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shipperxYou know, all this "approaching infinity" stuff was probably some offshoot of my unending quest to try to wrap my non-mathematical mind around the speed of light... and what the hell is light anyway? (Want to reach an existential crisis? Start reading about string theory, relativity, and the speed of light and realize you have no fucking clue what light is. To reach said state of complete intellectual intimidation I suggest: "The Elegant Universe"
And in other things that make my head hurt: Heidegger's "Poetry, Language, Thought"
Yet further in the debate elsewhere:
Never depend on Mutant Enemy to be logical. Never think that they value rational sense and development over a cheap thrill. Why did the trip to Africa look the way it did? Because ME can't break their addiction to audience manipulation in order to provide cheap "plot twists." They told their story, but told it cheaply and without clarity. That is hardly an isolated event. Have Fred castigate Angel for always "running" then make it look like he ran... then reveal it was an audience fake out. Have Buffy stabbed and dying with a mortal wound before the commercial break...then come back, tell the First to get out of her face, make a mile long dash for a bus and end the series smiling. Mortal wound = cheesy mislead. Ah, and then there's the dumbass "the Doctor" thing in AYW. There is no way to look at that and not see it's logistically ridiculous. Spike as "international black market dealer" despite the fact that he a) owns no phone b)hasn't left Sunnydale (or the US in years) c) was quite the pariah in demon society since Season 4 d) couldn't even manage to pay of a KITTEN DEBT a few episodes earlier. Oh for crying out loud, international demon dealer couldn't come up with a few dozen Siamese kittens? How utterly ridiculous is that? And yet, I'm supposed to swallow that crock of crap and accept it as canon. Well, fine. But by that same measure, it has been stated and restated that Spike was going for a soul ALL ALONG. If they can pass off cheap mortal wounds and insanely illogical demon dealers despite the rampant illogic, then pay no attention to the word "bitch." It's a cheap ploy (and ME is in no way above cheap ploys) to distract you so they can have their "plot twist." {tm}
Was it poor writing? You betcha! But then I haven't given ME credit for subtlety for a while now.
They said (even David "I hate Spike" Fury said) that Spike "went for a soul all along." Quibble about it. Call it piss poor execution in the episode (as I do the AR and the dumbass demon eggs) but swallow it whole because ME has placed their stamp of "this is the way it is" on that particular "plot twist" both in interviews and in subsequent Season 7 dialog on the show. It's a done deal. Spike haters... get over it.
Also, as part of an Angel v. Spike debate, it's immaterial. As a Spike fan it matters in the way I view Spike's journey. However in a "my vamp vesus your vamp" debate it's pointless because of the way the whole soul dichotomy has been set up. The soul is a boundary and the souled being is unaccountable for the unsouled beings action. It's the entire foundation of Angel. (And Angel NEVER sought a soul and that's not supposed to diminish him in any respect so in an Angel v. Spike debate why Spike went to get a soul isn't important. . .unless the Angel fan is willing to have Angel take a bit ol' kick in the ass for never having sought one, having killed in an effort to prevent being souled, and in having a soul forcibly foisted on him. . .three times.)
Anyway, that's all extraneous arguing.
Soul in Whedonverse is an absolute moral boundary (I think David Fury would be proud of that consession from the "Serial Killer Lover" he argued on the Bronze with 3 years ago)
I remember during college, my thesis professor made a group of us sit around and discuss the meaning of the word "boundary" for a good three hours (it reached the point where you begin to go "boundary"...when you think about it, it's a funny sounding word, isn't it?. He also did the amusing thing of making us read Heidegger... out loud ...for hours ( Ah. Fun to be had in thesis. ::eyeroll::)
I digress.
