Yes, I'm just that cynical
Dec. 3rd, 2008 12:13 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shipperxPoking around some comments about and summaries of the current volume of BtVS Season 8, I've shocked myself and found that I have something to say about the BtVS comic.
First, I've enjoyed Brian Lynch's "Angel:After the Fall" and "Spike:After the Fall". I have quibbles, but they aren't particularly important because there are aspects of the stories that intrigue me and moments that move me. I liked Spike's relationship with Jeremy, and I liked the way Spike:AtF informed the character. And I've particularly liked Gunn's and Fredlyria's plot in AtF. So, while I have quibbles with this, that, and the other, mostly I think it's a good addition to the characters that I've loved.
BtVS Season 8, on the other hand... my reactions have ranged from 'paralyzed with not caring' to 'wow, it really is crack!fic!'
And, just to clarify, my reactions aren't tinged with outrage or disappointment becauseI'm paralyzed with not caring it's just not canon to me. I know, Joss is in control of it so technically it's supposed to be filed as canon. But knowing something doesn't necessarily change how I feel.
I suppose it could be the change in medium. If it feels different, it is different. So, while I like AtF, I don't find myself feeling about it the same way that I felt show canon. Because of this, the comics automatically file themselves in the same corner of my head as fanfic. It may be (or in some instances in BtVS Season 8, may not be) interesting, and I might even wish to play with it someday. But it's simply a different beast than the show.
I only state these things to explain that I'm not reacting to the BtVS comic because I either like or dislike it. It's not very important to me, which is why it surprised me that, while poking around in summaries and comments about the comic, I found myself with an urge to post about it. What I wanted to say was -- don't expect Joss to plug the plot holes.
As I read theories that somehow Joss will pull everything together in a revelatory twist I was struck by an extreme case of deja vu. We've been here before, haven't we? I remember "William the Poet"crack posts claiming that Season 6 had exact parallels to the Wizard of Oz or Catcher in the Rye or... I don't know. WtP was bullshitting all sorts of stuff, but the point was that he was freely bullshitting elaborate conclusions to what was on screen, and his elaborate theories developed quite a large following in fandom. Many people bought into the complex, baffling WtP POV. I also remember some board where a particularly insistent poster claimed that there would be an existentialist revelation about what Season 7 was really be about and that Joss would reveal it in the finale and blow. our. minds. (I also remember being called 'evil' and 'the devil' by someone for being pessimistic about story direction and that if I were a decent human being that I'd have greater faith in Buffy Joss.) Anyway, reading elaborate theories being tossed about where BtVS Season 8 is "really going" makes me ask -- did we learn nothing?
True, I've never been of the "Joss is God" school, but that isn't saying that I discount his talent. The man has talent. He has strengths. He gives great dialog and he can rip our hearts out and leave them bleeding on the floor in a way that makes us masochistically beg for more (until, perhaps, we've been hurt one time too often). He definitely has the ability to draw people into his work and his world and to inspire adoring fans. And that is a talent. But writers, even good ones, have their weaknesses. For example, I enjoy Neil Gaiman books, but to be perfectly honest, despite my enjoyment of his work, most of his stories meander a great deal. They are rarely tightly plotted (even the shorter works). Many times the stories only have the most vague of points to make, and Gaiman has a tendency not to have particularly strong endings, even to strong stories. I don't care too much about these flaws because, with Gaiman, I enjoy the journey and his slightly off-kilter point of view. I also enjoy Stephen King, but he also has a tendency to wander (okay, he flat out self-indulges. That frequently seems to be the pitfall of the uber successful. And, yes, I'm looking in a few other authors directions. (*cough*Anne Rice-Stephanie Meyer-LKH*cough**not-that-they're-'good'*cough*) King can also be repetitive in his themes. Again, I don't scream about these flaws because I enjoy the journey. I can sit down and objectively analyze the problems with the plot, but that doesn't necessarily change the fact that I enjoyed the book. Joss, at his best, falls in that same sort of category. And, as long as there is enjoyment in the ride, the plot holes don't matter. But, if you aren't enjoying the ride, let me say that I'm extremely skeptical that whatever he does in the end will be enough to fill in the plot holes that annoy you.
The thing is, when I read that somehow, some way Joss will miraculously pull the plot together seamlessly in the eleventh hour so that everything make sense (or is worthwhile) I wonder... what shows were they watching? Joss has his strengths -- he can do emotion, humor, and theme. He can break your heart or make you laugh. But he thinks tactically not strategically. And, more to the point, I'd argue that he always has. Thinking through the entire run of BtVS, have long-term plots ever been his strong suit?
He could always turn in a great episode. And an episode might have a really strong, last act twist. But the long term plots? Think about it.
