Rewatching Stuff

[shipperx]

For the first time in ages I rewatched "Touched", parts of "End of Days," and "Chosen" (basically to remind myself for fanfic purposes, because it has been ages since I watched them.)

What did I discover?

* The parts of these episodes that I deeply, earnestly disliked, I still deeply, earnestly dislike.
* I still don't know what in the fuck Buffy meant by telling Spike that he sent "mixed signals" (or messages, or whatever). Even if I squint very, very hard, I still don't see it. Look, Spike is not that difficult to read!
* By this point of Season 7, watching Spike breaks my heart. Pain resides in this ending for me because I don't care what other explanations I've seen or read or heard, it still plays for me as resigned acceptance of a lost dream, which still pisses me off and breaks my heart at the exact same time.
* I like to pretend that Angel is on drugs or very, very drunk because even though Joss seemed to forget that Cordy was mostly dead and that Connor was lost to Angel (for what Angel thought would be forever) I don't forget. Okay, so maybe Angel wasn't on drugs, but it's either drugs or believing that Angel is being utterly fake as he smiles and tosses off quips and petty jealousies, because the vampire I know was heart broken over Cordy and Connor because he loved them and tragic, horrific things had just happened to them. And EoD and Chosen had not the tiniest hint of that.
* Listening to Joss's commentary still makes me want to grab his shoulders and shake him.

So, um, what did I discover?

Nothing has changed.

(Not that I expected DVDs to change. It's just that it's a bit of a surprise to me that even after all this time, watching these episodes can dig up the old indignation and hurt.)

Comments

[spikendru.livejournal.com]

There is no way I can explain Angel's behavior story-wise. It just makes absolutely no sense. I've considered post-traumatic shock - you know, kind of like when Buffy went into that coma in S5, only instead of a coma, Angel regressed to adolescence - or possibly the mindwipe backfired and wiped Angel's mind of the last four years, but sadly, I fear, it was either a sop to the Bangels, or TPTB were afraid that a large portion of the BtVS audience wasn't watching Angel and thus would fail to recognize the Angel of S4 AtS. Rather than attempting to explain S4 (which would have been kind of impossible if one hadn't been watching) they decided to give the BtVS fans S2 boyfriend Angel and hoped the AtS fans wouldn't notice.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

But see, that wasn't even Season 2 or Season 3 Angel. It was some fantasy Angel or some drugged on Xanax Angel. Because, actual Angel wouldn't have had the same lightness had he been his pre-AtS incarnation, and the current with the episode Angel wouldn't have been so quick to quip with Cordy languishing brain dead and Connor fresh off of suicide.

Frankly, that, and listening to the commentaries where Joss repeatedly explains how people complained about shortcuts but how he thought the shortcuts were just fiiiine, is what makes me want to grab him to shake him.

[sp23.livejournal.com]

Of course shortcuts are fine as long as you no longer give a flying fuck about your old show that's finishing up its seventh year because you've become entranced with your shiny new flying penis show that didn't last eight episodes on tv.

Bitter? Who, me?

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Oh, geeze, tell me about it.

One 'comment' of his that annoyed the ever-living-hell out of me was where he's saying that the slayer-scythe was a good way to illustrate the connection between women.

Really?

To me it's a pointy axe. To me, showing 'connection between women' would involve...oh, I don't know, showing women actually connect! You know, actual communication! And on more than a menstrually metaphorical level, 'cause ew!

[sp23.livejournal.com]

Well, I liked how he used the old lady who was guardian of the Scythe and how there was a whole sisterhood involved and then she got all dead and stuff. At the hands of a man.

Nice use of female empowerment there, Joss.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Oh, but Willow empowering Potentials is totally female empowerment and totally different than what shadowmen did. See her hair went white instead of the patriarchical black from the season before (though, it beats the hell out of me, Joss, how DarthWillow was reacting to patriarchy rather than rage, vengeance and hubris of her own.)

But see, Slayer spell made it alllllll better.

[(Anonymous)]

This is the main reason I don't re-watch S7, even though I know that watching a season all together usually does away with at least some of the pacing problems imposed by network scheduling. Part of me is afraid that I won't see it any differently, and part of me is afraid I will.

[rahirah]

Oops, that was me.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I do that all the time (forget to sign in).

And, yeah, I know exactly what you mean. At this point, though, I doubt that my opinion can be substantially altered. Still, to experience it all again would remain painful.

[deborahc.livejournal.com]

* I still don't know what in the fuck Buffy meant by telling Spike that he sent "mixed signals" (or messages, or whatever).

That's one classic WTF line if there ever was one. The first time I heard it I was shaking my head in confusion and asking TV Buffy, 'You mean you're tired of giving off mixed signals?' It pissed me off then and it pisses me off now. Buffy, teh QaWeeeen of mixed signals is accusing Spike of signal mixing? Oh - and just after she says it, she does it again coughcough"Does it have to mean something?"cough.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

"Does it have to mean something."

