Spike Fanfic Pondering

[shipperx]

Just going through my community list (and browsing a few other fanfic community lists), and I'm wondering... are Spuffy-fics either a dying breed or is the Spuffy fanfic community rather insular? I ask this because, while I still see Spuffy show up occasionally on one general BtVS/AtS fanfic list, it's in the minority. Most of the Spuffy fics which pop up are on Spuffy fic lists (and I'm on one Spuffy fic lists that rarely has anything pop up.) However when paging through the fanfic communities that I belong to (and browsing a few others), Spuffy is definitely a minority these days. There was one list where I went back more than a month and the only things rec'd were Buffy/Angel and Spike/Angel fics. There are usually many Spike/Angel fics and Spike/Xander fics. And, as I said, you still see Buffy/Angel.

I'm just wondering, is that just because I don't belong to that many groups or is it actually a case that while Buffy/Angel fic writing continues, a large percentage of Spike fanfic writers either always wrote slash and not Spuffy or have begun writing slash? Is this perception in error? And if it is so (not that I'm saying that's the case, just wondering whether it is), why exactly did Spuffy go passe while B/A fanfic writing cotinues?

Or is it just a mislead entirely and there are actually plenty of Spuffy fics. I see plenty posted on one of my Spuffy lists... but that's a Spuffy list. This sort of begs the question of why are Spuffy fics on Spuffy lists but not gen lists? Have Spuffies just continued the tradition started in Season 5 where general fandom became such a hostile hassel that Redemptionists and Spuffies ceased to bother and just created their own communities? Are Spuffies simply choosing to stay among themselves? Or is it a case where Spuffies feel like the more gen lists might still be hostile? Is it somehow perceived as more fandom-wide acceptable to ship Spike/Angel rather than Buffy/Spike? There's plenty of Spike/Angel on the gen lists, so it's not like the character of Spike is underepresented. So why is slashing Spike prevalent on the BtVS lists but het is rare? Is it the ship or the characterization of Spike? Are these perhaps more of an evilista Spike rather than a redemptionist Spike? (I'm seriously asking. I actually read only a few fics and usually by authors I recognize so I by no means feel that I have adequate sampling of these other fics to make any statement as to their characterization of Spike. I don't have a feel for the characterization in the majority of those fics. I genuinely do not know).

I'm not postulating any specific cause/effect (or even that the perceived effect is real in the first place) so much as simply asking questions.

My observation about the gen lists are completely anecdotal, so I'm not saying my perception is accurate in the first place. I'm just wondering about other's impressions. Am I wandering around in far left field here? Have I misread the circumstances (re: Spuffy and BtVS lists)? Does that perceived number of Spuffy fics represented on the wider fandom lists actually seem lower than that of pairings such as S/A, X/S, or B/A? If it does (and I'm leaving it as if) what -- of many, many possible causes -- is the reason for it? Thoughts? Observations? Anything?

(ETA: And on a totally unrelated to Spike topic, as it refers to something I read on Fandom_Wank... can someone explain to me why there exists slash where the guy grows a vagina? I can get slash as a genre. And not a damn thing is wrong with loving two male characters and wanting them to have sex. But my brain sort of sputters into "huh?" mode when someone wants to write slash but turns one of the male characters into having female genetalia and... uh... it just confuses me is all. And, is that still slash if one of the men is a woman? Or is it just really, really screwed-up het? I'm confuzzled!)

Comments

[molliemole.livejournal.com]

I can't really say what percentage of fics are Spuffy, because I tend to stick to pro-Spike fic communities. I can say that there's a surprising amount of Spike fic in general and Spuffy fic in particular still being written. (And I'm so very pleased that that's happening.)
I can also say that on some general sites (TWOP, for example) every time someone recs a Spike fic, someone else feels compelled to make a snotty comment about Spike, so I don't go there very often for fic recommendations.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Ah well, TWOP is TWOP and as Spike fans were regularly banned from the site (often for simply being Spike fans during the era of BtVS), TWOP has never been something which reflected the fandom at large. TWOP reflects TWOP... in pretty much all their forums, actually. Its tone is almost always set by the mod in charge of the forums and the mods in the BtVS/AtS forums were(are?) virulently, hatefully anti-Spike and anti-Spike fan. It's been that way for ages. It's not even a battle worth fighting. Nearly ever Spike fan I know ceded that battle years ago.

