shipperx | In Need of Intellectual Discussion

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In Need of Intellectual Discussion

For fanfic purposes, I'm trying to puzzle out a post-apocalyptic BtVS/AtS world.

A few hypothetical discussion questions:

* What would the world look like in 20 years if The First got what it wanted? The First wanted to take over, to make the world... what, exactly? What did The First actually want? Control? Anarchy? Worshippers?  Everyone as its puppets with the sublimation of free will, Sleeper-like zombies, Andrew-like betrayers?  What?  We assume the world would be full of evil and populated with a Hellmouth quotient of Cro-Mag vampires. But what does The First get out of it? With all of its yak-yak-yak, what kind of world would The First be intent on creating 20 years down the road?   The First would probably be more defined by magic/supernatural, I guess. What would the world in the The First's image be?

* Another question. What would the world look like 20 years after Not Fade Away if Wolfram and Hart and the Circle got what they wanted? A world controlled by corrupt lawyers, what would that be? A different sort of apocalypse from most, I would guess. They are corporate evil and a Demon Mafia.   What would that world look like? What would that apocalypse boil down to? I tend to assume that the bad guys really don't want the destruction of the world so much as to take the world over and exploit its resources to... uh... what? (I'd fail at evil overlord school). But what would the world look like in 20 years if Wolfram & Hart had won?

* If both The First and W&H/Circle are at work, would they share similar goals or would the two be at odds with one another (bullies can have personality conflicts with one another, after all). Could these folks work together? Is it a fragile truce, dividing the world into their own provinces, or two enemies united by a common goal? If The First and W&H were at war, what would that mean? Is it chaotic evil vs. ordered evil? If they were in concert, would that mean something else?

* In a First vs. W&H Battle Royale, who would win? Or would they never go against each other? Could they be provoked into going against each other because they have fundamentally different goals, or is it simply We're Evil. Evil Rawks. So... yay?

* What's left of humanity in all of this? What about lower innocuous demon orders such as Lorne and Clem? Vampires (not the ones with souls)?

I guess I'm trying to do a Sims game exercise, mentally building a world, or actually theorize about several, try them on for size and see which is most intriguing. It feels that a post-apocalyptic world should be based on the desires of the villain in question (although it could be augmented by human self-destruction -- global warming, religious wars, etc).

So what would the world be if The First could construct it in its desired image? What about a W&H based world? Any thoughts? Ideas? Theories? ...Wild speculation?

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A world controlled by corrupt lawyers, what would that be?

Uh, you're soaking in it. :)

Heh. True. But extrapolate to the tenth power. :)

In the case of the First winning, I see it's first action as being a corruption of all those Slayers it manipulated Buffy into empowering.

The First doesn't really care about physical victories, all it's after is corruption of the good. It doesn't mind killing people, but killing is optional as far as it's concerned. It much prefers to take good souls and pervert them, corrupt them. Turning of the light inside humanity and make them darker.

A world ruled by the First would be filled with selfishness and greed and anger, with people just thinking about themselves.

Wolfram and Hart weren't really after changing the world, they'd already started the process years ago, darkening the world, making deals with demon for more personal power for themselves, with the rest of humanity still living their life as unknowing sheep, unaware that they're all just being made ready to be shorn or butchered.

Hadn't really thought of the perversion aspect, but I think there is that. Caleb, after all, was a minister/preacher of sorts. Hmm... twisting humanity could be something to work with...

It's not just Caleb, though he's part of it. It's the whole of s7. Just compare it to s4 of Angel. The entire season we get told that this big apocalypse is coming, yet there's few or no actual threats.

Sure you get the occasional demon, the hellmouth working up a bit, the First releasing some of it's Supervamps. But the majority of them aren't released, until Buffy gives them an opening to get out.

To me the only way to have The First's plan make sense in s7, is that it killed a few potentials and most of their watchers, their guidance, just so that those potentials that survived would go running straight towards Buffy. Just notice how many potentials were still alive at the start of Chosen.