First episode of BtVS Season 1: girl is "chosen" by a calling she doesn't want. She just wants a normal life. She's got the alluring, mysterious guy who gives her information but not much help, and she has her friends who do (help, that is). . . Finale of Season 1: girl has a prophecy/calling that she doesn't want. She just wants a normal life. Intriguing, dangerous guy gives information but not much help, but her friends do (Xander does). And for an evening, she's the 'normal' girl who can go to the dance. Yes, there are really cool moments and episodes, but they're book-ends, not an overarching plot.
Season 2, we have "Angel the inappropriate boyfriend that Buffy doesn't entirely know" from pretty early in the season. Heck, that's what Dru was introduced for. She was (and was intended to be) big, flashing sign of "You don't really know him!" "Surprise", came from that message and was a great plot twist... for the "Surpise"/"Innocence" two-for. But the overall plot of the season was a series of reiterations the original point. It didn't create a different one or transform the original. The entire Season 2 Angelus plot pivoted around a relatively unchanging theme (not to mention a theme that was resurrected in new and not entirely different forms for Season 6). There are wonderful, wonderful things in Season 2. There are iconic moments, and I'm not knocking it as a haunting, engaging emotional trip. But if you break down the season -- more of it wanders than tends to stick in memory -- it was largely about exactly what it said it was about -- inappropriate older boyfriend for a young girl. Damage and disillusionment ensue. We can hope she learned something from it...at least, until next season. (And if you think Xander's deception about the souling is going to be addressed...well, don't hold your breath).
Season 3? WAAAAAANNNNDDDDEEEERRRRSSS. Now, stand-alone episode-wise, Season 3 delivers some of the absolute best episodes of the series. But if you were someone running around thinking that Buffy was going break out of the pre-ordained good girl/bad girl privileged girl/poor girl dynamic, you were waiting for a twist that was never going to happen. Buffy was the heroine... even when she was not very nice. Buffy = Good, Faith = Bad. This wasn't going to be overturned (on BtVS, at least. Poor Faith was doomed to always be the lesser Slayer on the original show). And the whole 'Angel leaves' plot was on its last legs for, well... the entire season. He could have as easily exited after "Lover's Walk" as after "Graduation." It would have been fewer episodes, and he would have been missed. But, story-wise, nothing substantially changed in between those episodes.
Season 4... guh. Want to talk wander? A lot?
Season 5? Like Season 2, there are some wonderful things here. And, yes, Dawn is a twist, but I tend to think that it goes back to tactical thinking rather than strategic thinking. Joss thought up Dawn and thought she would be cool. He had a thematic and tactical reason for her. He almost certainly had the concept of Buffy jumping off the tower to save a bit of herself in Dawn. But...where was that going? He had a specific moment he wanted to reach, but he didn't have a great strategy that it fit into. Once created, what he was going to do with Dawn? That, I think, is largely why there was really nothing done with her after Season 5 (and no great come back for killing Buffy... and no, I don't consider season long depression a great comeback).
In Season 6 Mutant Enemy hit the same, depressing point over and over and over and over again. They hit it so often that fans began insisting that there had to be a twist somewhere. There had to be something about abuse of power or selfishness or overweaning pride. Something -- anything... more (or different). It couldn't just be this. Surely there was would be more than "Woe! Life sucks." Shouldn't there be? Wouldn't there be? WOULDN'T THERE?! Who knew that a glimpse of blooming oleander and a speech about crayons would be the elixer to solve problems that had persisted and persisted and persisted [deep breath] and persisted well past the point where they could feasibly sustain dramatic tension or momentum. Tactically, Joss had a point, but an overall strategy? Not so much. I cannot help but think that if a primary character's death can be shifted back by half a season and another pivotal plot moment created post-episode break-down on a writer's whim and yet the story still reached the exact same destination that it was always intended to reach... Well, I can't help but think that systematically building to the climax wasn't the primary goal. In season 6, Joss's 'real' point was the point that he made and kept making, even when it had reached a state of repetition so sustained that viewers began looking for an alternative explanation because it couldn't possibly be the anvil that he had already dropped on our heads a million times. Could it? But, in actuality, we really were being given cycle that kept repeating until Joss decided to resolve it in the finale -- because of it was the finale -- when he could have resolved 4, 6, 8, or even 10 episodes earlier because there was little in between that added to the conclusion that we hadn't been shown or told earlier.