Anyway, the soul has been designated as the moral boundary in the Whedonverse. On a x-y axis it is the defining crucial point, it's zero. That is not to say there isn't a vast continuim. There's an infinite number of possibilities on the (-) side. There's an infinite number of possibilities on the (+) side, but those on the (+) side are fundamentally different than those on the (-) side. The thing that's different in Angel's souling and Spike's souling is (and considering how much of a math phobe I am, I can't believe I'm making this analogy) Spike was the "approaching the limit"..."approaching zero" ... "approaching infinity"
What do I mean by THAT?!!
It's that old halving axiom. If you take half the distance between one and zero, then half that distance, then half that distance, and again and again and again. You'll never reach zero (much less surpass it). You can make the distance approaching zero into infinitly small integerm but it doesn't cross the boundary of zero.
Spike was approaching zero.
He was doing halvsies, growing closer and closer to the zero boundary but still on the negative side of the soul axis. Soul = boundary.
So we have the souling. Poor Angel was ripped from -1,000,006 (an approximation :) and placed on the soulhaving (+) side of the axis. Spike had spent three years doing halvsies. Halving the distance between himself and the boundary. . . again, then again, then again. He approached the limit but while soulless there was no getting to the positive side.
The "I am nothing" speech in the crypt then makes a great deal of sense. He had approached zero but still was on the soulless side of the boundary... still he was a heck of a lot closer to zero than -1,000,006. . .which was playing havoc with his entire being because, hey, VAMPIRE!
So being at some fraction approaching zero and facing a boundary there's the choice of giving up, packing up your calculator and going home... or fundamental transformation because only by becoming something essentially different can one be on the OTHER side of the boundary.
A Whedonverse "souled being" is different in some essential way (as per canon that treats soul as boundary) but the "approaching zero" thing allows for evolution within the unsouled context. Souled remains fundamentally different from unsouled, but also recognizes that everything on the (-) side of the axis is not exactly the same, there are varying amplitudes. It is possible to make progress toward 0 even if one is still on the (-) side of the axis.
That was Spike.
But, it still required fundamental, metaphysical transformation to make it to the other side of the boundary.
Angel went to the other side of the boundary because metaphysical change was forced upon him, taking him from the negative contingent to the positive in one fell swoop.
Spike went to the other side of the boundary after approaching zero and recognizing the boundary (soulless, he did not cross it. He only came in approaching contact with it such that the limitations of the boundary could be perceived) leading to the choice of fundamental, metaphysical transformation (souling) that then places him on the other side of the boundary.
Now, does it make sense?
No.
Soul canon makes no sense primarily because it wasn't created as a metaphor for squat. It wasn't created as a philosophical debate (though it has been turned into one.) It was created as part of ME's ongoing pattern of exceptionalism. They needed it to be acceptable for Buffy to have a vampire Angel as a love interest. How to do that? Make him unique. That simple. That's the basis of soul canon. The writer who actually came up with it, admitted it was done on the fly. That said, I don't dismiss it's importance as a moral boundary within the show because, God knows, they've hammered that concept into the ground. It's just that above and beyond serving its purpose as moral boundary...it's sort of nonsensical. But such a math based construct makes the soul dichotomy work in conjunction with Joss's new theory of Spikean evolution.
Now, don't get me quoting Darwin. :)
And in other things that make my head hurt: Heidegger's "Poetry, Language, Thought"
Yet further in the debate elsewhere:
Never depend on Mutant Enemy to be logical. Never think that they value rational sense and development over a cheap thrill. Why did the trip to Africa look the way it did? Because ME can't break their addiction to audience manipulation in order to provide cheap "plot twists." They told their story, but told it cheaply and without clarity. That is hardly an isolated event. Have Fred castigate Angel for always "running" then make it look like he ran... then reveal it was an audience fake out. Have Buffy stabbed and dying with a mortal wound before the commercial break...then come back, tell the First to get out of her face, make a mile long dash for a bus and end the series smiling. Mortal wound = cheesy mislead. Ah, and then there's the dumbass "the Doctor" thing in AYW. There is no way to look at that and not see it's logistically ridiculous. Spike as "international black market dealer" despite the fact that he a) owns no phone b)hasn't left Sunnydale (or the US in years) c) was quite the pariah in demon society since Season 4 d) couldn't even manage to pay of a KITTEN DEBT a few episodes earlier. Oh for crying out loud, international demon dealer couldn't come up with a few dozen Siamese kittens? How utterly ridiculous is that? And yet, I'm supposed to swallow that crock of crap and accept it as canon. Well, fine. But by that same measure, it has been stated and restated that Spike was going for a soul ALL ALONG. If they can pass off cheap mortal wounds and insanely illogical demon dealers despite the rampant illogic, then pay no attention to the word "bitch." It's a cheap ploy (and ME is in no way above cheap ploys) to distract you so they can have their "plot twist." {tm}
Was it poor writing? You betcha! But then I haven't given ME credit for subtlety for a while now.