[mary5958.livejournal.com]

I'm just starting to read fic again after reading very little for a couple of years (RL stuff), so for me there are a lot of new and wonderful Spuffy stories/authors. :-) I consider myself lucky in that regard!

My first thought, based on my recollections of the time, is that Spuffy was not well accepted into the 'general' Buffy world. Whether I could back that up factually or not is another matter. (There were some well known happenings, though, including one of the show's writers making less than flattering comments about Spike fans.) I do know that a number - not all, of course - of Buffy/Spike authors grew weary of the frequently hostile environment, of constantly having to defend their 'ship, or worse, being made to feel that they had to apologise for it. So yes, I feel that many B/S shippers abandoned the general fandom and formed their own groups where cheering for Spike and Buffy didn't earn you comments implying you were a deeply screwed up human being.

My own bottom line is that I view online fandom and fanfiction as a way to share the enjoyment these characters have brought into my life, and to have my enjoyment enhanced by the insights of others who care about them as much, if not more, than I do. RL has thrown me enough curve balls. Online fandom is not a place I wish to go for more angst. (I am, and always will be a sucker for a good angsty story, though!!) Instead, I look at online fandome as a place I come to relax and learn, to smile and cry with other fans and to be moved and amazed by their stories. It is also the place I can laugh at myself because, even several years after its run ended, I remain so emotionally invested in a television show -- and there, other people get that!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Oh, I totally understand not wanting to fight the battles. I'm pretty much in that category myself and have stuck primarily, perhaps nearly exclusively, to the Spike redemptionist fandom. And it's not that Spuffy-fics don't exist, because they do. I was just noting that they seem to exist largely in isolation. I wonder, does this give some people the wrong perspective on the actual breakdown of numbers in fandom (and I mean that both in the anti-Spike quarters and in the pro-Spike quarters). We've separated so entirely that we barely acknowledge one anothers existence, and while that's certainly a hell of a lot more comfortable... I guess I sort of hate that some people who only live in the other corners of fandom can exist thinking that Spike really IS universally hated (a quick peruse of TWOP often gives that impression at any rate.)

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Hee. There is some Clex fic when Clark temp becomes a woman. He changes back by the end though!

And I still see a lot of Spuffy fic on my flist *shrug* Maybe the "cool groups" prefer Spike slash more, so Spuffy stick to just Spuffy comms, rather than general Spike places? I mean there was a seperate comm started up after complaints that summer of spike had too much spuffy. So y'know...lol

[kcarolj65.livejournal.com]

"...complaints that

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<i>"...complaints that <lj-community="summer_of_spike"> had too much spuffy?"</i>

How utterly asinine. What the feck did said "complainers" think they were going to read at that site?

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I believe the Summer of Spike had no restrictions of het vs. slash. It just turned out that most of the entries on it were Spuffy. Slashers became upset and went elsewhere. My confusion at that time was that there was no restriction against slash in the com. The submissions seemed entirely voluntary, so if someone wantd to write slash, write it. Instead, they created their own community. Nothing wrong with that, but there was nothing preventing the posting of slash in the original SOS. I suppose it may be just human nature. We all gravitate to where we are the majority...? That may be why Spuffy remains in primarily Spuffy groups. It's a theory, anyway.

[kcarolj65.livejournal.com]

"...complaints that summer_of_spike had too much spuffy?"

How utterly asinine. What the feck did said "complainers" think they were going to read at that site?

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Then anti comm was ridiculous. It accepted all ships, other than Spuffy.

The front page had something about protesting the DT beating, and Spuffy being offensive to see all the time. God knows Xander and Riley have been super sweet to Spike *laughs* But apparently it was only Buffy who shouldn't be sullying Spike

The sad thing is it actually had quite a few members. I mean just excluding the one ship, how petty can you get

[alwaysjbj.livejournal.com]

I and a few other Spuffy authors actually posted on that comm... not because we are anti-Spuffy of course but, and I can only speak for myself here, for a number of reasons... broader readership for one... also one of the organisers is (despite her Spuffy-hatred) a lovely person and a friend of mine... she even wrote a Spuffy drabble for my birthday!! I was saddened that Spuffy wasn't allowed, and didn't see the DT reason as being overly convincing, but then I suppose there are comms out there where other ships aren't allowed?