And Season 7? Do we even have to state how much that season wandered? Do we have to point out the WTF moments where we thought that surely Buffy's overbearing behavior would be addressed, or the return of her ennui discussed... but it was mostly a case of a pep talk and it's over now. And, even though she changes nothing about herself other than the whole menstrual blood metaphor, suddenly she's a good general now -- a good general with a particularly stupid battle plan. Again, I do recognize that Joss had his tactical objective. He had 'girl power' and the visual echo of Season 1 in the waning moments of the series. I'd bet he had the silly menstrual blood iconic metaphor planned, the Slayer Scythe, the core four meeting and parting in the school hallway and perhaps even white-haired Willow. But does anyone honestly believe that the episodic structure built towards the conclusion with strategically planned progression? Or was it tactically hitting a few specific nodes before delivering us to an iconic montage? We had "Eye of Botox", we had The First and "it devours you from below." We had "I am the law," demon dust, and I see dead people. We had all sorts of things that intrigued and seemed to offer tantalizing glimpses of plot, but they were notes thrown in on the by-chance that he may or may not need them for his theme (much like Willows 'magic addiction' that apparently was cured because...um... it became inconvenient?) Things happen when Joss needs them, but if turns out that he doesn't need them for the long haul, then they can simply be overlooked. Because something happens doesn't necessarily mean it's intended as part of the whole. The places Joss goes may -- or may not -- have anything to do with his planned point of destination.
I'm not saying that Joss doesn't have a point or ultimate reason to his season. He usually has some sort of specific climax in mind. And he definitely uses themes and metaphors. But I cannot help but believe that anyone who thinks that, at the end of Season 8, Joss will come out with an explanation that makes all the weird WTF?! things fit seamlessly into the grand scheme... Well, I don't know that people have objectively viewed what Joss has done before. Even Joss's best plotted seasons are populated with events that happened simply because they suited him at the moment, not because they were a step towards his end. Rarely does Joss strategically build towards his goal, which is usually stated up front (albeit in a vague way), then reinforced by thematic repetition (or wandering away from the point entirely in less tightly plotted seasons) before he returns to puctuate the theme in the final hour. The stuff in the middle? Well, stuff happens. He doesn't sweat the details and he says straight-up that 'continuity is for wusses.' He's not going to let logic or logistics stand in the way of reaching his destination or the punchline of a joke.
Like his titular heroine, Buffy, he thinks tactically. "If we get a bazooka, we can blow it up! That'd be cool" rather than "We could use Xander's connections with a construction company to tear the roof off the school, then open up the Hellmouth during the day where we can play wack-a-mole with the ubies because they'd have to climb out of a hole!" That plan might make some sense but, hey, having a Slayer spell after you place yourself on the wrong side of a pinch-point makes for a much more spectacular a battle sequence with more 'tragic losses.'
Anyway, I know that I grew cynical about Jossian tactics long ago, but I honestly cannot think of a "Bruce Willis is a ghost!" twist at the end of any BtVS season that suddenly recast what we had seen before. Yeah, sure, we get Buffy defying the prophecy in "Prophecy Girl" but, remember, that prophecy didn't come up until that episode (and Joss is pretty good with structuring episodes). And, yeah, sure, Buffy was good at thwarting the whole Acathla thing... that only surfaced in the penultimate episode. And the scythe, did it actually do anything? Did Jacob the Tightpants misogynist preacher-villain? Did the Knights of Byzantium? Or Buffy killing one? That didn't come back any more than Xander killing people with the singing spell. These things weren't essential to Joss's theme and thus, though they happened, could (and would) be ignored.
Joss's plot arcs generally aren't arcs. They are nodes connected by reiterating a theme. So, I honestly don't expect that things in the BTVS comics that make one wonder "what is this demented crack?!" will be explained away or deeply embroidered into the fabric of the finale. For all the shocking deaths and painful nadirs experienced by the characters that we loved, the plots were never particularly convoluted. Glory just wanted to go home and the First... well, who knows what in the hell The First wanted. It's just not that complicated.
If someone enjoys the BtVS Season 8 ride, then enjoy the ride. But I think that if you're not enjoying it, don't expect something to come along in the eleventh hour to turn the story into something else. It's not something else. It is what it is... at least, that's what I think I've learned from following Joss this far.
Speaking of Neil Gaiman, I did finish "The Graveyard Book" prior to the holidays and quite enjoyed it. That said, I thought the ending was odd in its timing. Prior to the final chapter I almost thought that he was setting up some sort of sequel where Bod is destined for something, possibly that he'd end up doing something quest-like with Silas, but then in the last chapter it seems to abruptly come to an end. I know that doesn't preclude a sequel, but it didn't particularly imply one either and though I understand thematically why Bod must go to live with the living and that it's a 'happy' ending in that he's at last allowed to go out into the world, travel, etc. It saddens me that so many tales about growing up end with 'losing magic'. I mean, really, couldn't he have traveled with Silas in the wider world? (BTW - I did enjoy the slow and not overdone reveal that Silas was a vampire. And I wonder about Silas. Why was he there? What was he doing fighting bad guys and adopting a child? Could we have a sequel about him?.
*Sigh* I know that it's the sci-fi nerd in me, but I couldn't help but wish that growing up didn't mean that Bod lost his contact with ghosts and invisibilty spells and vampire guardians and werewolf teachers. That's sort of the fun stuff, y'know? Going to Fiji, while fun, doesn't seem nearly as intriguing as Goblin Gates to sci-fi buffs.