They said (even David "I hate Spike" Fury said) that Spike "went for a soul all along." Quibble about it. Call it piss poor execution in the episode (as I do the AR and the dumbass demon eggs) but swallow it whole because ME has placed their stamp of "this is the way it is" on that particular "plot twist" both in interviews and in subsequent Season 7 dialog on the show. It's a done deal. Spike haters... get over it.
Also, as part of an Angel v. Spike debate, it's immaterial. As a Spike fan it matters in the way I view Spike's journey. However in a "my vamp vesus your vamp" debate it's pointless because of the way the whole soul dichotomy has been set up. The soul is a boundary and the souled being is unaccountable for the unsouled beings action. It's the entire foundation of Angel. (And Angel NEVER sought a soul and that's not supposed to diminish him in any respect so in an Angel v. Spike debate why Spike went to get a soul isn't important. . .unless the Angel fan is willing to have Angel take a bit ol' kick in the ass for never having sought one, having killed in an effort to prevent being souled, and in having a soul forcibly foisted on him. . .three times.)
Anyway, that's all extraneous arguing.
Soul in Whedonverse is an absolute moral boundary (I think David Fury would be proud of that consession from the "Serial Killer Lover" he argued on the Bronze with 3 years ago)
I remember during college, my thesis professor made a group of us sit around and discuss the meaning of the word "boundary" for a good three hours (it reached the point where you begin to go "boundary"...when you think about it, it's a funny sounding word, isn't it?. He also did the amusing thing of making us read Heidegger... out loud ...for hours ( Ah. Fun to be had in thesis. ::eyeroll::)
I digress.
Anyway, the soul has been designated as the moral boundary in the Whedonverse. On a x-y axis it is the defining crucial point, it's zero. That is not to say there isn't a vast continuim. There's an infinite number of possibilities on the (-) side. There's an infinite number of possibilities on the (+) side, but those on the (+) side are fundamentally different than those on the (-) side. The thing that's different in Angel's souling and Spike's souling is (and considering how much of a math phobe I am, I can't believe I'm making this analogy) Spike was the "approaching the limit"..."approaching zero" ... "approaching infinity"
What do I mean by THAT?!!
It's that old halving axiom. If you take half the distance between one and zero, then half that distance, then half that distance, and again and again and again. You'll never reach zero (much less surpass it). You can make the distance approaching zero into infinitly small integerm but it doesn't cross the boundary of zero.
Spike was approaching zero.
He was doing halvsies, growing closer and closer to the zero boundary but still on the negative side of the soul axis. Soul = boundary.
So we have the souling. Poor Angel was ripped from -1,000,006 (an approximation :) and placed on the soulhaving (+) side of the axis. Spike had spent three years doing halvsies. Halving the distance between himself and the boundary. . . again, then again, then again. He approached the limit but while soulless there was no getting to the positive side.
The "I am nothing" speech in the crypt then makes a great deal of sense. He had approached zero but still was on the soulless side of the boundary... still he was a heck of a lot closer to zero than -1,000,006. . .which was playing havoc with his entire being because, hey, VAMPIRE!
