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In Need of Intellectual Discussion
For fanfic purposes, I'm trying to puzzle out a post-apocalyptic BtVS/AtS world.
A few hypothetical discussion questions:
* What would the world look like in 20 years if The First got what it wanted? The First wanted to take over, to make the world... what, exactly? What did The First actually want? Control? Anarchy? Worshippers? Everyone as its puppets with the sublimation of free will, Sleeper-like zombies, Andrew-like betrayers? What? We assume the world would be full of evil and populated with a Hellmouth quotient of Cro-Mag vampires. But what does The First get out of it? With all of its yak-yak-yak, what kind of world would The First be intent on creating 20 years down the road? The First would probably be more defined by magic/supernatural, I guess. What would the world in the The First's image be?
* Another question. What would the world look like 20 years after Not Fade Away if Wolfram and Hart and the Circle got what they wanted? A world controlled by corrupt lawyers, what would that be? A different sort of apocalypse from most, I would guess. They are corporate evil and a Demon Mafia. What would that world look like? What would that apocalypse boil down to? I tend to assume that the bad guys really don't want the destruction of the world so much as to take the world over and exploit its resources to... uh... what? (I'd fail at evil overlord school). But what would the world look like in 20 years if Wolfram & Hart had won?
* If both The First and W&H/Circle are at work, would they share similar goals or would the two be at odds with one another (bullies can have personality conflicts with one another, after all). Could these folks work together? Is it a fragile truce, dividing the world into their own provinces, or two enemies united by a common goal? If The First and W&H were at war, what would that mean? Is it chaotic evil vs. ordered evil? If they were in concert, would that mean something else?
* In a First vs. W&H Battle Royale, who would win? Or would they never go against each other? Could they be provoked into going against each other because they have fundamentally different goals, or is it simply We're Evil. Evil Rawks. So... yay?
* What's left of humanity in all of this? What about lower innocuous demon orders such as Lorne and Clem? Vampires (not the ones with souls)?
I guess I'm trying to do a Sims game exercise, mentally building a world, or actually theorize about several, try them on for size and see which is most intriguing. It feels that a post-apocalyptic world should be based on the desires of the villain in question (although it could be augmented by human self-destruction -- global warming, religious wars, etc).
So what would the world be if The First could construct it in its desired image? What about a W&H based world? Any thoughts? Ideas? Theories? ...Wild speculation?
Help
A few hypothetical discussion questions:
* What would the world look like in 20 years if The First got what it wanted? The First wanted to take over, to make the world... what, exactly? What did The First actually want? Control? Anarchy? Worshippers? Everyone as its puppets with the sublimation of free will, Sleeper-like zombies, Andrew-like betrayers? What? We assume the world would be full of evil and populated with a Hellmouth quotient of Cro-Mag vampires. But what does The First get out of it? With all of its yak-yak-yak, what kind of world would The First be intent on creating 20 years down the road? The First would probably be more defined by magic/supernatural, I guess. What would the world in the The First's image be?
* Another question. What would the world look like 20 years after Not Fade Away if Wolfram and Hart and the Circle got what they wanted? A world controlled by corrupt lawyers, what would that be? A different sort of apocalypse from most, I would guess. They are corporate evil and a Demon Mafia. What would that world look like? What would that apocalypse boil down to? I tend to assume that the bad guys really don't want the destruction of the world so much as to take the world over and exploit its resources to... uh... what? (I'd fail at evil overlord school). But what would the world look like in 20 years if Wolfram & Hart had won?
* If both The First and W&H/Circle are at work, would they share similar goals or would the two be at odds with one another (bullies can have personality conflicts with one another, after all). Could these folks work together? Is it a fragile truce, dividing the world into their own provinces, or two enemies united by a common goal? If The First and W&H were at war, what would that mean? Is it chaotic evil vs. ordered evil? If they were in concert, would that mean something else?
* In a First vs. W&H Battle Royale, who would win? Or would they never go against each other? Could they be provoked into going against each other because they have fundamentally different goals, or is it simply We're Evil. Evil Rawks. So... yay?
* What's left of humanity in all of this? What about lower innocuous demon orders such as Lorne and Clem? Vampires (not the ones with souls)?
I guess I'm trying to do a Sims game exercise, mentally building a world, or actually theorize about several, try them on for size and see which is most intriguing. It feels that a post-apocalyptic world should be based on the desires of the villain in question (although it could be augmented by human self-destruction -- global warming, religious wars, etc).
So what would the world be if The First could construct it in its desired image? What about a W&H based world? Any thoughts? Ideas? Theories? ...Wild speculation?
Help
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My instinct with the First was always that it wanted a world where evil was present to such an extent that it could manifest itself, but I say 'instinct' because I have absolutely nothing to back it up. It's plan seemed to be to wipe out the Slayer line, which I suppose would reduce the level of good, and then releasing the Turok Han, presumably to create a world of pain and terror where evil naturally grows out of the circumstances. Of course, in such a situation I'd like to have enough faith in humanity to assume a sort of blitz spirit would kick in and evil wouldn't prevail in humans, but I'm not sure the First thinks that much. Maybe it simply wants to destroy humans, so that all that remains are the evil demons, which would still achieve its ends... Then, presumably, it would proceed to other dimensions - if the universe is infinite, then it's working for infinite gain, destroying until it can manifest itself in as many dimensions as possible until the end of time. I mean, if you take the First to be a sort of religiously-neutral version of Satan you get down to Milton's 'only in destroying do I find ease to my relentless thoughts' idea, where it's out to destroy simply for the purpose of destruction. But for some reason I still have the desire to manifest in my head, and I don't know where from.
