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[shipperx]

I'm back home. We mostly had decent weather on vacation but, damn, it flew by quickly.

At work we've had something of a tragedy. One of our draftsmen's wife went into the hospital for a knee replacement. After she came home she abruptly died. Apparently, it was a blood clot. I feel absolutely terrible for him. Such a tragedy.

On other fronts, I've been embroiled with a three day e-mail argument with my sister. I have a pretty steadfast rule about not discussing politics online because I've seen enough online friendships and online groups implode over politics and... well... kerfuffles abound over stuff like sparkly vampires, for goodness sakes. If those can cause kerfuffles, then debates over politics go thermonuclear, which is actually understandable. Discussions of politics touch on very deep things. We've reached those opinions on our own and when seeing someone who sees things wildly differently it's really, really difficult to not say "How can you see X, Y, or Z that way? No. Seriously. HOW?!" However, that's been the gist of the fight (yeah, I think it actually qualifies as a fight) between my sister and myself the last few days. And I'm talking two women who grew up in the exact same household with the exact same parents. And right now we're sending e-mails back to each other that essentially boil down to "how on EARTH can you see things that way?!" My mother has advised me not to reply to my sister again on the subject because there really is no shaking my sister out of her current position, and I can say that the exact same thing applies to me. I haven't reached my choices lightly, and an argument with my sister won't change my position. But if two people who have pretty much the same background (albeit there's a somewhat significant age difference between us as my sister was nearly 13 before I was born)... well, if we can have some passionately held and substantially different viewpoints, then it's safe to say that people on the internet that come from wildly different circumstances are bound to run into areas where they are worlds apart in view.

I do try to be open minded. I try to be logical. I try (and consider myself to be) moderate (because that's just me). I try to understand different points of view... and, yeah, I sometimes still end up with "How in the HELL can you view X, Y, or Z that way? How?!"

I wish I had answers. I don't. I wish that it was possible to fully comprehend how everyone views the world, but it isn't. Sigh. Election season always raises tensions. And, as with the last couple of elections, I'll again try to refrain from discussing politics in my LJ because I use my LJ as a stress reliever and political debates do indeed stress me out. But, my lack of speaking about politics doesn't mean that I have no political opinion. (I think the default icon in my LJ -- as opposed to the one in my post -- makes it apparent what my current position is. But that's probably about as far as I intend to go with politics in my LJ.)

Although, now I have to see my sister tomorrow (because of the game) and either we're going to end up continuing the political argument in person (apparently I've "changed" according to her. Er... no, not really. My beliefs are the same as always, and I see myself as standing by those beliefs. But, I have to say, reading some of her current views feels surreal, so I suppose the same must work in reverse. Although, no, I really haven't changed what I think, even if it's expressed in a way that she didn't anticipate).

*sigh*

At any rate, it's either pretending to sisterly amnesia tomorrow or slogging through another argument, this time face to face, with zero possibility of our changing each others views in any way (we are a family of stubborn people).

Comments

[laurashalo.livejournal.com]

I always wish I could understand why some of my friends with such similar backgrounds to my own have such different views of the world from me, politically speaking. It really is interesting to me. Some of them I can hash it out with, but I do have certain friends and relatives who I don't discuss politics with because, well, they don't do it well. They get emotional and upset or worse, they get personal. There's just some friendships I really am afraid I'd hurt if I even had what I considered a light debate. I do make comments on my journal, but at this point, I only respond to someone who comments if I know they can discuss things well. Otherwise I just let it go which sounds like the best tact to take with your sister.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I just let it go which sounds like the best tact to take with your sister

It is. My brother-in-law pretty much has mocked my view (although he always does it in a patronizing way like I'm not supposed to notice that it's mockery). And, probably because of the age difference, my sister becomes motherly like "how can you have become so misguided?" And that's patronizing too. (Ironically, our mother actually agrees with me, so actual mother not adopting that "mothering" tone. Older sister? Bringing it out in spades).

I didn't make a decision out of thin air. So when she accuses me of betraying my principles, I find myself staring in shock at her because...I haven't betrayed anything. I am, however, stunned by her willingness to overlook what I know she believes so that she doesn't have to be jolted out of her comfort zone.

But... she won't be jolted, and my Mom is right. This argument is usless. But, I think we've (accidentally?) exposed a fairly significant division in POV.

I remember once, years ago, I told her that I wasn't as conservative as she was and, for some reason, she laughed and said that wasn't true. And I repeated again, that I really wasn't as conservative as she was. Now, because I actually told her last Friday (and in the e-mails) how I think, she's calling me "liberal" and saying that I've "changed". Er... no. I'm a moderate. I was a moderate last week, last year, and ten years ago. I'm a moderate now. And I'll be a moderate next year too. I haven't changed. We just have parted ways on what we define as "moderate".

[ww1614.livejournal.com]

If she thinks you're a liberal, have her have a go at me. :)

I actually think in a way you may have "changed" simply because you have been exposed to so many different people in fandom. I know it's "changed" me in a way. The *principles* and *values* are the same, but when you have more information/knowledge, you are changed.