First, I've enjoyed Brian Lynch's "Angel:After the Fall" and "Spike:After the Fall". I have quibbles, but they aren't particularly important because there are aspects of the stories that intrigue me and moments that move me. I liked Spike's relationship with Jeremy, and I liked the way Spike:AtF informed the character. And I've particularly liked Gunn's and Fredlyria's plot in AtF. So, while I have quibbles with this, that, and the other, mostly I think it's a good addition to the characters that I've loved.
BtVS Season 8, on the other hand... my reactions have ranged from 'paralyzed with not caring' to 'wow, it really is crack!fic!'
And, just to clarify, my reactions aren't tinged with outrage or disappointment because
I suppose it could be the change in medium. If it feels different, it is different. So, while I like AtF, I don't find myself feeling about it the same way that I felt show canon. Because of this, the comics automatically file themselves in the same corner of my head as fanfic. It may be (or in some instances in BtVS Season 8, may not be) interesting, and I might even wish to play with it someday. But it's simply a different beast than the show.
I only state these things to explain that I'm not reacting to the BtVS comic because I either like or dislike it. It's not very important to me, which is why it surprised me that, while poking around in summaries and comments about the comic, I found myself with an urge to post about it. What I wanted to say was -- don't expect Joss to plug the plot holes.
As I read theories that somehow Joss will pull everything together in a revelatory twist I was struck by an extreme case of deja vu. We've been here before, haven't we? I remember "William the Poet"
True, I've never been of the "Joss is God" school, but that isn't saying that I discount his talent. The man has talent. He has strengths. He gives great dialog and he can rip our hearts out and leave them bleeding on the floor in a way that makes us masochistically beg for more (until, perhaps, we've been hurt one time too often). He definitely has the ability to draw people into his work and his world and to inspire adoring fans. And that is a talent. But writers, even good ones, have their weaknesses. For example, I enjoy Neil Gaiman books, but to be perfectly honest, despite my enjoyment of his work, most of his stories meander a great deal. They are rarely tightly plotted (even the shorter works). Many times the stories only have the most vague of points to make, and Gaiman has a tendency not to have particularly strong endings, even to strong stories. I don't care too much about these flaws because, with Gaiman, I enjoy the journey and his slightly off-kilter point of view. I also enjoy Stephen King, but he also has a tendency to wander (okay, he flat out self-indulges. That frequently seems to be the pitfall of the uber successful. And, yes, I'm looking in a few other authors directions. (*cough*Anne Rice-Stephanie Meyer-LKH*cough**not-that-they're-'good'*cough*) King can also be repetitive in his themes. Again, I don't scream about these flaws because I enjoy the journey. I can sit down and objectively analyze the problems with the plot, but that doesn't necessarily change the fact that I enjoyed the book. Joss, at his best, falls in that same sort of category. And, as long as there is enjoyment in the ride, the plot holes don't matter. But, if you aren't enjoying the ride, let me say that I'm extremely skeptical that whatever he does in the end will be enough to fill in the plot holes that annoy you.
The thing is, when I read that somehow, some way Joss will miraculously pull the plot together seamlessly in the eleventh hour so that everything make sense (or is worthwhile) I wonder... what shows were they watching? Joss has his strengths -- he can do emotion, humor, and theme. He can break your heart or make you laugh. But he thinks tactically not strategically. And, more to the point, I'd argue that he always has. Thinking through the entire run of BtVS, have long-term plots ever been his strong suit?
He could always turn in a great episode. And an episode might have a really strong, last act twist. But the long term plots? Think about it.
First episode of BtVS Season 1: girl is "chosen" by a calling she doesn't want. She just wants a normal life. She's got the alluring, mysterious guy who gives her information but not much help, and she has her friends who do (help, that is). . . Finale of Season 1: girl has a prophecy/calling that she doesn't want. She just wants a normal life. Intriguing, dangerous guy gives information but not much help, but her friends do (Xander does). And for an evening, she's the 'normal' girl who can go to the dance. Yes, there are really cool moments and episodes, but they're book-ends, not an overarching plot.
Season 2, we have "Angel the inappropriate boyfriend that Buffy doesn't entirely know" from pretty early in the season. Heck, that's what Dru was introduced for. She was (and was intended to be) big, flashing sign of "You don't really know him!" "Surprise", came from that message and was a great plot twist... for the "Surpise"/"Innocence" two-for. But the overall plot of the season was a series of reiterations the original point. It didn't create a different one or transform the original. The entire Season 2 Angelus plot pivoted around a relatively unchanging theme (not to mention a theme that was resurrected in new and not entirely different forms for Season 6). There are wonderful, wonderful things in Season 2. There are iconic moments, and I'm not knocking it as a haunting, engaging emotional trip. But if you break down the season -- more of it wanders than tends to stick in memory -- it was largely about exactly what it said it was about -- inappropriate older boyfriend for a young girl. Damage and disillusionment ensue. We can hope she learned something from it...at least, until next season. (And if you think Xander's deception about the souling is going to be addressed...well, don't hold your breath).