So being at some fraction approaching zero and facing a boundary there's the choice of giving up, packing up your calculator and going home... or fundamental transformation because only by becoming something essentially different can one be on the OTHER side of the boundary.
A Whedonverse "souled being" is different in some essential way (as per canon that treats soul as boundary) but the "approaching zero" thing allows for evolution within the unsouled context. Souled remains fundamentally different from unsouled, but also recognizes that everything on the (-) side of the axis is not exactly the same, there are varying amplitudes. It is possible to make progress toward 0 even if one is still on the (-) side of the axis.
That was Spike.
But, it still required fundamental, metaphysical transformation to make it to the other side of the boundary.
Angel went to the other side of the boundary because metaphysical change was forced upon him, taking him from the negative contingent to the positive in one fell swoop.
Spike went to the other side of the boundary after approaching zero and recognizing the boundary (soulless, he did not cross it. He only came in approaching contact with it such that the limitations of the boundary could be perceived) leading to the choice of fundamental, metaphysical transformation (souling) that then places him on the other side of the boundary.
Now, does it make sense?
No.
Soul canon makes no sense primarily because it wasn't created as a metaphor for squat. It wasn't created as a philosophical debate (though it has been turned into one.) It was created as part of ME's ongoing pattern of exceptionalism. They needed it to be acceptable for Buffy to have a vampire Angel as a love interest. How to do that? Make him unique. That simple. That's the basis of soul canon. The writer who actually came up with it, admitted it was done on the fly. That said, I don't dismiss it's importance as a moral boundary within the show because, God knows, they've hammered that concept into the ground. It's just that above and beyond serving its purpose as moral boundary...it's sort of nonsensical. But such a math based construct makes the soul dichotomy work in conjunction with Joss's new theory of Spikean evolution.
Now, don't get me quoting Darwin. :)
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no subject
Date: 2003-08-06 09:52 pm (UTC)Ultimately, it has to have some meaning/worth. Given writer statements, many debates, and what went down I at last came to the conclusion that without a soul there was no way that Spike could actually develop a real moral compass... at least not on a gut level. It was all intellectualized.
Praise Barb and "Necessary Evils" ... I think she did a better job of expressing this contradiction than the show ever did.
Spike loved. Spike had very real emotions. Because he had those emotions, I do absolutely buy that he COULD feel remorse and did. However his remorse was for hurting what he loved not some abstract "it was wrong." He was amoral (which is slightly different than immoral).
So Spike could approach and approximate souling. Say he was -.0000001 to soul. Still it's not quite the same thing as actually having the soul.
I sort of go back to the hole souling = frontal lobe dysfunction due to injury. Someone with such an injury may intellectually understand morality but they just don't process it in the same way as normal people do. Unsouled, Spike was handicapped. All he could do was try to compensate for what was missing, and he did a darn good job of it most of the time becaus the boy has a truly amazing heart. . . but it's not the same thing. Not exactly. It was an approximation of soul rather than a soul itself. And it was almost good enough...and if Buffy hadn't taken to pushing every single button in creation maybe it never would have come into such a crisis. On the other hand I suppose the danger of that crisis arising would always be there and in Marti's own fucked up way, they were trying to address that (although, I tend to think they were more about Marti exorcizing her own demons through characters she shouldn't have been allowed to destroy). but to reconcile myself to the story, I have to accept the soul as having some unique merit. Otherwise I just want to smack ME with a herring. :D
no subject
Date: 2003-08-06 10:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-07 08:17 am (UTC)Where I think that (within the context of the whedonverse because in real life I think this whole soul canon makes not one DAMN bit of sense) the show is saying Spike doesn't have that ability to subconsciously have a "squick" factor about bad things. Consciously he could conclude "If I do X then Y happens..." But it wasn't something that naturally ocurred on a subconscious level. . .or if it did (which I think it did in Seeing Red) then it was a highly anamolous event the kind of which could force an emotional crisis that would send someone to make a fundamental metaphysical transformation.