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I tend to think that the controversy in question had a bit more to do with anti-Buffy feelings than it just being a pure slash controversy. I mean, as rahirah said, there are a number of issues that people have with Spuffy and it's not always a Bangel vs. Spuffy thing or a Slash vs. het thing. Spuffy just seems to be the nexus of many issues and has a degree of controversy because of it.

That said, I thought the SOS controversy was rather overblown since the original SOS seem to be write anything and have few if any restrictions. Nothing prevented other stories except the human nature that makes people prefer to be with the majority.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure of the actual numerical numbers of Spuffy fic versus slash fic versus other pairing fic. That's part of the question. Certainly, Spuffy is still being written, it just seems rather absent on the gen lists and I'm curious as to the causes. And, yeah, I remember the SOS controversy. Never understood it, mind you, but I remember it. :)

And, still somewhat confuzzled about sex change slash...

[kcarolj65.livejournal.com]

Having only been part of the fandom for 2+ years, I can't speak to the evolution of Spuffy fics away from gen sites. If those sites are Spuffy-hostile, I don't want anything to do with them anyway. I suspect that those so-called "gen" sites are actually havens for Bangelites, whose virulent opposition to Spuffy is, IMO, simply an exercise in extreme denial.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what the actual breakdowns were. I wasn't very scientific about my observations just sort of reacting to the lists I perused the other day where...yeah... there seems to be a few invisible lines which have been drawn in the sand where fandom rarely intermingles.

[mbangel10.livejournal.com]

I really don't venture out of my little Spuffy sanctuary but for some reason, in gen. Spike (or Btvs) fic sites, Spuffy seems to be turned a blind eye. I don't know why... maybe the majority of Spuffy writers only stick to Spuffy friendly sites as they know that's where the readers are?

Hmmmm, now you have me pondering.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I understand the historical context of it, because life in the larger fandoms (Usenet, TWOP, The Bronze, etc) became intolerably hostile for pro-Spike fans sometime around Season 5 and only got worse from there. I suppose, though, that I'm still somewhat surprised at how segregated the fandom remains to this day.

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

I've noticed the downturn too, yet seasonal_spuffy seems to be doing okay, but there seems to be very little angsty stuff lately. Illyria fic has all but disappeared too.

Het fic in general seems to be sneered at.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I have a Spillyria fic I want to write someday! (I simply have to finish the two Spuffy WIPS that I've had languishing forever. But, I'm determined to write my Spillyria story.)

And, I'm not criticizing slash in the least, but you know, with slash having become so very, very prevalent in fanfic fandoms, I really cannot understand when some of its writers still seem to think of themselves as being in a minority. At worst, they're mainstream, now.

My glasses pink and shiny.

[appomattoxco.livejournal.com]

I've only been around since season five but I'd say these things come in waves. Acually I've seen an improvement in Spuffy fic lately as the newer crop of writers get better. I'm finding some good new authors after a bit of a dry spell. One of the things I've also found is that some of the writers that have been at it longer are branching out from the romance into Spuffy friendly gen.

Transgender is a kink and for a few people a fact of life I guess. There have been a few good fic writen but mostly they are pretty awful.

Re: My glasses pink and shiny.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Ah well, the one linked on Fandom_Wank was just bad!fic any way you cut it (ew... sorry for that particular choice of words). It just... it confuzzles me. Het fic. Slash fic. And...um... what is it when they take slashfic but make it very odd het fic? It just seems to be a very interesting 180 (or is it a 360? Eek! Math!)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_sharvie_/]

It all depends on what circles you travel in. I used to read nothing but Spuffy and really didn't even notice slash. Now I read nothing but slash (Spander mostly) but still see Spuffy. I like to keep in touch with the Spuffy authors I used to read. Chances are I'll read them again someday. So because I still travel in those circles I still see it. Otherwise I rarely would.