W&H seemed to want to have an interest in everything, with their goal presumably being to make the most profit for them and to make their lives as easy as possible. I think that the apocalypse that they're always talking about is not the one that Angel induces - despite the number of times 'apocalypse' is used in the show, I think it has a different meaning, somehow, when they use it. If I wanted to wildly speculate, I'd go down some tangent where at the end of its time each world/universe spontaneously turns into either a heavenly or hellish dimension for other souls to be carted into from the middle worlds, and the actual apocalypse isn't something that can be averted, but instead something where either the hell-gods have a new dominion or the good-gods get it (we don't really hear very much about them, but I'm assuming they exist). W&H, therefore, would still be grooming the world for that event, but since the Senior Partners' plans aren't as personal as the First's, if they were left to their own devices they would go about it a lot more subtly, trying to subvert humanity itself as opposed to squishing it. I think W&H would be clever enough to work out that if they tried to actively oppress humanity then it wouldn't work, but if they let them drag themselves into a pit of sin instead it would be much more effective.
[More bollocks to follow...]
no subject
I can't decide whether I think W&H wouldn't go for the First's plans. I think they could make it work for their advantage, since they're just as happy to deal with demons as with humans. Though I think they'd be less into the mindless killing machines of the Turok Han. Maybe they'd quite like their world to still be ordered when it turned into hell. They might like the amenities - their offices are always so plush, after all. I suppose if you were going to be an overlord of a dimension it would be nice if it could actually function... and humans are particularly resourceful, so if they survived and were ultimately turned over to hell then they could possibly invent things to make the Senior Partners' existences more enjoyable.
I could see there being a war between them, but I'm not sure it would come about in twenty years. They'd step in when the First went too far, but until then I don't think they'd care. (Ultimately, in the pecking order of evil, I think the Senior Partners fall above the First.) I think the army of demons at the end of NFA was more to get rid of Angel than anything, since it seemed to be contained to LA. I think they'd probably try to cut a deal with the First the moment it started replacing humans en masse with the Turok Han etc. The First wouldn't agree, so then they'd try to destroy the First.
OK, so following my chain, that wouldn't happen on Earth, which is a problem. Perhaps if the First didn't need so much evil to manifest, then it could already have done so, in which case W&H would be out to destroy it in manifested form, where you'd end up with two great armies and humans stuck in the middle, along with anyone who didn't take a side. W&H would try to recruit anyone they could, willing to enter into a temporary 'truce' with the good guys to take out the First (though, obviously, trying to corrupt them along the way), whereas the First would be almost physically unable to do so. Ultimately W&H would win because, in the end, they're a greater force than the First.
That has got to be the biggest load of tl;dr shite that I've ever written... oh well.
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Story-wise, I think for practical purposes, I'm going to need W&H to be against The First manifesting in physical terms. They're willing to humor it with its need to torment and corrupt. They have nothing against that, but let it get too much power, and its damage could actually hurt business, and they really don't want that. For one thing, they do want to be the Big Bad on the block and the first has 'worshippers' and crap like that... and they really could do without superstitious claptrap or a 'destroying the world' thing (because to quote someone somewhere -- the world is where they keep their stuff!)
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That would be especially true considering
Although they do have other worlds as well - they had a presence, at least, in Pylea. Would that affect things?
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My instinct with the First was always that it wanted a world where evil was present to such an extent that it could manifest itself, but I say 'instinct' because I have absolutely nothing to back it up.
Would this help?
First!Caleb: I will overrun this Earth. And when my army outnumbers the humans on this Earth, the scales will tip and I will be made flesh.
Chosen
And about humanity's fate, then there's this from 'End of Days':
First!Buffy: Look, when this is all over, and our armies spring forth, and our will sweeps the world, I will be able to enter every man, woman, and child on this Earth, just as I enter you.
So if The First managed to tip the scales, it would be able to *control* humankind. Of course W&H are interdimensional, and might be able to bring in armies from different places - but humans would certainly be nothing more more than canon fodder.
Oh and re.this:
Ultimately, in the pecking order of evil, I think the Senior Partners fall above the First.
I don't think so. Well W&H might have more immediate *power* and sway:
Lindsey: You're talking about fighting flesh and something that passes for blood demons with enormous power, and they will mow you down.
NFA
But - The First is eternal:
BELJOXA'S EYE: It cannot be fought, it cannot be killed. The First Evil has been and always will be. Since before the universe was born, long after there is nothing else, it will go on.
Whereas W&H...
ILLYRIA: The wolf, ram, and hart? In my time they were weak, barely above the vampire.
KNOX: Huh. I guess they beefed up.
That still doesn't mean that W&H wouldn't kick The First's ass in a straigthforward fight.
This is all v. fascinating, although personally I always wondered what would have happened if *Jasmine* hadn't been stopped and there had been a battle between her and The First. And which side would W&H have come down on?
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Thanks for the quotes.
And I rather liked the Jasmine plot. It might be one villain too many for me to handle, but I thought she was a fascinating villain.
And I think W&H has an advantage over The First in that they don't seem to be far more pragmatic. They're far more likely to just haul out their demon army while The First is still yammering about its plans. :)
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Yay, thanks - it's good to know I'm not going completely crazy!
And that is very true about Beljoxa's Eye. Though, at the same time, the Eye did admit it doesn't know about the future, so it's possible that could change.
I always wondered what would have happened if *Jasmine* hadn't been stopped
That would be really interesting. Of course, Jasmine always annoyed me so I don't know if I'd read a fic about it, but as a concept... Jasmine's people weren't above acting with hate and malice if they thought someone was a threat to her, so I could see the First doing quite well in a fight between them - it would just pit her minions against each other.