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In Need of Intellectual Discussion
For fanfic purposes, I'm trying to puzzle out a post-apocalyptic BtVS/AtS world.
A few hypothetical discussion questions:
* What would the world look like in 20 years if The First got what it wanted? The First wanted to take over, to make the world... what, exactly? What did The First actually want? Control? Anarchy? Worshippers? Everyone as its puppets with the sublimation of free will, Sleeper-like zombies, Andrew-like betrayers? What? We assume the world would be full of evil and populated with a Hellmouth quotient of Cro-Mag vampires. But what does The First get out of it? With all of its yak-yak-yak, what kind of world would The First be intent on creating 20 years down the road? The First would probably be more defined by magic/supernatural, I guess. What would the world in the The First's image be?
* Another question. What would the world look like 20 years after Not Fade Away if Wolfram and Hart and the Circle got what they wanted? A world controlled by corrupt lawyers, what would that be? A different sort of apocalypse from most, I would guess. They are corporate evil and a Demon Mafia. What would that world look like? What would that apocalypse boil down to? I tend to assume that the bad guys really don't want the destruction of the world so much as to take the world over and exploit its resources to... uh... what? (I'd fail at evil overlord school). But what would the world look like in 20 years if Wolfram & Hart had won?
* If both The First and W&H/Circle are at work, would they share similar goals or would the two be at odds with one another (bullies can have personality conflicts with one another, after all). Could these folks work together? Is it a fragile truce, dividing the world into their own provinces, or two enemies united by a common goal? If The First and W&H were at war, what would that mean? Is it chaotic evil vs. ordered evil? If they were in concert, would that mean something else?
* In a First vs. W&H Battle Royale, who would win? Or would they never go against each other? Could they be provoked into going against each other because they have fundamentally different goals, or is it simply We're Evil. Evil Rawks. So... yay?
* What's left of humanity in all of this? What about lower innocuous demon orders such as Lorne and Clem? Vampires (not the ones with souls)?
I guess I'm trying to do a Sims game exercise, mentally building a world, or actually theorize about several, try them on for size and see which is most intriguing. It feels that a post-apocalyptic world should be based on the desires of the villain in question (although it could be augmented by human self-destruction -- global warming, religious wars, etc).
So what would the world be if The First could construct it in its desired image? What about a W&H based world? Any thoughts? Ideas? Theories? ...Wild speculation?
Help
A few hypothetical discussion questions:
* What would the world look like in 20 years if The First got what it wanted? The First wanted to take over, to make the world... what, exactly? What did The First actually want? Control? Anarchy? Worshippers? Everyone as its puppets with the sublimation of free will, Sleeper-like zombies, Andrew-like betrayers? What? We assume the world would be full of evil and populated with a Hellmouth quotient of Cro-Mag vampires. But what does The First get out of it? With all of its yak-yak-yak, what kind of world would The First be intent on creating 20 years down the road? The First would probably be more defined by magic/supernatural, I guess. What would the world in the The First's image be?
* Another question. What would the world look like 20 years after Not Fade Away if Wolfram and Hart and the Circle got what they wanted? A world controlled by corrupt lawyers, what would that be? A different sort of apocalypse from most, I would guess. They are corporate evil and a Demon Mafia. What would that world look like? What would that apocalypse boil down to? I tend to assume that the bad guys really don't want the destruction of the world so much as to take the world over and exploit its resources to... uh... what? (I'd fail at evil overlord school). But what would the world look like in 20 years if Wolfram & Hart had won?
* If both The First and W&H/Circle are at work, would they share similar goals or would the two be at odds with one another (bullies can have personality conflicts with one another, after all). Could these folks work together? Is it a fragile truce, dividing the world into their own provinces, or two enemies united by a common goal? If The First and W&H were at war, what would that mean? Is it chaotic evil vs. ordered evil? If they were in concert, would that mean something else?
* In a First vs. W&H Battle Royale, who would win? Or would they never go against each other? Could they be provoked into going against each other because they have fundamentally different goals, or is it simply We're Evil. Evil Rawks. So... yay?
* What's left of humanity in all of this? What about lower innocuous demon orders such as Lorne and Clem? Vampires (not the ones with souls)?
I guess I'm trying to do a Sims game exercise, mentally building a world, or actually theorize about several, try them on for size and see which is most intriguing. It feels that a post-apocalyptic world should be based on the desires of the villain in question (although it could be augmented by human self-destruction -- global warming, religious wars, etc).
So what would the world be if The First could construct it in its desired image? What about a W&H based world? Any thoughts? Ideas? Theories? ...Wild speculation?
Help
no subject
My instinct with the First was always that it wanted a world where evil was present to such an extent that it could manifest itself, but I say 'instinct' because I have absolutely nothing to back it up.
Would this help?
First!Caleb: I will overrun this Earth. And when my army outnumbers the humans on this Earth, the scales will tip and I will be made flesh.
Chosen
And about humanity's fate, then there's this from 'End of Days':
First!Buffy: Look, when this is all over, and our armies spring forth, and our will sweeps the world, I will be able to enter every man, woman, and child on this Earth, just as I enter you.
So if The First managed to tip the scales, it would be able to *control* humankind. Of course W&H are interdimensional, and might be able to bring in armies from different places - but humans would certainly be nothing more more than canon fodder.
Oh and re.this:
Ultimately, in the pecking order of evil, I think the Senior Partners fall above the First.
I don't think so. Well W&H might have more immediate *power* and sway:
Lindsey: You're talking about fighting flesh and something that passes for blood demons with enormous power, and they will mow you down.
NFA
But - The First is eternal:
BELJOXA'S EYE: It cannot be fought, it cannot be killed. The First Evil has been and always will be. Since before the universe was born, long after there is nothing else, it will go on.
Whereas W&H...
ILLYRIA: The wolf, ram, and hart? In my time they were weak, barely above the vampire.
KNOX: Huh. I guess they beefed up.
That still doesn't mean that W&H wouldn't kick The First's ass in a straigthforward fight.
This is all v. fascinating, although personally I always wondered what would have happened if *Jasmine* hadn't been stopped and there had been a battle between her and The First. And which side would W&H have come down on?
no subject
Thanks for the quotes.
And I rather liked the Jasmine plot. It might be one villain too many for me to handle, but I thought she was a fascinating villain.
And I think W&H has an advantage over The First in that they don't seem to be far more pragmatic. They're far more likely to just haul out their demon army while The First is still yammering about its plans. :)
no subject
Yay, thanks - it's good to know I'm not going completely crazy!
And that is very true about Beljoxa's Eye. Though, at the same time, the Eye did admit it doesn't know about the future, so it's possible that could change.
I always wondered what would have happened if *Jasmine* hadn't been stopped
That would be really interesting. Of course, Jasmine always annoyed me so I don't know if I'd read a fic about it, but as a concept... Jasmine's people weren't above acting with hate and malice if they thought someone was a threat to her, so I could see the First doing quite well in a fight between them - it would just pit her minions against each other.