To me it's clear that the First caused just enough trouble to let Buffy believe that the big Apocalypse was coming. Hell it practically led Buffy towards the Scythe, it almost pointed the thing out to her.
And once Buffy had the scythe in her hands, it told Caleb to let her go. In fact, they only put up a token resistance to keep her from getting it.

It also has several chances to kill Buffy, and yet doesn't, why? Because it still needs her to activate all the slayers and open the Hellmouth.

Another proof is what it does to Spike and Angel. It could easily have them killed, but that's not the intention. Spike is Buffy's greatest victory against The First and she doesn't even get it. Because a being from the darkness chose the light, no matter what it's reason was. So it wants to corrupt that being, that vampire.

It doesn't want to kill Spike, it'll do that, if it has to, but killing Spike is never the intention, the intention is to corrupt him, to get him to come back to the dark side as it were.

The First also appeared to Buffy in Chosen, why? to plant the idea of activating all the Slayers. Just look at the words it uses to remind Buffy that she's alone.

In fact, I'm pretty sure the First wouldn't have succeeded in completely opening the seal and letting out its army, if Buffy and her girls hadn't opened the door. And once the Slayers were all activated the First no longer cared about keeping them alive, cause well... there were dozens, hundreds, possibly even thousands more out there to take the place of the girls that got to Sunnydale.

Once the First had that, Sunnydale no longer mattered. The First never cared about winning after all, it just wants to play the game, the never ending game.

Just wanted to say that I think this will really help me. I'm tending toward The First being my behind the scenes villain, and it was so muddled in Season 7 that it's sometimes difficult to figure it out. I really like the corruption part, and the whole concept of getting what it wanted, dovetails with the plot bunny I've had that I had wanted to use -- namely, that I too had thought that it was a distinct possibility that The First did get what it wanted in Chosen. That it actually wanted a all the Slayers activated at once.

With the caveat that I don't think Mutant enemy knew in the slightest what either actually wanted, I'd put the First down with sensation and W&H as control.

A world of munchables being munched and fucked with no limits doesn't mesh well with a world controlled by Halliburton on meth. They'd clash. W&H would be most annoyed at not getting their full pound of flesh because people are running from a heap of vampire throwbacks and they'd get the military forces to actually use bunker busters, napalm and cluster bombs and beat the First without breaking a sweat.

The First being incoporeal would probably make it difficult to actually beat, though I do think you have a point about a divide.

It seems that W&H would appeal to greed, to oppress, to makes as much money off of others as possible, to debauch where they could. Rich and powerful, and more powerful still if they beat back the chaos to have their area of the world be clean, shiny, and ready for corporate sheep.

... in which case it seems that The First could come to appeal to the disaffected & oppressed, having acolytes ala the dumbass who brought back Illyria...

One of the only biys of motivation they gave the First was that whole wanting to feel and that tipping the blance would let it do that, so I'm assuming that winning would mean Corporeal First.

But I could be wrong, as I'm going on seriously shite writing in the series in question.

Well, yeah, I have to agree that I don't think Joss had a plan for the First plan. The first was amorphous in every way, which was why it was such an ineffective villain. The best villains have a passion for something, a desire for something, and in the best of all worlds, they think that they are just in their crusade.

But, for the sake of world building for the context of a story, I'm trying to think of what a First inspired world might be.

I've always thought that W&H was more symbolic of human evil, despite the fact that they used supernatural means. Their goal was to corrupt and suppress what was good about humanity in general and in individuals in particular. It would use a person's strengths against them to enslave or destroy them. And given all the stuff Lindsey said about the Black thorn, i think a W&H apocalypse wouldn't be any big battle. It would just be the world going on as it is. W&H would try to steer it along the worst-case scenario path where possible, and increase the sum total of human greed and misery, and decrease the sum total of hope and charity. Which is why, in the long run, the Annes of the world have a better chance of holding them off than the Angels do, because Anne, too, is about the long haul.

If the First Evil had been done in a subtle way, if it really had used every person's deepest fears against them, then I think it could have worked with W&H. For awhile, anyway. The question would be what the First would want to do once it had won. And that, I honestly don't know. I suppose that the Turok Han army suggests it was after some rather conventional hell on earth scenario, with humanity enslaved or eaten or something. But honestly, it's impossible to tell what the First wanted, which is one reason it lacks something as a villain. Its goals were too vague.