I swear when she says it, you can almost hear the last thread of hope that Spike had about them break... without her ever once dealing with any of it honestly.

[(Anonymous)]

"Does it have to mean something."

I swear when she says it, you can almost hear the last thread of hope that Spike had about them break... without her ever once dealing with any of it honestly.

Yes. And that it was preceded by Buffy berating Spike for not being honest and cleaar about his feelings added insult to injury.

[txvoodoo.livejournal.com]

"* I like to pretend that Angel is on drugs or very, very drunk because even though Joss seemed to forget that Cordy was mostly dead and that Connor was lost to Angel (for what Angel thought would be forever) I don't forget. Okay, so maybe Angel wasn't on drugs, but it's either drugs or believing that Angel is being utterly fake as he smiles and tosses off quips and petty jealousies, because the vampire I know was heart broken over Cordy and Connor, and EoD and Chosen had not the tiniest hint of that."

I keep telling people - as soon as Angel comes into the Sunnydale zip code, he loses IQ points and possibly memory-related braincells.

He is NOT the same Angel.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

You could tell me it was The First, and I'd be more likely to believe it.

I mean, I 'get' that he wanted to keep the shows separate, but the way it played was just weird. (And a total wasted opportunity. How cool would it have been if The First had shown up as Angelus in that scene in the basement in Chosen?)

[thedabara-cds.livejournal.com]

That wasn't The First, or Angel; that was Angelus pretending to be Angel. It's the only way it makes sense! Er, well, except for the part where he didn't let all the air out of the bus tires like he'd planned...

And I have to agree, when Buffy says her "Does it have to mean something?" crap, the look on Spike's face says it all - in that one shot his face shows that she just lost him for good - he finally realizes she's never going to stop with the mixed signals and he gives up on her.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

when Buffy says her "Does it have to mean something?" crap, the look on Spike's face says it all

That was exactly my reaction too. It hit me right in the gut - they were over, and he knew it, even if she didn't. That "let's just go be heroes" after that... so resigned. From that moment on, it played like he was expecting to die soon, and frankly wanted to.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, yeah, that's exactly how it plays for me, which is also why Spike in a tailspin throughout the first half of AtS 5 makes sense to me. He's lost his raison d'etre and it takes him a while to find his footing to figure out what to do next. He floundered for a while, but it was... human.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it was. The part that kills me about it is what it does to Buffy's story that he felt that way - I'd almost prefer to think that she was The First in that scene in "End of Days" rather than suck up and accept the idea that she honestly couldn't read his reaction there. It makes the whole point of that scene one of those "cute" misunderstandings from sitcoms, which we then get again a few minutes later from the other side, with the overseen kiss.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Bwha!, about Angel should have let the air out of the tires. I swear to god if AtS Season 5 Angel hadn't admitted to taking the amulet to Sunnydale, I'd totally fanwank it forever that that was The First in those scenes.

And I have to agree, when Buffy says her "Does it have to mean something?" crap, the look on Spike's face says it all - in that one shot his face shows that she just lost him for good

Yep. That's exactly how it plays to me. And that look where she's upset when he tries to downplay the EoD stuff just makes me want to smack her. It's like she's not willing to meet him 1/4 much less 1/2 way, but she certainly can't stand him having any reluctance. He fell. He's supposed to stay fallen, and, apparently, he's not allowed to protect his own feelings at all.

But, yeah, I always feel as though that was Spike asking whether there was the tiniest thread to cling to and having that thread break once and for all. He gave up on them... and I've never blamed him for it.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

(nods) This is exactly why I can't, even in my Spuffiest of moments, ever visualize a trouble-free future for those two - the miscommunications are too great.

[spikendru.livejournal.com]

*nods*

Yep. And I've just realized why the only way I could get them together post-Chosen/post NFA was to give Buffy amnesia from a head injury, and to have Spike shanshu (before being turned again by Dru) and allow them to meet and fall for each other without all the baggage. Until this moment, I couldn't figure out why I was unable to get Spike and Buffy together post-series without some actual intervention, but that's it!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

And here I am and the only way I could accomplish it was for them to wait 17 years and for the world to end.

We're quite the optimistic group, aren't we? :)

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

I feel empowered, don't you?

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Like you handed me an axe-thingie, called it a scythe, and forced superpowers on me... only without the warm afterglow.