Season 3? WAAAAAANNNNDDDDEEEERRRRSSS. Now, stand-alone episode-wise, Season 3 delivers some of the absolute best episodes of the series. But if you were someone running around thinking that Buffy was going break out of the pre-ordained good girl/bad girl privileged girl/poor girl dynamic, you were waiting for a twist that was never going to happen. Buffy was the heroine... even when she was not very nice. Buffy = Good, Faith = Bad. This wasn't going to be overturned (on BtVS, at least. Poor Faith was doomed to always be the lesser Slayer on the original show). And the whole 'Angel leaves' plot was on its last legs for, well... the entire season. He could have as easily exited after "Lover's Walk" as after "Graduation." It would have been fewer episodes, and he would have been missed. But, story-wise, nothing substantially changed in between those episodes.
Season 4... guh. Want to talk wander? A lot?
Season 5? Like Season 2, there are some wonderful things here. And, yes, Dawn is a twist, but I tend to think that it goes back to tactical thinking rather than strategic thinking. Joss thought up Dawn and thought she would be cool. He had a thematic and tactical reason for her. He almost certainly had the concept of Buffy jumping off the tower to save a bit of herself in Dawn. But...where was that going? He had a specific moment he wanted to reach, but he didn't have a great strategy that it fit into. Once created, what he was going to do with Dawn? That, I think, is largely why there was really nothing done with her after Season 5 (and no great come back for killing Buffy... and no, I don't consider season long depression a great comeback).
In Season 6 Mutant Enemy hit the same, depressing point over and over and over and over again. They hit it so often that fans began insisting that there had to be a twist somewhere. There had to be something about abuse of power or selfishness or overweaning pride. Something -- anything... more (or different). It couldn't just be this. Surely there was would be more than "Woe! Life sucks." Shouldn't there be? Wouldn't there be? WOULDN'T THERE?! Who knew that a glimpse of blooming oleander and a speech about crayons would be the elixer to solve problems that had persisted and persisted and persisted [deep breath] and persisted well past the point where they could feasibly sustain dramatic tension or momentum. Tactically, Joss had a point, but an overall strategy? Not so much. I cannot help but think that if a primary character's death can be shifted back by half a season and another pivotal plot moment created post-episode break-down on a writer's whim and yet the story still reached the exact same destination that it was always intended to reach... Well, I can't help but think that systematically building to the climax wasn't the primary goal. In season 6, Joss's 'real' point was the point that he made and kept making, even when it had reached a state of repetition so sustained that viewers began looking for an alternative explanation because it couldn't possibly be the anvil that he had already dropped on our heads a million times. Could it? But, in actuality, we really were being given cycle that kept repeating until Joss decided to resolve it in the finale -- because of it was the finale -- when he could have resolved 4, 6, 8, or even 10 episodes earlier because there was little in between that added to the conclusion that we hadn't been shown or told earlier.
And Season 7? Do we even have to state how much that season wandered? Do we have to point out the WTF moments where we thought that surely Buffy's overbearing behavior would be addressed, or the return of her ennui discussed... but it was mostly a case of a pep talk and it's over now. And, even though she changes nothing about herself other than the whole menstrual blood metaphor, suddenly she's a good general now -- a good general with a particularly stupid battle plan. Again, I do recognize that Joss had his tactical objective. He had 'girl power' and the visual echo of Season 1 in the waning moments of the series. I'd bet he had the silly menstrual blood iconic metaphor planned, the Slayer Scythe, the core four meeting and parting in the school hallway and perhaps even white-haired Willow. But does anyone honestly believe that the episodic structure built towards the conclusion with strategically planned progression? Or was it tactically hitting a few specific nodes before delivering us to an iconic montage? We had "Eye of Botox", we had The First and "it devours you from below." We had "I am the law," demon dust, and I see dead people. We had all sorts of things that intrigued and seemed to offer tantalizing glimpses of plot, but they were notes thrown in on the by-chance that he may or may not need them for his theme (much like Willows 'magic addiction' that apparently was cured because...um... it became inconvenient?) Things happen when Joss needs them, but if turns out that he doesn't need them for the long haul, then they can simply be overlooked. Because something happens doesn't necessarily mean it's intended as part of the whole. The places Joss goes may -- or may not -- have anything to do with his planned point of destination.