Take darker_spike for instance. It's an anything goes Spike comm. Just Spike or Spuffy, Spru, Spangel, Spander...if it's got Spike in it, it's good to go. But for some reason people still think of us as a slash comm because that's what you'll see a lot of there. But if more Spuffy authors posted then it would even out. *shrug* We do get a variety, but it certainly isn't 50/50. I doubt anything would really be that evened out.

And as much as I hate it, fandom does isolate some people. Ships, communities, likes and dislikes...it seems a lot of people have grudges against a lot of other people for something silly. As someone mentioned above, the SOS rants were a perfect example if you ask me. Slash fans upset there wasn't more slash, so they pulled out? I don't get it. Write more slash for the comm if you want more slash in the comm. But these are the things people argue over. *rolls eyes* And if Spuffy authors are happier posting in areas they won't get attacked? Who can blame them.

Not sure this answered any of your questions though.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Well, purely anecdotally (this is not a scientific sampling) it appears to me that the number of slashfics has been multiplying in recent years such that they do tend to appear the primary shipping fics in fandom these days (or at least on the lists that pop up). Spuffy still exists, it just seems to exist largely in a bubble because they are somewhat sparse on gen lists.

The thing that's curious for me is that while there is (and has been) hostility toward Spike in some quarters, Spangel and Spander fics seem to exist on gen lists, while Spuffy tends to exist on Spuffy lists. Is it something specific about Spuffy that makes it less welcome (or at least for the writers to feel as though they might be less welcome) as opposed to Spangel and Spander which also appear to feature Spike prominently. Is it the character or the ship that's the hurdle to general list acceptance? (Albeit, I have the feeling that it's both and Spuffy just happens to be the convergence of touchy-subjects in anti-Spike quarters).

As for the SOS thing, I stayed out of it at the time. But I had thought at the time that if the issue was why there wasn't more slash, the slash-writers leaving was a bit counter-productive. Not that I don't understand people creating their own groups, because I do. Certainly, I've been part of that on more than one occasion myself. It was just that in the SOS case, I never saw what -- if anything -- prevented anyone from submitting slashfic in the first place. In my memory, it wasn't something which was moderated or required approval. It was a volunteer based thing.

At any rate, I tended to view the SOS controversy as a big tiff about very little. But, that may be a POV thing.

[cy-girl.livejournal.com]

::blinks::

Slash were the guy gets a vagina?

Do they get breasts, too?

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

In general? Dunno. The fic in question was a very BAD (even possibly rapefic) that had created wank and was posted on Fandom_Wank. It was... I can't describe. Car crash, maybe? With disappearing manbits?

[lillianmorgan.livejournal.com]

I think, in general, it comes down to perception. I think, to an extent as well, S/B has always suffered from being one of (if not the) most popular 'ships and therefore people don't feel the need to promote it as much. It's not that it's not out there, it's just that it doesn't get recced as much because people expect it always to be out there. If that makes sense...
yourlibrarian did a recent statistical analysis which shows that S/B is still the most popular 'ship amongst LJ users.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link. It helps with the "is it my imagination?" part of my questions. Turns out that (in some respects) it is. :)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_sharvie_/]

Oh! I totally forgot about the gender switching fics! I just love those. It falls under the slash umbrella but it is its own category. Sort of like mpregs in slash or preg fics in het. (Not sure those are great examples but just think of other subcategories.) In fact one gender switch fic I read was a Spuffy fic with a side order of Spiesly. Definitely a kink of mine.

Hmm, let's see how to explain. Depending on what the author is trying to do it can go a few ways. Firstly there is the whole, "I would never have fallen in love with you cause you are a guy, but I fell in love with you while you were a woman and now that you are back being a guy, I still love you". Those are my favs. Some other avenues are all about subterfuge. The "Ah-ha! He doesn't know I'm me so I can lie right to his face and get the goods on what I want...in the mean time...look at those!"

There are of course more, just depends on the story. It's not so much about slash as about gender roles and gender reversal. If that's something that interests you, as it does me, then it can be a really interesting read.

Don't know if I answered the other question, but at least I did okay on this one. *bg*

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Well, admittedly, the fic which inspired the question is nearly unilaterally considered Bad!fic (non-con badfic at that. Actually, the debate on fandom_wank was whether it was actually rapefic). But... it was bad any way you...er... cut it. (Ouch!)