I could actually see a scenario in which W&H allied with the good guys to fight the First, because W&H would consider the First's apocalypse too destructive.

I'm kind of intrigued by Liliaeth's point about The First and perversion/corruption. I suppose that W&H could be accused of the same thing, but I always had the feeling that W&H believed that humanity was wicked on its own. All they had to do was allow for opportunities. The First, on the other hand seemed to find whatever pleasure and incorporeal entity can find in forcing people to do things that weren't in line with their wants or their best interests. It convinced Andrew to kill his only friend. It forced a souled vampire to kill against his will. It talked young girls into suicide, etc. It seemed primarily about destruction -- of person, sanity, or will. It is destructive to inspire creatures to their own self-destruction, which could lead to The First ending up at odds with W&H.

For some reason the ideas bubbling in my head cause me to think of Farscape. I could see W&H as a form of ordered evil not entirely different from The Peacekeepers or Star Wars Empire, in as much as their true pursuit was their own power, exploiting whatever they came across in order to increase that powerbase, and having a certain appeal to certain factions of the masses in that they offer order, profit, and a -- albeit repressive -- safety as opposed to anarchy and fear.

I think the Farscape feel for me is coming from the concept of Crichton/Aeryn/Moya Crew standing between two opposing, evil forces -- The Peacekeepers and the Scarrans. Not that W&H and The First are Peacekeepers and Scarrans, but just that set up of our heroes as outlaws of a kind stuck in an impossible position between a rock and hard place, two equally unacceptable options.

And I'm too tired now to make much sense of my ideas. Hope this post makes some sense.

I could see W&H as a form of ordered evil not entirely different from The Peacekeepers or Star Wars Empire, in as much as their true pursuit was their own power, exploiting whatever they came across in order to increase that powerbase

That's a darn good point; W&H are very organized corporate evil, they want their "i"s dotted and their "t"s crossed and everything filed in triplicate. It's an organization built to feed on and exploit existing human weaknesses, and as such it largely autopilots itself, absorbing whatever it can, eventually including Angel and his team. In that way, it does have quite a bit in common with The First - as

liliaeth said, what we actually see onscreen suggests that it was manipulating Buffy into doing its work for it, to taint and corrupt the greatest number of people. The only place The First seems to veer off that path is when it reveals an eleventh-hour motive of wanting to "feel" - wanting to make the transition from being the puppet master in the shadows, ala Wolfram & Hart, to something that could experience every bloody act directly. So maybe that's the key - to emphasize that difference, between the detachment of W&H (Peacekeeper-like) and the visceral, emotional (Scarran-like), internal threat of The First, where W&H want to let humans turn their own world into hell on earth that they would then look on and file reports over, and The First as wanting to execute a full-scale Exorcist-style possession of all of humanity... getting in moreon the ground floor, so to speak.

Think Dawn's 'Key' ness could come into play (Dawn participation is part of the fic request). The First using her in some way somewhat parallel to the Scarrans wanting wormholes to go to earth to harvest birds of Paradise. This could be what brings Buffy/Spike to a common goal 20 years into the future (actually time-wise I'm thinking more along the lines of 15-17 years post "Chosen"). The fic challenge listed Dawn as an element, and I'm needing a way to work her in. Making her a weapon of mass destruction could be useful.

Hm, yes, definitely. I do like the idea that Buffy's decision to sacrifice herself for Dawn as the real reason that the Slayer line was somehow upset. Buffy's resurrection never really made sense for that, in terms of summoning The First's attention, but perhaps Dawn, as a latent "gate" to other dimensions, other possibilities... that thought has some legs to it. Maybe Dawn - not so much by anything she does, but just by existing in the universe as a corporeal being - could be throwing off some kind of major celestial equilibrium. And The First does try to isolate Dawn from Buffy, which works well if you view The First's actions during S7 as trying to provoke some specific effect (opening the Hellmouth, etc.) that it wants Dawn to be apart from. Perhaps Dawn was being held in reserve, for later use in some larger plan.