I'm not saying that Joss doesn't have a point or ultimate reason to his season. He usually has some sort of specific climax in mind. And he definitely uses themes and metaphors. But I cannot help but believe that anyone who thinks that, at the end of Season 8, Joss will come out with an explanation that makes all the weird WTF?! things fit seamlessly into the grand scheme... Well, I don't know that people have objectively viewed what Joss has done before. Even Joss's best plotted seasons are populated with events that happened simply because they suited him at the moment, not because they were a step towards his end. Rarely does Joss strategically build towards his goal, which is usually stated up front (albeit in a vague way), then reinforced by thematic repetition (or wandering away from the point entirely in less tightly plotted seasons) before he returns to puctuate the theme in the final hour. The stuff in the middle? Well, stuff happens. He doesn't sweat the details and he says straight-up that 'continuity is for wusses.' He's not going to let logic or logistics stand in the way of reaching his destination or the punchline of a joke.
Like his titular heroine, Buffy, he thinks tactically. "If we get a bazooka, we can blow it up! That'd be cool" rather than "We could use Xander's connections with a construction company to tear the roof off the school, then open up the Hellmouth during the day where we can play wack-a-mole with the ubies because they'd have to climb out of a hole!" That plan might make some sense but, hey, having a Slayer spell after you place yourself on the wrong side of a pinch-point makes for a much more spectacular a battle sequence with more 'tragic losses.'
Anyway, I know that I grew cynical about Jossian tactics long ago, but I honestly cannot think of a "Bruce Willis is a ghost!" twist at the end of any BtVS season that suddenly recast what we had seen before. Yeah, sure, we get Buffy defying the prophecy in "Prophecy Girl" but, remember, that prophecy didn't come up until that episode (and Joss is pretty good with structuring episodes). And, yeah, sure, Buffy was good at thwarting the whole Acathla thing... that only surfaced in the penultimate episode. And the scythe, did it actually do anything? Did Jacob the Tightpants misogynist preacher-villain? Did the Knights of Byzantium? Or Buffy killing one? That didn't come back any more than Xander killing people with the singing spell. These things weren't essential to Joss's theme and thus, though they happened, could (and would) be ignored.
Joss's plot arcs generally aren't arcs. They are nodes connected by reiterating a theme. So, I honestly don't expect that things in the BTVS comics that make one wonder "what is this demented crack?!" will be explained away or deeply embroidered into the fabric of the finale. For all the shocking deaths and painful nadirs experienced by the characters that we loved, the plots were never particularly convoluted. Glory just wanted to go home and the First... well, who knows what in the hell The First wanted. It's just not that complicated.
If someone enjoys the BtVS Season 8 ride, then enjoy the ride. But I think that if you're not enjoying it, don't expect something to come along in the eleventh hour to turn the story into something else. It's not something else. It is what it is... at least, that's what I think I've learned from following Joss this far.
Speaking of Neil Gaiman, I did finish "The Graveyard Book" prior to the holidays and quite enjoyed it. That said, I thought the ending was odd in its timing. Prior to the final chapter I almost thought that he was setting up some sort of sequel where Bod is destined for something, possibly that he'd end up doing something quest-like with Silas, but then in the last chapter it seems to abruptly come to an end. I know that doesn't preclude a sequel, but it didn't particularly imply one either and though I understand thematically why Bod must go to live with the living and that it's a 'happy' ending in that he's at last allowed to go out into the world, travel, etc. It saddens me that so many tales about growing up end with 'losing magic'. I mean, really, couldn't he have traveled with Silas in the wider world? (BTW - I did enjoy the slow and not overdone reveal that Silas was a vampire. And I wonder about Silas. Why was he there? What was he doing fighting bad guys and adopting a child? Could we have a sequel about him?.
*Sigh* I know that it's the sci-fi nerd in me, but I couldn't help but wish that growing up didn't mean that Bod lost his contact with ghosts and invisibilty spells and vampire guardians and werewolf teachers. That's sort of the fun stuff, y'know? Going to Fiji, while fun, doesn't seem nearly as intriguing as Goblin Gates to sci-fi buffs.
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Date: 2008-12-03 07:15 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-12-03 07:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-12-03 09:08 am (UTC)As far as people discussing it goes, I'm getting a little annoyed with the snobbery that seems to be associated with not thinking that there might be an underlying theory, and the belief that some people have that everyone should just grin and bear all the crack for a year or more when it'll all be worth it. I mean, in the end, Joss is supposed to be entertaining us, even when he does things that we're not entirely happy with. Season 6, for all it's mind-numbing depression, was coupled with some kick-arse performances and had at least some sense that it was going somewhere (even when it didn't). All I've got from the comics is confusion and a sense of disappointment, which isn't pulling me into the story at all (and certainly doesn't make me laugh like Heroes does).
It is what it is... at least, that's what I think I've learned from following Joss this far.
Even if it isn't, it's all we've had for over a year, and I don't think that should have to be acceptable - that's basically what I'm saying.
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Date: 2008-12-03 04:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-12-03 04:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-12-03 04:26 pm (UTC)I've been reading the After the Fall comics, but not really enjoying them so much, probably in part because having to pay 25% more for the same number of pages, featuring what I consider substandard art gets on my nerves.
