theon's sister pretty blatantly categorizes Stannis as a sexist...which, not uncommon in these characters in their fictional time period, but I admitted that I agreed with Asha in her assessment). At any rate, I've had a problem with some Stannis fanboys on Watchers on the Wall because there is this curious hypocrisy where they fanboy Stannis for the same traits that the excoriate Dany for possessing (namely that her claim to the throne is based on her name -- same as Stannis. And that she's inflexible -- as is Stannis. And arrogant -- as is Stannis. But, what is "unforgivable" in her are the traits they love, love, love in Stannis and there's this little underlying subtext sometimes of "please, god, can we just dispense with the feminist heroine bullshit and let a GUY'S GUY be the One True Hero?!!!" That just gets my back up even when I more than acknowledge that there are all sorts of aspects of Dany that are deserving criticism and skepticism. Just don't "hate" her for the exact same traits they're lauding Stannis for.
At any rate, Stannis murdered his daughter this episode. And he does it with pre-meditation because that is, of course, the reason he sent Davos away, because Davos would've made a hell of a scene over this.
Now, I've seen arguments that this is "out of character" for Stannis, but I don't believe that it is, and not just because the show producers came out and said that GRRMartin gave them the scene.
I liked the review of the episode someone wrote saying that because something is extreme for a character does not mean that it is OUT of character. This is an extreme for the character, that is true. But it is only an extreme, it is not out of character because... quite honestly, he's always been building to this.
Stannis has been burning followers all along. First because they wouldn't bend the knee and convert to the Lord of Light, while at the same time we're made to know that Stannis himself doesn't much believe in the Lord of Light. It's bad enough to be a fanatic (see the Faith Militant) but somehow it's worse to be a hypocrite torching non-believers when you yourself hardly believe, but, hey, the god you hardly believe in says there's a prophecy that you are the very most special snowflake in the whole wide world (you see where I'm getting the Twangel of it).
It's a little bit like this dialog from this episode:
The allure of the Red God for Stannis, is not religion. It's the prophecy. The one that says he's ooooh so very, very special. He's the very, most special snowflake ever. What's more, it supports him as being "the one true king".
This is the guy who when we're introduced is feeling underappreciated because he had done great deeds in Robert's Rebellion and that he feels he didn't get the reward and recognition he deserved.
This is the guy whose younger brother managed to talk half of Stannis' own bannermen into supporting a younger brother's claim to the throne because they didn't like the humorless (compassionless) unbending older Baratheon.
This is a guy who has a chip on his shoulder and something to prove, and along comes the Red Priestess saying, hold on now, you're the most special everything EVAH! And if you follow what I say, you'll prove it to everyone. You'll be king and the greatest hero that ever heroed.
So, yeah, in this analogy, Melisendre is a talking dog and Stannis is Angel about to kill off hundreds of Slayers so that he can get to happy togaland.
I know there's the argument that Stannis is lawful... I hesitate to use good or evil. Lawful neutral, I suppose? Stannis is (supposedly) rule oriented. Only, much as he's fighting beneath a fanatical religious banner without being a true believer, he's a rule follower who... we're back to quoting Tyrion about how easy it is to enforce "what is" when the order of things "works to your benefit".
Let's examine Stannis' Rule adherence.
Don't worship who he tells you to? You get burned at the stake (but then... he doesn't even much believe the religion himself). Don't bend the knee to him (even if you're an honorable guy), burn at the stake. Because following code, is everything, right?
...Except, this is the same guy who was willing to break rules a few episodes ago to make Jon the Lord of Winterfell (even as Jon tells him that Sansa still lives {does Jon know that Bran and Rickon are alive? Sam saw them. I know that in the books Sam was sworn to silence, but I don't remember in the show). At any rate, Jon specifically mentions Sansa and despite her being the "legitimate" heir (the one the rules stipulate) Stannis is willing to throw that over because having Jon as Lord of Winterfell would benefit Stannis.
Also, as Jon points out, short of death, it's forbidden for Jon to leave the Watch. The very first episode of the series has Ned, the very most 'honorable' of men, makes this point. He's beheads a guy he actually feels almost sorry for because "honor", because THIS is what the RULES stipulate. And yet Stannis, who so loudly proclaims rules, rules, rules is advocating A) BREAKING THE RULE and B) VIOLATING Jon's VOW.
So, yeah, Stannis is all about "rules"... as long as they are reinforcing a status quo that benefits him.
In other words... he's a hypocrit. Just as he's a hypocrit with this religious war, he's a hypocrit where rules and honor are concerned. Rules and honor are defined by what serves his goal.