But, yeah, I still find the whole slash but it's het-slash thing a bit mindbending. Ah well, that's fanfic, it's nothing if not extremely flexible. :)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_sharvie_/]

I try and stay as far away from FW as humanly possible. The fandom is negative enough without having to hunt down the nasty. But I don't like to pigeon hole fics as bad just because of the type of fic. Write it well and I'll buy it. But then again, I already said I like gender switching fics, as well as rapefics. Perhaps the problem might also be labels? If labeled 'gender switch' rather than 'slash' it would make more sense. I think largely the issue here is that both characters were originally male, so therefore most people consider it slash. *shrug*

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Overall, I agree with you about Fandom_Wank. When I complained about it a few weeks ago I thought that Rahirah had a good point in "there but for the grace of God wank I". There are, on occasion, some real lunatics that they unearth. The fic in question was rather hilariously weird (as was the protest that it wasn't 'rape' because they were forced to have sex because of aliens. In which case... um, yeah, still rape. No, it wasn't the other guy who raped the first guy. I'd say that both guys were raped by the aliens that made them have sex with each other (and changed one of them into a woman). And yet it wasn't outrage over any of it, it was just that it was so bad, and the person didn't understand why anyone thought it was a rapefic because 'aliens made them do it.'

But, yeah, I tend to be wary of Fandom_Wank.

[cordykitten]

A lot of Spuffy writers left the fandom (or are writing slash now) but there is still a lot of new authors. Though I miss my old ones *sigh*

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I admit missing some of the stuff produced in post Season 5/pre Season 6. I think that was my favorite fic era. Nostalgia, mmmmm.

[rahirah]

I think some of the main rec lists, like su_herald, were founded by slash writers, so naturally their starting point for recs tended to be writers they were familiar with. They've since branched out, but it's possible some of that initital sampling bias remains.

Spuffy writers may still be segregating themselves, though. I'm on a gen list or two, and there are still people who are very hostile to Spuffy and Spike in general. This doesn't mean no Spuffy gets posted there, but I think it tends to drive the faint of heart away. And there was that whole anti-Spuffy faction that walked out on Summer of Spike, and so on. It's not like S/B is the only ship who ever gets bagged on, of course, but I think that it's one of the few ships that a lot of other factions dislike for a variety of reasons, rather than just the factions that it threatens directly in a romantic sense.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I always found the SOS controversy to be rather overblown and so didn't pay all that much attention to it.

And poor Spike, always the nexus of controversy. Still, it seems somewhat puzzling to me (in a hmm, curious sort of way rather than a grrr, offended way) that somehow Spike in Spangel is more generally acceptable than Spike in Spuffy. It seems that while Spike is very controversial, Spuffy is more controversial still. Spuffy seems to epicenter of Spikean controversies.

[alwaysjbj.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure exactly WHY it happens but I am a member fo a few Spike fic communities and have found that if I do decide to post (and I mostly write Spuffy or sometimes Spike only) the fic is ignored in favour of the slash fics or UC Spike pairings... you get fed up with posting after a while and just give up. In fact a couple of Spuffy comms I am on I have pretty much given up posting on too... if no one is interested in reading the fic why go to the bother of posting it?

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Ah, well, feedback is also its own beast. People have a tendency to read and not always feedback. And sometimes you look and the most egregious pieces of crap have more recs than a good piece of fiction. There really is little that is fair about it. I've always been of the mind that it's best to write what you want to write and not worry too much as to the feedback or awards and such. Maybe you have a small audience, but consider it to be a DISCERNING and TASTEFUL one. :)

[alwaysjbj.livejournal.com]

LOL. Well wasn't talking about only myself... the 'Spike' communities I am on have an overall tendency to ignore any Spuffy fics that are posted while the slash fics and UC pairing fics get plenty of feedback... is it any wonder then that Spuffy authors give up posting to these communities? Posting to a comm is time consuming and with time being a commodity of which there is NEVER enough why would an author take the time to post somewhere where it is obvious that no one is interested?

Basically what I am saying is NO I don't think there is a lack of Spuffy (and good Spuffy) out there... I think a lot of Spuffy writers have just given up posting on non-Spuffy communities.