I'm really liking the idea of Dawn's keyness playing a big role in this. I was having a difficult time working her into my concept, and she's actually a requested element. Having her be essential to the plot is a really big plus for me. And I had forgotten about The First trying to isolate Dawn from Buffy. Good point. (Sheesh, there were so many dropped plot lines from Season 7.

Recently, when reading Stephen King's "On Writing" he wrote about plotting as 'unearthing an artifact', saying that it feels like the story is there and the writer's job is to recognize that there's something hidden and to carefully excavate it.

Sometimes it feels like Joss left a lot of artifacts scattered around.

Sometimes it feels like Joss left a lot of artifacts scattered around.

He'd probably reckon that was a good thing...

Ooh. Do you think Dawn could be 'worm hole technolgy'? (Going with the Farscape metaphor here.

Hmm...

My instinct with the First was always that it wanted a world where evil was present to such an extent that it could manifest itself, but I say 'instinct' because I have absolutely nothing to back it up. It's plan seemed to be to wipe out the Slayer line, which I suppose would reduce the level of good, and then releasing the Turok Han, presumably to create a world of pain and terror where evil naturally grows out of the circumstances. Of course, in such a situation I'd like to have enough faith in humanity to assume a sort of blitz spirit would kick in and evil wouldn't prevail in humans, but I'm not sure the First thinks that much. Maybe it simply wants to destroy humans, so that all that remains are the evil demons, which would still achieve its ends... Then, presumably, it would proceed to other dimensions - if the universe is infinite, then it's working for infinite gain, destroying until it can manifest itself in as many dimensions as possible until the end of time. I mean, if you take the First to be a sort of religiously-neutral version of Satan you get down to Milton's 'only in destroying do I find ease to my relentless thoughts' idea, where it's out to destroy simply for the purpose of destruction. But for some reason I still have the desire to manifest in my head, and I don't know where from.

W&H seemed to want to have an interest in everything, with their goal presumably being to make the most profit for them and to make their lives as easy as possible. I think that the apocalypse that they're always talking about is not the one that Angel induces - despite the number of times 'apocalypse' is used in the show, I think it has a different meaning, somehow, when they use it. If I wanted to wildly speculate, I'd go down some tangent where at the end of its time each world/universe spontaneously turns into either a heavenly or hellish dimension for other souls to be carted into from the middle worlds, and the actual apocalypse isn't something that can be averted, but instead something where either the hell-gods have a new dominion or the good-gods get it (we don't really hear very much about them, but I'm assuming they exist). W&H, therefore, would still be grooming the world for that event, but since the Senior Partners' plans aren't as personal as the First's, if they were left to their own devices they would go about it a lot more subtly, trying to subvert humanity itself as opposed to squishing it. I think W&H would be clever enough to work out that if they tried to actively oppress humanity then it wouldn't work, but if they let them drag themselves into a pit of sin instead it would be much more effective.

[More bollocks to follow...]

...

I can't decide whether I think W&H wouldn't go for the First's plans. I think they could make it work for their advantage, since they're just as happy to deal with demons as with humans. Though I think they'd be less into the mindless killing machines of the Turok Han. Maybe they'd quite like their world to still be ordered when it turned into hell. They might like the amenities - their offices are always so plush, after all. I suppose if you were going to be an overlord of a dimension it would be nice if it could actually function... and humans are particularly resourceful, so if they survived and were ultimately turned over to hell then they could possibly invent things to make the Senior Partners' existences more enjoyable.

I could see there being a war between them, but I'm not sure it would come about in twenty years. They'd step in when the First went too far, but until then I don't think they'd care. (Ultimately, in the pecking order of evil, I think the Senior Partners fall above the First.) I think the army of demons at the end of NFA was more to get rid of Angel than anything, since it seemed to be contained to LA. I think they'd probably try to cut a deal with the First the moment it started replacing humans en masse with the Turok Han etc. The First wouldn't agree, so then they'd try to destroy the First.