Regarding BtVS S8, I'm sure Joss is building towards a few twists, but those generally only make the already happy happier - they aren't likely to turn around the opinions of those who aren't. I've been pretty happy with the series, although there are some weird things in it that totally wouldn't have worked on TV.
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Date: 2008-12-03 05:30 pm (UTC)I think you're very right about Joss's disregard for a true arc. I would have liked to have seen something with regard to the Scythe and the Guardians, but, whoops, sorry, old lady dead now, let's move on. sigh.
Joss can be a great storyteller, but I'm really not going to fall in love with Dollhouse because I just don't trust him (or Fox) enough to expend that much energy. I'll watch it mostly likely to be able to join in the conversation the same as I'm doing for S8. Perhaps I'll even like it, but I hope I don't fall in love with it. I like my heart in my chest where it belongs. Not torn out and rips to shreds by Joss Whedon.
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Date: 2008-12-03 05:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-12-03 08:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-12-03 08:54 pm (UTC)One of the little plot bits in season 7 that never gets mentioned but I think is incredibly stupid is when they are questioning the Bringer after throwing Buffy out. Giles hold a knife to it's throat. Like threatening to kill the mindless minion of the ultimate evil that plans on destroying the world is going to make it scared enough to tell the truth?!Why not see if you can combine a truth spell along with the other spell thye used,that would make a lot more sense.
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Date: 2008-12-03 10:15 pm (UTC)And since you brought up Gaiman... I do love his books, though American Gods wandered off in its own direction more than several times. It was hard for me to get through. I just finished The Graveyard Book, and really enjoyed it, but also was slightly disappointed that it ended with him "losing" the graveyard. I do sort of get sick of the "lost magic" theme in stories. Though I sort of realized it was coming, since Bod slowly started venturing out into the world. I do wish we'd gotten more of Silas. Ever since the 'he only ate one type of food' line, I was sure he was a vampire.
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Date: 2008-12-03 11:07 pm (UTC)There was no love for the characters after season five - season six was a mess and season seven was worse. The comics are... (IMO) toilet paper substitute. I think he's had it with Buffy and Co. The man has talent as a writer, but when the love has gone for the characters you created, you just have to concede enough is enough. He needs to move on. Find something else. By continuing to prod and poke at the old things, he just denigrates their past. If you read the comics now, as a new reader without having seen the series on tv, would you love Buffy? I think not...
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Date: 2008-12-03 11:21 pm (UTC)I really liked the S1-S2-S3-S5 themes. (I ignore S4 because it's a mess)
First it's about Buffy understanding and accepting her calling and the mortality implied in that calling. Just when she does that -- WHAM -- she has to sacrifice the thing she loves most in the world in S2 (I tend to think of S2 being more about what Buffy has to be willing to sacrifice than about the inappropriate choice angle). I think S3 is best understood by treating Faith as a metaphor more than a person (because I totally agree about the rather unpleasant aspect of privilege that defines how Buffy is treated vs. how Faith is treated). Faith is about Buffy dealing with her own inner bad girl who is unleashed as a result of what Buffy suffered in S2. Skipping over S4, we come to S5 where Buffy has to again sacrifice the thing she loves best but where she manages to come up with a different, more acceptable answer (sacrifice herself).
How I wish it had all ended there. I too can see the temptation of the girl power message but the execution was just so terribly poor and basically overwhelmed by bad storylines and horrible characterization choices.
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Date: 2008-12-04 01:03 am (UTC)The thing is, even though I am absolutely anal about continuity and will fanwank the hell out of something to make it make sense, I have fun doing it with the TV show. I do not have fun doing it with the comics. I don't know if it's because the plot holes are getting bigger, or if the story is just so crackfic that I'm not interested in fanwanking (probably both), but I'm at the point now where not only do I not expect answers from Joss, I don't even want to try and come up with answers on my own.
(Here via the herald, btw.)
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Date: 2008-12-04 04:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-12-04 06:45 pm (UTC)I wonder how you would comment on the first half of Season Three? It seems to me that Anne through Amends seem to be about dealing with the consequences of much of what happens in Season Two (with, as you note, the exception of Xander's Lie.)
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Date: 2008-12-05 04:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-12-06 05:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-14 04:21 pm (UTC)Pimped this on my lj If thats okay.:
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Date: 2009-01-14 04:50 pm (UTC)Your take on the arcs of the televised seasons is brilliant, thanks for a very good read. Great stuff on the improvisatory nature of the plots (basic structure there, but bits in the middle filled in) and the mirroring of Buffy’s own tactics in Joss’s writing style.
I don’t think that that’s a bad thing, necessarily – tight plotting is just one possible good out of many goods, and the free flowing feeling of many of the seasons actually appeals to me. While I love Babylon 5’s detailed plot arcs, I don’t think every show needs to be like that.