[spikendru.livejournal.com]

Hee! We certainly are! But that relationship just had too much potential to allow it to just fade away! I really do believe that in the long-term scheme of things Spike is the only one who can truly "get" her, because he understands her down to the bone. I could never understand why Mutant Enemy couldn't see what was right in front of their noses, if they ever bothered to actually watch what was on the screen, rather than what they thought they were writing. And I just never got the Angel is her soulomate crap, because both she and Angel are still relating to the fantasy of each other that they're continuing to maintain. *sigh*

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

The thing that scares me is that I usually see more stuff that annoys me than the first time, and I was far from a happy camper then. Rewatches make me focuses on weird pacing and staging issues, and wondering where the Potentials keep disappearing to, and wondering where Giles sleeps, and... and yeah, don't even get me started on Buffy's sudden regression into babblespeak when Angel shows up. His whole appearance is a big whaa--? moment. To this day, I still don't understand why he wasn't played as being The First. DB probably would've loved playing Angelus again - he so shines at that.

I've never listened to the commentary. (I still have the episodes on tape, not DVD.) I've heard the guy talk in person after S7 ended; I know it would absolutely light my head on fire to hear his inner thoughts there.

[paratti.livejournal.com]

This would be why I've not only never rewatched the show after Chosen but also purged the flat of every single tape of the thing.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

For me, it's really only the last season that gets my dudgeon all the way up, although that does bleed backwards pretty much all through S6, since nearly the issues raised there ended up unresolved and/or just got worse. But Joss is probably permanently tainted for me; I won't ever be able to lose myself in one of his works again because I expect that kind of burn now. Conditioning: not just for Pavlov and drooling dogs anymore!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Honestly, the worst thing about Season 6 (and there are plenty of flaws with Season 6) is Season 7. Season 7 keeps feeling like desperate avoidance of core four dealing with any of their own problems from their behavior in Season 6 in any way except in the most superficial, most expedient way (or shifting it to being only Anya's and Spike's issues.) Had Season 7 been more about re-building the characters and less about trying to re-boot them to former versions of themselves, trying to pretend that nothing had really changed, it could have been a different season. Perhaps one that would have more emotional resonance and less complete frustration. It constantly feels like they're running scared from taking any stand or having any progression on any issue.

Also, you're right about Whedon projects. It really doesn't matter to me how intriguing Dollhouse may or may not be, there's simply no way in hell I'll ever invest any emotion in it because I've learned that lesson a little too well.

And, honestly, watching a show with no emotional investment grows old and feels empty. If I'm looking for that, I have Battlestar Gallactica.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Season 7 keeps feeling like desperate avoidance of core four facing dealing with anything from their behavior in Season 6 except in the most superficial, most expedient way. Had Season 7 been more about re-building the characters and less about trying to re-boot them to former versions of themselves trying to pretend that nothing had really changed, it could have been a different season.

God, yes. Everything you're saying in this paragraph really hits home with me. And I'd had such hope at the beginning of the Season that that's what we were going to get, too. The tools were all there - The First could've worked brilliantly to help with that, to present all the characters with the ghosts of their guilts, or to goad them to relapse, or... gah. Can't think about it too hard or it starts to drive me crazy again.

And, honestly, watching a show with no emotional investment grows old and feels empty. If I'm looking for that, I have Battlestar Gallactica.

Bwah! That honestly made me laugh. So true.

I don't think I'd be into Dollhouse at any rate - the premise sounds dreadful, just the sort of thing that would rile up my ranting feminist. And I've seen plenty of broken-dollies fetishism in anime, thanks - it's old hat in genre stuff in Japan. There are terms for it.

[spikendru.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, exactly! And that's why we went into the movie Serenity, completely unspoiled, making bets on whether Wash or Zoe would die. Seriously, Joss' edict of no functional, happy couples ever, without pain or death intervening had become so damn predictable that NONE of the six of us doubted that one or the other would die! (Although, I did lose $5, because I reasoned that Wash's grief over Zoe's death would appeal to Joss, so I bet on Zoe.)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I have them up on a shelf... and never watch them. Sad, huh?

And I realized after re-watching a few episodes that while I can rewatch Farscape endlessly with never a loss of squee, and while I'll occasionally pull out AtS episodes and enjoy those. BtVS CDs linger on a shelf collecting dust because there's still far more frustration, disillusionment in them than squee or intrigue. Even the things I squeed about at the time of airing, aren't squee-worthy when I realize the overall arc of the series.

It's sad, really.

[paratti.livejournal.com]

I kept mine for years, placed in a cupboard where I didn't have to see them admittedly, but I finally realised that I am never going to rewatch (or bother investing precious time and emotion in any of his new shows) and I needed the space for my Who DVDs, so off to the charity shop the official tapes and down the rubbish shoot the off-airs they went.

It is sad. The only upside I can see for those years for me is the people I got to know and the lessons I learnt about how not to write. And some great fic that showed what could have been.