OK, so following my chain, that wouldn't happen on Earth, which is a problem. Perhaps if the First didn't need so much evil to manifest, then it could already have done so, in which case W&H would be out to destroy it in manifested form, where you'd end up with two great armies and humans stuck in the middle, along with anyone who didn't take a side. W&H would try to recruit anyone they could, willing to enter into a temporary 'truce' with the good guys to take out the First (though, obviously, trying to corrupt them along the way), whereas the First would be almost physically unable to do so. Ultimately W&H would win because, in the end, they're a greater force than the First.

That has got to be the biggest load of tl;dr shite that I've ever written... oh well.

I did read! And I want to digest and discuss it... and it's midnight here and I can't see straight so it will have to wait until tomorrow. :)

Hee! Well, when you replied I was sound asleep anyway, so I don't mind. :)

I agree that my feeling about NFA was that the demon army was primarily there to take down Angel. He had done damage, and they intended to retalliate... but he really didn't change their plans or cause them to rush their plans. Their plans remained intact.

Story-wise, I think for practical purposes, I'm going to need W&H to be against The First manifesting in physical terms. They're willing to humor it with its need to torment and corrupt. They have nothing against that, but let it get too much power, and its damage could actually hurt business, and they really don't want that. For one thing, they do want to be the Big Bad on the block and the first has 'worshippers' and crap like that... and they really could do without superstitious claptrap or a 'destroying the world' thing (because to quote someone somewhere -- the world is where they keep their stuff!)

I'm going to need W&H to be against The First manifesting in physical terms

That would be especially true considering

elisi's point that the First is supposed be eternal, with W&H as the young upstarts. (I think I was distracted with the First always looking like Buffy.) If they'd been working with the world for so long, they wouldn't want the First rushing in and ruining everything.

Although they do have other worlds as well - they had a presence, at least, in Pylea. Would that affect things?

I should totally have read your comments before replying to this post. Sorry about the repetition.

My instinct with the First was always that it wanted a world where evil was present to such an extent that it could manifest itself, but I say 'instinct' because I have absolutely nothing to back it up.

Would this help?

First!Caleb: I will overrun this Earth. And when my army outnumbers the humans on this Earth, the scales will tip and I will be made flesh.
Chosen

And about humanity's fate, then there's this from 'End of Days':

First!Buffy: Look, when this is all over, and our armies spring forth, and our will sweeps the world, I will be able to enter every man, woman, and child on this Earth, just as I enter you.

So if The First managed to tip the scales, it would be able to *control* humankind. Of course W&H are interdimensional, and might be able to bring in armies from different places - but humans would certainly be nothing more more than canon fodder.

Oh and re.this:

Ultimately, in the pecking order of evil, I think the Senior Partners fall above the First.

I don't think so. Well W&H might have more immediate *power* and sway:

Lindsey: You're talking about fighting flesh and something that passes for blood demons with enormous power, and they will mow you down.
NFA

But - The First is eternal:

BELJOXA'S EYE: It cannot be fought, it cannot be killed. The First Evil has been and always will be. Since before the universe was born, long after there is nothing else, it will go on.

Whereas W&H...

ILLYRIA: The wolf, ram, and hart? In my time they were weak, barely above the vampire.
KNOX: Huh. I guess they beefed up.

That still doesn't mean that W&H wouldn't kick The First's ass in a straigthforward fight.

This is all v. fascinating, although personally I always wondered what would have happened if *Jasmine* hadn't been stopped and there had been a battle between her and The First. And which side would W&H have come down on?

Ooh! The End of Days quote is a great deal of help.

Thanks for the quotes.

And I rather liked the Jasmine plot. It might be one villain too many for me to handle, but I thought she was a fascinating villain.

And I think W&H has an advantage over The First in that they don't seem to be far more pragmatic. They're far more likely to just haul out their demon army while The First is still yammering about its plans. :)

Would this help?

Yay, thanks - it's good to know I'm not going completely crazy!

And that is very true about Beljoxa's Eye. Though, at the same time, the Eye did admit it doesn't know about the future, so it's possible that could change.