However, you’re right re not expecting too much in terms of all the loose ends being tied up. I think perhaps some of the emotional loose ends might be tied up – the whys and wherefores in terms of where the characters are at. Might, anyway. But I don’t think we’ll be seeing a secret structure revealed.
I’m enjoying the comics, although some of the more wandering elements go too far (introducing time travel into an already complicated set of circumstances felt frustrating – a lost-like introduction of new questions and elements when the existing elements needed more exploration).
The “crack” elements aren’t what bother me, more the fact that I feel like interesting stuff keeps getting introduced but not explored enough.
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Date: 2009-01-14 04:51 pm (UTC)One of these is Scot Allie in his latest Q&A saying that Harmony's role in the story isn't planned but will change with the needs of the story, ie. if Joss sees further use for her down the line, he'll use her but her storyline isn't set in stone. In other words, more tactical thinking. Yep.
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Date: 2009-01-14 06:40 pm (UTC)I must say I feel like I really *was* watching a different show than you if Season 2 is being reduced to only "inappropriate older boyfriend for a young girl."
I think you might be confusing fans' expectations of a tightly wound thematic seasonal arc for a tight plot. Comparing the same Season 2 in a thematic sense, we open with a girl terrified of her calling and her place in the world. The season takes her through this exploration of her identity (another slayer shows up to challenge her sense of being the one, she enters into a sexual relationship with disastrous consequences). And Becoming is aptly named because it finally shows that moment where she says, "Me." She has accepted her inner strength, accepted her grief at her failed relationship with her first lover, accepted her duty to now kill her lover in order to save the world. She is enough. She has become whole. Strong. Resolved. Only to regress after that moment of self-actualization when forced to send a souled Angel to hell. Rejecting her duties as the slayer and running away from her friends and family, her very identity which she had just owned so completely. Trauma and the resulting human response - fight or flight.
Joss has never been about tight plots in the sense that you seem to be categorizing them, but about creating plots that propel the characters' journeys. The plot serves to create moments and experiences that resonate and shape the characters. In fact, I have to wonder if he stopped "wandering" so much in order to create the desired tight plots, the character journeys would suffer since he's no longer making their experiences and reactions the primary focus.
Joss writes stories with the characters journeys in mind first and he creates plot events that will guide their growth/regression. The plot events serve as the underpinnings, the gravitational forces, of their forward momentum as they react to each other and the world around them. The plot was never really all that important - it was the way the characters reacted. Create random event A in order to make Buffy cry and question her ability to have a healthy relationship. And so on.
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Date: 2009-01-14 07:36 pm (UTC)Joss does write emotive journeys, and yes, in season 2 and in season 5 and in season 6 Buffy does have an emotional start point and an emotional destination. And, I think Joss is deliberate in both the beginning and the end points, exploring it through episode metaphors and themes.
Overarcing plots on the other hand are pretty concrete. It is what we see not what we may interpret from what we see. Plot is a tool. It is systematic mechanics. Observed action A led to reaction B resulting in incident C. It is text. Emotion is subjective and interpretaional in a visual medium, based on how one reads subtext into visible action... which is why there are a wide range of subjective interpretations of meaning regarding character actions or even metaphors like a falling house. While you end up with endless debates on what something means, we more or less have to agree on what happened. Action (and plot) is objective. Emotion of a character in a visual medium is subjective and theme is usually open to interpretation. It's more loose.
The emotional journey of Buffy may be her discovery of "me", but the plot is primarily her relationship with someone that led to action A resulting in consequence B and climactic sequence C. The emotion may be complex. The action? It's pretty direct.
Joss almost always has some emotional point he's making, that's what I meant by his telling story with theme. He is a strong storyteller in that regard. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that he's meticulously building a plot. He pretty much admits to this ("continuity is for wusses" and his DVD commentary about deliberately leaving blank spaces that audiences can fill for themselves however they like). He likes thematic emotional journeys, but he not always concerned with logistical detail.
The primary point of my post was that if you're someone bothered by the logistics of the plot thus far, then I don't think his resolution will change your feelings that regard.
If, however, you are someone primarily interested in the thematic and the emotive, you can be quite happy with the journey as it is.
I don't think that Joss will change his storytelling method to satisfy those who are driven batty by lapses in continuity. I also cannot think of an instance where in the eleventh hour he produced a foundational shift that turned the plot on its ear, suddenly making it entirely different.
Anyway, by plot I'm referring to plot structure, the mechanics of what is visible and concrete. Emotional underpinnings fall more in line with his use of theme and emotion... which has always been Joss's strong suit.
Basically, I don't think we're actually disagreeing. Joss does write emotional journey's first and if that's what you're most concerned with as a reader, enjoy it! Be happy! But his 'plots' are secondary or tertiary for him, and, if the logistics of the plot drive a fan to distraction, then I don't think the fan should expect the comic resolution to "fix" those logistical problems for them.
It's according to what you're looking for. Joss is what he is. I don't think he's going to change his spots.