Stannis is always but always about achieving his goal (and it just so happens that his goal is that he's Azor Ahai and the One True King. Sure, he speaks of duty, but -- again -- the duty he defines also manages to dovetail into the prophecy that he and he alone deserves the throne and that he's the most specialist snowflake EVAH.
His goal is his ambition. And we know he'll follow a god he doesn't believe for it. He'll ask others to break their vows. He'll violate honor by siring a shadow baby assassin on a questionable priestess, to kill his own brother for 'usurping' Stannis' 'rightful' place (for the throne). He'll sacrifice his own nephew for nebulous results (really, did the leaches REALLY kill Joffrey and Robb or was it their perfectly ordinary enemies). IN the show, it's bad enough that he'll willing to kill Gendry, but in the book it's not Gendry, it's the nephew that Stannis has raised from birth! that he's willing to burn for "kings blood".
Storywise, we've been set up for this all along. We know that Stannis will overlook loyalty as simply his due (look at his chopping off Davos' fingers for 'theivery' even as it was Davos saved Stannis's ass).
We know that Davos thought that Stannis would kill his nephew (in the book the nephew he raised) for "kings blood" which is why Davos spirited him out of Stannis clutches before Stannis burned him.
In the book, Jon does everything he can to get Mance Rayder's child out Castle Black because he's convinced that when things get dire, that Stannis will burn Mance's child for "kings blood".
In the book, while trapped in the encampment, Stannis is already burning the noblemen who are his followers because they're as close to "kings blood" that they have on hand, and Asha/Yara Greyjoy is preparing herself to soon be next up for the fire, because she can do the calculus.
These have been worked into the story to lead to an inevitable end -- Shireen is King's Blood Chekov's Gun.
It's already been prophesied as Melisendre told Stannis once that he will betray his family and all he loves.
This is the character in his most extreme. This is where we wish the character would not go. But it is not out of character. The character traits that could combine to lead him here have been written into the character from the beginning -- the ambition, the arrogance, the rationalization of self-service as "duty", the myopic focus on goal that allows him to justify his means (however ruthless they might be). This is the character in extremis, but it's where he could go, and would go with the right push.
Now, yeah, in the book the situation is slower (everything in the book is slower). So in the show, he goes from Castle Black to starving outside Winterfell in a couple of episodes whereas it's more protracted in the book (and they've already resorted to burning his followers AND cannibalism in camp, so there's more pressure on him there). I'm sure there will be wrinkles in the book that are not here (at the very least, Shireen AND Melisendre are not with Stannis outside Winterfell in the book). But I really don't doubt that it will be Stannis who gives the order to ultimately burns Shireen. It's the inevitable downward spiral of the character. His downfall of hubris is set in (come on, only the most devoted of Stannis fanboys and Stannis actually believe that he's Azor Ahai. He doesn't even fit the criteria. Come on, Azor is most likely Jon. And if it's not Jon it's Dany. The one it isn't, is Dany) so Stannis is set to be misled. He's a tragedy in the making. And with two close calls where someone steals a child child from Stannis to keep him from burning a kid for his king's blood (Edric and "Monster") the third time, it's almost inevitable the most tragic only kid not spirited out of Stannis's clutches -- Shireen. It's not the inevitable tragedy or even a shock of Milesendre does it. She IS a true believer (even if she is set to defect to the next Azor Ahai). And I doubt it is Selyse because that would be just too damn easy (a bigger shock is that she's the one who chicken's out when push comes to shove).
No, Stannis is the tragedy here. The "honorable" man brought low by his ambition. Macbeth who is seduced by prophecy into bringing about destruction and downfall. (Selyse will no doubt soon be "out, out damn spot"ing in the near future.
Stannis is a classic archetype -- a 'good man' blind to his own ambition. The "goal justifies the means" guy who loses sight that the means defines you as much or more than the goal. The MEANS shows us that Stannis is not a good ruler.
He never has been. He's a competent soldier (and maybe his allure for some fans is the allure of competency in fiction. It can be alluring). But he's too easily led to think that goals are justifications in and of himself. He's too resistant to allowing doubt. As we've been told from the start, he is the type who will break before he will bend. He's bound to break, because the thing about his compassionless judgements is that when he realizes that he is NOT Azor Ahai, what will he be forced to conclude? That he sacrificed the one who loved and believed him him, who trusted him -- a trust he should have honored to his own death -- for... his ambition.
Again we have Tyrion's words (this time from last week) about devotion to a leader and how a leader who kills those who are devoted to him is not the kind to inspire devotion in others.
Note the look of disgust on Stannis's men's faces as Stannis kills his own daughter.