I always wondered what would have happened if *Jasmine* hadn't been stopped

That would be really interesting. Of course, Jasmine always annoyed me so I don't know if I'd read a fic about it, but as a concept... Jasmine's people weren't above acting with hate and malice if they thought someone was a threat to her, so I could see the First doing quite well in a fight between them - it would just pit her minions against each other.

I'm too sleepy to be of much intellectual use, but I think you should figure out a way to bring Wesley back somehow. ;-)

Hee. I'm never against Wesley, though I have to admit that I haven't progressed so far as developing a plot so I don't yet know what characters will be needed.

Um...

http://www.geocities.com/lapassiondusanguinaire/Plans.html

That was beyond lovely, ms moscow.

I'm glad you like it. I read it about four years ago and couldn't forget ever since. It explains everything and does it so funnily and irreverently that you can't but accept the idea.

Lovely story. Thanks for the link.

Happy to oblige!

Hmm...Spike looking like Mad Max with a beard and a pony tail. ohh the pretty.

Interesting post. Don't have time to go into any details, but what The First wanted was to become corporeal. That was it's plan:

First!Buffy: I know why they grab at each other. To feel. I want to feel. I want to wrap my hands around some innocent neck and feel it crack.
Touched

First!Caleb: I will overrun this Earth. And when my army outnumbers the humans on this Earth, the scales will tip and I will be made flesh.
Chosen

So in a way it was very much like Jasmine - except Jasmine wanted to make people *happy* slaves. ::thinks:: Actually that is a pretty neat comparison, since The First would be able to pull of that same sort of mind-meld trick:

First!Buffy: Look, when this is all over, and our armies spring forth, and our will sweeps the world, I will be able to enter every man, woman, and child on this Earth, just as I enter you.
'End of Days'

Does that help?

Thanks so much for the quotes. It's amazing how much I've forgotten with time. And The First was always so difficult to pin down. The refresher course in First!quotes helps a great deal. Thank you!

Regarding The First wanting to become corporeal: remember that 'Amends' established that It was only able to materialise in Sunnydale because a group of Bringers were hiding under the Christmas tree lot chanting. Once Buffy disposed of them, The First showed up one last time, made its Evil speech and then left town, leaving her to pick up the pieces.

In season 7, Sunnydale was overrun by Bringers. Caleb was travelling the world organising them, and the Seal over the Hellmouth was converting more humans into Bringers. All those worshippers gave The First the ability to materialise pretty much at will during that season. (However, I speculate that The First was running a risk by expending so much of Its power in this way: Buffy's resurrection gave It a window of opportunity to affect the world decisively. After all, if It could have created so many Bringers any time it wanted, why wouldn't it? There must have been a downside preventing It doing so years earlier, until the potential (heh) benefits outweighed the risk.)

Unleashing an army of vampires would create even more potential worshippers, giving The First the power to materialise whenever it wanted, as others have said. However, I'll add that the Turok-han probably aren't the true threat. The real danger is that humanity will react to the appearance of the monsters with panic, fear and hatred. They'll take ruthless measures against them, and then against the 'innocent' demons, and against anybody who associates with demons, or uses magic, or has a kitchen full of herbs, or looks different. It's the release of all this negative emotional energy - not a rampage by a bunch of Neanderthal vampires - that will mark The First's true victory. (And this also explains how Buffy finally defeated It - not with an army or a magic amulet, but by refusing to give up hope even at the blackest moment. The moral is to the physical as three is to one, as Napoléon said).

Regarding The First's character, with its playful cruelty and arbitrary whims I actually see it as something like a cat. With us in the role of mice, naturally.

It's amazing to me that I had mostly forgotten about The Bringers. I remembered the Turok Han and Caleb, but The Bringers hadn't loomed large in my memory. I could definitely use them.

And I like the idea that the danger wasn't the monsters themselves but the panic they would cause which would allow The First to work its will.

And now I have a mental image of The First with a poor little green garden lizard in its mouth (because that's my cat's favorite prey. :)

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In Need of Intellectual Discussion

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