We can't talk politics with two of my BILs any more. One of my sisters is like you, more moderate than the rest of us, but still voting for Obama, but my BILs are diehard Republicans who will vote for a Republican simply because he is a Republican, never mind their stands on the issues. With all respect to my much-loved BILs, they can be dumb as dirt when it comes to politics.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

If she thinks you're a liberal, have her have a go at me. :)

Oh lord. That might be entertaining (for me) but no fun at all for the two of you. :)

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

My family is not big on politics, but I'm pretty sure I'm the only one in my family who has ever voted Democrat, with the possible exception of my mother (she loved JFK). I'm sure they wonder what the heck happened to me.

Cinderhub is also a Republican. We do not talk politics. :-) He enjoys a good debate, but I do not, not with him or on lj. I don't begrudge people their political posts, I just wish they'd keep them respectful.

Good luck with your sister tomorrow. I hope she can just agree to disagree.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I have to say that part of what raised my debate to my sister to eleventy was when it seguewayed into religion. My family has never been particularly religious, my sister isn't particularly religious, and yet it quickly devolved into a religious debate (?!) where my sister began saying things that I really don't believe she actually believes. I mean, as I pointed out to her, she's the woman who I remember standing up in a fellowship hall asking the priest whether he believed Genesis was literally true and she heads the science department of the school where she teaches school... and yet, because of politics, she started defending the political stance about Creationism. I was totally WTF? My sister hasn't attended church in fourteen years. It was totally outside of any expected reaction that I thought she might have.

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

And I'm talking two women who grew up in the exact same household with the exact same parents.
Ha! I refer to Petzi Sis and myself as the "chalk and cheese Sisters". We agree on almost nothing in the entire world - we watch different local news stations, like different foods, have different political views, one likes only cats - one dogs and cats...
"pats you on back"

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

My sister likes to claim that I don't like dogs (because I don't own one) and clearly like cats better (because I do own a cat). I keep trying to explain to her that I like dogs a great deal, I don't own one because it doesn't fit my lifestyle. Somehow, though, this always translates to her that I must "like" cats better (she's a pretty huge dog person.)

[usedtobeljs]

I sympathize with you.

In my family, my father and one of my brothers are on the other side of the political fence from me and my baby brother. We do not speak about politics, for the sake of family harmony. ;-)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I don't even really view it as a fence, because my thoughts, beliefs, and stands haven't changed. I just think to be true to those thoughts, beliefs, and stances I need to vote for the candidate that best represents them.

[oneloveonelight.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't talk politics or religion with the fam anymore. I TRY not to on LJ but sometimes I can't help it if something in the world of politics pisses me off.

My uncle and I got into a screaming match about 10 years ago about religion and it took a long time to get over it. AND I used to bring up politics with my parents nearly every time we got together but.. I've stopped all that.

I'm the same way, I can't BELIEVE that people think differently than I do. I know everyone's their own unique person with different ideas. But sometimes I can't help but speak up when something clearly flies in the face of logic. It's just like, "WHERE DID YOUR BRAIN GO?! Have you been using it?!"

I say agree to disagree with your sis and try to resist the urge to bring up politics ever again. It's HARD, I know (and I LOVE to argue), but that's what I've had to do to maintain some kind of peace with my family.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Part of the problem is that politics isn't the only source of friction at the moment, just a particularly incendiary one so it's probably best for us not to drag too many of these thoughts out into the open.

[rahirah]

I feel your pain. :P

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Pain sharage isn't necessary. :)

Though I do have a (literal) pain in the butt from falling down outside the other week. No way to share that pain, though. :)

[cy-girl.livejournal.com]

Ugh, how awful. This is why I no longer discuss politics with my family. They come from an approach of making a gut choice and ignoring facts that don't support their position. There's no way to have a reasonable discussion with them.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I believe the option chosen yesterday was "complete avoidance of the issue." Truly, I don't know that it's even possible to discuss this stuff with her.

[kaydee23.livejournal.com]

I know I've been spamming about the election, and I should really stop. It's just so important to me. I'm not criticizing you or anyone else, but it does seem strange to me that people will gladly debate Spike vs Angel and expend a lot of energy on it, but they remain silent on real life issues. I've actually lost fandom and LJ friends over Spike. There's a group of fans I met and hung out with in Real Life a few times, who still don't speak to me over silly fandomd stuff. Mind boggling.

But I should put my stuff behind a cut. I really should.

I haven't spoken to my sister in months, and I know better than to speak to her about this now. She's intractably Republican, Right Wing Conservative, and she laughs in my face like I'm an ignorant child, if we ever do try to talk about this stuff, so I stopped trying with her probably 20 years ago. We're only 4 years apart, too.

I also can't speak to my father or brother about it because they feel the same way my sister does. In fact, my brother worships Rush Limbaugh so much, if he'd ever had a son, I'm sure he would have named him Rush Limbaugh. I'm not kidding.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I think it may be due to what we use our LJs for. Some use it for catharsis or for expressing themselves. Others use it primarily for fun. In that regard, when discussing things about vampires it's easy enough to turn it off when you turn off the computer going "Geez! It's not lilke any of that stuff actually matters. It's fictional vampires for God's sake". You can't do the same thing with politics. It actually does matter. It's real and so the arguments regarding those take it to a whole different level of passion, feeling, thought, and hate. You can't just dismiss it with a roll of the eyes in the end.

I'm all for someone writing about politics if they wish to delve into those issues. But that's not what I use my LJ for. Real life is stressful enough without bringing it into my fannish existence which is supposed to be mostly for fun.