Which leads to one neat contrast in the episode is also about drawing apart versus drawing together.
There were flaws in the Drogon/Dany/Her Followers scene because it was restaged some from the books. And because the scene had to accomplish enough danger that Dany needed to get Drogon out and yet also have her not abandon Jorah, Daaria, Missendei, and Tyrion (thus the mysteriously disappearing Harpies, leaving J&D&M&T standing unmolested watching Dany soar).
But the gist in Book and in the show is that Drogon not only came to his mother's aid, but he was standing there being stabbed and would've stood there until he died (albeit it probably would have taken a lot to kill him). His wings being damaged (I noticed the hole in his wings. That was a neat graphic) and,here, his mother would not allow the child's sacrifice.
I also liked her reaching for the human contact of Messendei, and her taking Jorah's hand in peace... and no, I'm not worried about grayscale. 1) In the book Jorah doesn't have grayscale 2) they tell us in the book that Targaryen's are notoriously immune to infectious disease. The hand holds were for intimacy, not communicable disease). These bonds are stronger at the end of the episode.
Stannis... yeah, Stannis, you can kill the Boltons, but I won't be surprised if eventually Brienne eventually gets Renly's (and Shireen's) revenge.
And Mel? She's just going to find a new horse to hitch her snake oil buggy to.
A couple of days late but thoughts and reactions:
* I hope
shapinglight is somewhat relieved. I always felt confident that the show was never going to skip the "hell yeah!" of Dany escaping assassination and wrangling Drogon. That was just too cinematic of an event to be changed, albeit there were minor changes, most of which I approve of. The moment of Jorah throwing the spear at Dany worked. I actually did a bit of a gasp as he did it. In the book the near assassination is poison, and it's one of the unsullied who dies (and it's possible that the poisoning was Hizdar's doing but that's never confirmed, or at least hasn't been yet). Here Hizdar buys it (it sure looked that way) while in the book Hizdar survives and is playing along with the rumor that Dany died by dragon. In the book there is an army from Yunkai that's been hanging around the gates and an invasion force from Volantis on its way, but I think the show is skipping over those (thank god!), so I'm thinking the show won't be bogged down in Mereen much longer (I HOPE!)
* Dorne is still perplexing. Not much is going on. I'm still assuming that something is happening next week, but other than pretty scenery (I loved Doran's tiles parlor) not much to say other than a much needed light moment when Bron is punched. Sorry, Bron, but I know he can take it.
* And that brings us to the tough part of the episode -- Stannis Baratheon becoming Twangel. Admittedly, I've never been a Stannis fan. In the books I found him even less likable or rootable than the show's version. I think he hits some of my own hot buttons for me, but I've honestly been amazed by the fervency of his fan support because I've always found him more reprehensible than not.
Plus, he suffers a bit of Xander Harris fan syndrome. There were times in the BtVS fandom where I had to remind myself that Xander the character not being responsible for the misogyny of his fans. There have been times where I've had to remind myself that Stannis isn't responsible for the fact that a lot of his biggest fanboys give off the major whiff of misogyny (that said, in the book's Theon's sister pretty blatantly categorizes Stannis as a sexist...which, not uncommon in these characters in their fictional time period, but I admitted that I agreed with Asha in her assessment). At any rate, I've had a problem with some Stannis fanboys on Watchers on the Wall because there is this curious hypocrisy where they fanboy Stannis for the same traits that the excoriate Dany for possessing (namely that her claim to the throne is based on her name -- same as Stannis. And that she's inflexible -- as is Stannis. And arrogant -- as is Stannis. But, what is "unforgivable" in her are the traits they love, love, love in Stannis and there's this little underlying subtext sometimes of "please, god, can we just dispense with the feminist heroine bullshit and let a GUY'S GUY be the One True Hero?!!!" That just gets my back up even when I more than acknowledge that there are all sorts of aspects of Dany that are deserving criticism and skepticism. Just don't "hate" her for the exact same traits they're lauding Stannis for.
At any rate, Stannis murdered his daughter this episode. And he does it with pre-meditation because that is, of course, the reason he sent Davos away, because Davos would've made a hell of a scene over this.
Now, I've seen arguments that this is "out of character" for Stannis, but I don't believe that it is, and not just because the show producers came out and said that GRRMartin gave them the scene.
I liked the review of the episode someone wrote saying that because something is extreme for a character does not mean that it is OUT of character. This is an extreme for the character, that is true. But it is only an extreme, it is not out of character because... quite honestly, he's always been building to this.