As for DH, Dollshouse etc, Joss has been an abusive showrunner boyfriend every single time. Why should I believe he'd be different now, especially when he seems to have learnt nothing and is just repeating his same bag of tricks over and over again.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

The scary thing about the commentary is that it's so damn banal. Honestly, as much as Chosen sucked as a script (and I think it suuuuuucked.) He spends most of the commentary defending the (dead on) criticisms of it. Things like, sure incident X didn't make sense, but that's totally okay because he didn't have time to think of something else, or he thought the symbollism made sense (even if the action was stooopid). And his wishy-washiness irks. Oh I think it's romantic... but we held the line... we couldn't show them having sex... but it's totally okay if the audience wants to. The audience can make up whatever the hell they want. It sort of confirms for me that Joss doesn't even know what he thinks happened. He just let audiences see whatever they want.

Well, hell, Joss. I have fanfic for that. And, I'm okay with blank spaces, but I would like to think that the writer of the episode has some idea of what he thinks is going on. Oh, and then he salivates over Nathan Fillion. Look, I think NF is a neat guy. He seems really nice. He seems fun. He fits Joss's mancrush. But, dude, Caleb is nothing but a really, really, really bad cliche and a total waste of everyone's time. I don't know why anyone bothered.

And, yeah, it's a damn shame that they didn't use a little of DB's crossover time on a First as Angelus appearance. It would have made a hell of a lot more sense than some of what we did get.

*sigh* you're better off not listening to the commentary. It just confirms that Joss had long since ceased to have any passion or direction for the Buffyverse.

Also, the Potentials? The camera work in Touched is sooooo bad. I know they were going for a chaotic style to show that after kicking Buffy out, they were totally confused and at odds. But it goes on and on and on (deep breath) and on and on and on and on and on. It goes for freaking ever and not only leads nowhere, it annoys.

They could have cut out 3/4 of it and not lost a damn thing.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

[Sorry: quick edit. Typed too fast]

Caleb! Gah! There's a don't-get-me-started. Especially given that his intro specifically riffs on the first Friday the 13th movie, with him picking up the hitchhiker. Sure, yeah, we're subverting all those horror-movie cliches, eh? Riiiight.

I'm afraid I just don't get the Fillion thing. Never took to Firefly, so no transferrable love there. I think creators count too much on carryover fuzzies from the audience these days, when they should be worried about the other thing - carryover bitterness. For example, the last Star Wars prequel was definitely better than the first two, but after those, who wants to admit that?

And I'll take your word for it on the commentary. Sounds bad for my blood pressure.

They could have cut out 3/4 of it and not lost a damn thing.

I feel like that about a lot of the Season, unfortunately. There's some very disinterested camerawork and blocking, too many scenes of actors just standing in straight lines, or queued up on the couch. And I don't think it's my imagination that things only really come alive when Spike is having a big moment onscreen - the camera just loves JM in S7. It'd be an interesting experiment - not that I'm going to do it - to try skipping all of his scenes on a rewatch of the season, and see what's really left.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that my warm fuzzies for NF in no way relate to anything remotely Whedonverse. In fact Whedonverse detracts from NF love. My warm and fuzzies for NF is that I watched him grow up as Joey Buchanan on the soap "One Life to Live" and he's forever Joey Buch to me. As meh as I got over NF through the Whedonverse, he won it again by being humble enough to return to "One Life to Live" last winter for the death of his on-screen grampa Asa (the character. The actor retired, he didn't die). Fillion had a movie out, a tv series coming up on Fox, and crazy ass fans from Firefly and yet he still agreed to show up on a dinky soap opera for the final episodes of an 80 year old man, and he didn't phone it in. That Fillion did that, endeared him to me all over again.

... As an actor, though, I think he's overrated (and I never cared for Firefly).

As for watching Season 7 without Spike... I cannot imagine what would inspire anyone to do such a thing. :)

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Aw, that's a lovely story about Fillion - okay, I agree, the actor gets a pass. He's certainly not to blame here for bad associations I hold for his face.

As for watching Season 7 without Spike... I cannot imagine what would inspire anyone to do such a thing. :)

Neither could I but, y'know, I could see the value of such an experiment. For educational purposes.

And this is NOT, of course, to say that I think Buffy has no arc of her own, or shouldn't have had one. Just that I was disappointed by how relatively thin that arc ended up being.

At the end of the day, I'm kind of a big Buffy fan, and I remain annoyed that I still don't really know what I was meant to think of her by the end of that show. Or the comics. Gah.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

And this is NOT, of course, to say that I think Buffy has no arc of her own, or shouldn't have had one. Just that I was disappointed by how relatively thin that arc ended up being.

Thin and somewhat incoherent. There's this gap between seeing and telling. I understand what I'm being told about Buffy in Season 7, but do I actually see it?

Not so much.

[green-maia.livejournal.com]

100% agreed.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I think it's in the line of "the more things change, the more they stay the same."