Stannis has been burning followers all along. First because they wouldn't bend the knee and convert to the Lord of Light, while at the same time we're made to know that Stannis himself doesn't much believe in the Lord of Light. It's bad enough to be a fanatic (see the Faith Militant) but somehow it's worse to be a hypocrite torching non-believers when you yourself hardly believe, but, hey, the god you hardly believe in says there's a prophecy that you are the very most special snowflake in the whole wide world (you see where I'm getting the Twangel of it).
It's a little bit like this dialog from this episode:
Hizdar: What great thing has ever been accomplished without killing or cruelty?
Tyrion: It is easy to confuse what is with what ought to be. Especially when what is has worked in your favor.
The allure of the Red God for Stannis, is not religion. It's the prophecy. The one that says he's ooooh so very, very special. He's the very, most special snowflake ever. What's more, it supports him as being "the one true king".
This is the guy who when we're introduced is feeling underappreciated because he had done great deeds in Robert's Rebellion and that he feels he didn't get the reward and recognition he deserved.
This is the guy whose younger brother managed to talk half of Stannis' own bannermen into supporting a younger brother's claim to the throne because they didn't like the humorless (compassionless) unbending older Baratheon.
This is a guy who has a chip on his shoulder and something to prove, and along comes the Red Priestess saying, hold on now, you're the most special everything EVAH! And if you follow what I say, you'll prove it to everyone. You'll be king and the greatest hero that ever heroed.
So, yeah, in this analogy, Melisendre is a talking dog and Stannis is Angel about to kill off hundreds of Slayers so that he can get to happy togaland.
I know there's the argument that Stannis is lawful... I hesitate to use good or evil. Lawful neutral, I suppose? Stannis is (supposedly) rule oriented. Only, much as he's fighting beneath a fanatical religious banner without being a true believer, he's a rule follower who... we're back to quoting Tyrion about how easy it is to enforce "what is" when the order of things "works to your benefit".
Let's examine Stannis' Rule adherence.
Don't worship who he tells you to? You get burned at the stake (but then... he doesn't even much believe the religion himself). Don't bend the knee to him (even if you're an honorable guy), burn at the stake. Because following code, is everything, right?
...Except, this is the same guy who was willing to break rules a few episodes ago to make Jon the Lord of Winterfell (even as Jon tells him that Sansa still lives {does Jon know that Bran and Rickon are alive? Sam saw them. I know that in the books Sam was sworn to silence, but I don't remember in the show). At any rate, Jon specifically mentions Sansa and despite her being the "legitimate" heir (the one the rules stipulate) Stannis is willing to throw that over because having Jon as Lord of Winterfell would benefit Stannis.
Also, as Jon points out, short of death, it's forbidden for Jon to leave the Watch. The very first episode of the series has Ned, the very most 'honorable' of men, makes this point. He's beheads a guy he actually feels almost sorry for because "honor", because THIS is what the RULES stipulate. And yet Stannis, who so loudly proclaims rules, rules, rules is advocating A) BREAKING THE RULE and B) VIOLATING Jon's VOW.
So, yeah, Stannis is all about "rules"... as long as they are reinforcing a status quo that benefits him.
In other words... he's a hypocrit. Just as he's a hypocrit with this religious war, he's a hypocrit where rules and honor are concerned. Rules and honor are defined by what serves his goal.
Stannis is always but always about achieving his goal (and it just so happens that his goal is that he's Azor Ahai and the One True King. Sure, he speaks of duty, but -- again -- the duty he defines also manages to dovetail into the prophecy that he and he alone deserves the throne and that he's the most specialist snowflake EVAH.
His goal is his ambition. And we know he'll follow a god he doesn't believe for it. He'll ask others to break their vows. He'll violate honor by siring a shadow baby assassin on a questionable priestess, to kill his own brother for 'usurping' Stannis' 'rightful' place (for the throne). He'll sacrifice his own nephew for nebulous results (really, did the leaches REALLY kill Joffrey and Robb or was it their perfectly ordinary enemies). IN the show, it's bad enough that he'll willing to kill Gendry, but in the book it's not Gendry, it's the nephew that Stannis has raised from birth! that he's willing to burn for "kings blood".
Storywise, we've been set up for this all along. We know that Stannis will overlook loyalty as simply his due (look at his chopping off Davos' fingers for 'theivery' even as it was Davos saved Stannis's ass).
We know that Davos thought that Stannis would kill his nephew (in the book the nephew he raised) for "kings blood" which is why Davos spirited him out of Stannis clutches before Stannis burned him.
In the book, Jon does everything he can to get Mance Rayder's child out Castle Black because he's convinced that when things get dire, that Stannis will burn Mance's child for "kings blood".
In the book, while trapped in the encampment, Stannis is already burning the noblemen who are his followers because they're as close to "kings blood" that they have on hand, and Asha/Yara Greyjoy is preparing herself to soon be next up for the fire, because she can do the calculus.
These have been worked into the story to lead to an inevitable end -- Shireen is King's Blood Chekov's Gun.
It's already been prophesied as Melisendre told Stannis once that he will betray his family and all he loves.
This is the character in his most extreme. This is where we wish the character would not go. But it is not out of character. The character traits that could combine to lead him here have been written into the character from the beginning -- the ambition, the arrogance, the rationalization of self-service as "duty", the myopic focus on goal that allows him to justify his means (however ruthless they might be). This is the character in extremis, but it's where he could go, and would go with the right push.
Now, yeah, in the book the situation is slower (everything in the book is slower). So in the show, he goes from Castle Black to starving outside Winterfell in a couple of episodes whereas it's more protracted in the book (and they've already resorted to burning his followers AND cannibalism in camp, so there's more pressure on him there). I'm sure there will be wrinkles in the book that are not here (at the very least, Shireen AND Melisendre are not with Stannis outside Winterfell in the book). But I really don't doubt that it will be Stannis who gives the order to ultimately burns Shireen. It's the inevitable downward spiral of the character. His downfall of hubris is set in (come on, only the most devoted of Stannis fanboys and Stannis actually believe that he's Azor Ahai. He doesn't even fit the criteria. Come on, Azor is most likely Jon. And if it's not Jon it's Dany. The one it isn't, is Dany) so Stannis is set to be misled. He's a tragedy in the making. And with two close calls where someone steals a child child from Stannis to keep him from burning a kid for his king's blood (Edric and "Monster") the third time, it's almost inevitable the most tragic only kid not spirited out of Stannis's clutches -- Shireen. It's not the inevitable tragedy or even a shock of Milesendre does it. She IS a true believer (even if she is set to defect to the next Azor Ahai). And I doubt it is Selyse because that would be just too damn easy (a bigger shock is that she's the one who chicken's out when push comes to shove).
No, Stannis is the tragedy here. The "honorable" man brought low by his ambition. Macbeth who is seduced by prophecy into bringing about destruction and downfall. (Selyse will no doubt soon be "out, out damn spot"ing in the near future.
Stannis is a classic archetype -- a 'good man' blind to his own ambition. The "goal justifies the means" guy who loses sight that the means defines you as much or more than the goal. The MEANS shows us that Stannis is not a good ruler.
He never has been. He's a competent soldier (and maybe his allure for some fans is the allure of competency in fiction. It can be alluring). But he's too easily led to think that goals are justifications in and of himself. He's too resistant to allowing doubt. As we've been told from the start, he is the type who will break before he will bend. He's bound to break, because the thing about his compassionless judgements is that when he realizes that he is NOT Azor Ahai, what will he be forced to conclude? That he sacrificed the one who loved and believed him him, who trusted him -- a trust he should have honored to his own death -- for... his ambition.
Again we have Tyrion's words (this time from last week) about devotion to a leader and how a leader who kills those who are devoted to him is not the kind to inspire devotion in others.
Note the look of disgust on Stannis's men's faces as Stannis kills his own daughter.
Which leads to one neat contrast in the episode is also about drawing apart versus drawing together.
There were flaws in the Drogon/Dany/Her Followers scene because it was restaged some from the books. And because the scene had to accomplish enough danger that Dany needed to get Drogon out and yet also have her not abandon Jorah, Daaria, Missendei, and Tyrion (thus the mysteriously disappearing Harpies, leaving J&D&M&T standing unmolested watching Dany soar).
But the gist in Book and in the show is that Drogon not only came to his mother's aid, but he was standing there being stabbed and would've stood there until he died (albeit it probably would have taken a lot to kill him). His wings being damaged (I noticed the hole in his wings. That was a neat graphic) and,here, his mother would not allow the child's sacrifice.
I also liked her reaching for the human contact of Messendei, and her taking Jorah's hand in peace... and no, I'm not worried about grayscale. 1) In the book Jorah doesn't have grayscale 2) they tell us in the book that Targaryen's are notoriously immune to infectious disease. The hand holds were for intimacy, not communicable disease). These bonds are stronger at the end of the episode.
Stannis... yeah, Stannis, you can kill the Boltons, but I won't be surprised if eventually Brienne eventually gets Renly's (and Shireen's) revenge.
And Mel? She's just going to find a new horse to hitch her snake oil buggy to.
