LOST

[shipperx]

I'm going to have to watch that one again, because I wasn't paying close attention and most of it had subtitles.

I will say, that was one mean old bastard priest at the beginning! And lots and lots of attributing things to the devil.

And, is it me, or does Smokemonster's 'explanations' sound a whole hell of a lot like Twangel? Or maybe that's Jacob...

As I said, I need to watch it again and pay better attention this time.

Comments

[rahirah]

They're really building Jacob up as the Good Guy in all this, and yet somehow I can't buy it when we see the ways lives went in the sideways 'verse without his interference, and when you consider the way the Others behaved under his/Ben's/Richard's leadership.

[rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com]

If the ALT timeline turns out to be the result of what happens on the Island (and not the result of the bomb), then it actually makes a lot of sense. The characters who are joining Jacob's 'team' (which means choosing to live according to their better natures) are having better outcomes in the ALT (e.g. Ben, Jack, etc.).

I don't think the Others are a point against Jacob -- rather, they prove the concept. Jacob is about free will (and frankly, the writers are using a fairly standard depiction of the relationship of God to humans with free will here so it's all a tad disappointing in terms of creativity). The Others are only claiming to be working in his name while in reality they've been corrupted by their own natures. But Jacob (God) by nature of his non-intervention policy (or intervention only through emissary -- Richard -- who also seemed to have lost his way) also allow humans the space to err. I think the Others were actually following MIB for quite a long time and didn't even realize it. MIB had taken over the cabin and perhaps was speaking to Ben instead of Jacob. Or maybe Ben had never really had any contact with Jacob during his adult life (hence his comments before he stabbed Jacob).

I think Richard's been lost for a while, at least as far back as when Ben ousted WIdmore, or possibly before that.

All the stories seem to be about crisis of faith -- how can I believe in some higher power when it's constantly absent and all these bad things keep happening to me? And the lesson that Jacob is teaching is that it's not about believing in the higher power and some external purpose -- it's about believing in yourself and making the right chooses without needing to be told what they are. Jacob (God) doesn't want slaves who do good because he tells them so. He wants people to choose what is right because the law is written on their hearts so to speak. :-) So that in a gray world where Jacob and MIB don't exist, people still have a shot at being good.

MIB just looks like a garden-variety Lucifer right now, his role being to lie, manipulate, and tempt, with heavy emphasis on getting people to focus solely on their own needs -- hence the anti-Jacob who wants people to focus on things outside of themselves.

Actually, this concept was stated pretty clearly on The Seeker in the last new episode, which just makes me LOL! Richard said to one of the 'evil' characters that she was strong but her strength didn't come from the Creator or the Keeper of Death but it was her own.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

My jury is still out on Jacob (though my instinct is to remain wary. He's luring people to the island where they will almost certainly struggle and die... which is certainly god-like, but makes me wary regarding his true nature. I'm not sure that it breaks down as easily as good vs. evil. Old gods rarely do.) However, like you point out, the real evidence on Jacob's being is out until we know how he relates to the Sideways-verse.

Was the Sideways-verse created through his intervention? He touched each of them. Did their paths diverge from there?
From or into the Lost!Prime world?

Is Lost!Prime the world where Jacob interceded or is it the other way around? That question seems crucial.

If it's the Sideways, then I think Jacob may in fact be benevolent, because I think that everyone is going to have a happier existence there. So, despite having lured people into the Lost!Game where they are basically being sacrificed to kill time for trapped island gods, he's still giving them a real chance in the Sideways!Verse.

On the other hand, if Sideways!verse was created through a big bomb redux that Jacob didn't cause, then I think that means that Jacob is deluding himself regarding his benevolence and giving them 'free will'. By willing them, nudging them, and luring them, he's interfered, so the game wasn't really a fair test from the start.

If he has nothing to do with sideways-verse, I think it's showing that free of Jacob's influences, each character has the same issues but is in fact capable of their own redemption (I think there's a reason why both Sayid's and Sawyer's sideways are truncated. They both end on their crossing paths with a Lostee and there is more story to tell there). If Lost!Prime is the world created through Jacob's influence then, even if he thinks he's benevolent in giving them a chance to fight this game, he's actually interfered in their lives in a way that made most if not all of them worse (I say that because we still don't know about Jin/Sun/and Child) because I took the end of Sawyer's tale where he opened up to Miles as change in trajectory and because we know from Locke's Sideways that something is up with Locke's Dad. So there's more to go on that score. Also, Sayid crossing paths with Jin, I think is significant. And I'm also still curious (and suspicious) of Jacob having deliberately told Hurley to take Sayid to the temple as it was the only way to 'save' him, only for that to basically be the Templars to immediately kill him and that make Sayid (seemingly) MIB's gamepiece.

And the "kill before he says a word" has now been used regarding both Jacob and MIB. So...I dunno.

(I also don't think that Lost!Prime has helped Jack. In the Sideways!Verse he's worked on his Daddy issues and seemingly chosen to try to work on them with his son. In Lost!Prime he's still trying to find specialness/validation with association with a paternal figure. So I think Jack is better off in Sideways!Verse as things stand at the moment... which brings us back to the question of what Jacob's relationship with the Sideways!Verse actually is).

Basically, I need more info.

Until we know Jacob's relation to Sideways!Verse we cannot know for certain whether his intervention was as benevolent as he seems to believe. What really brought the sideways!verse into being? Jacob touching them with the hand of fate or their defying the hand of fate with a bomb? The jury is out on that one, I think, until we know the nature of the Sideways!World.

[rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com]

A couple of things (and forgive me for being long-winded but it's so hard to discuss this show concisely since it's so convoluted.).

If the timelines diverge after Jacob's touch, then we can most easily look for evidence of that with the characters who were touched as adults. Jack has David in the ALT. So Jacob's touch would need to have occurred prior to Jack having David. Jack would have been in or finishing medical school when he had David, true? If so, Jacob would have touched him prior to that...did Jack look that young in the candy bar scene?

Jacob touched Locke after he fell out the window. In the ALT, are the changes in Locke's life derived from that point? It doesn't seem like it but it's muddied by the fact that Anthony Cooper and Sawyer are implicated in Locke's timeline.

How about Sun and Jin? They were touched at their wedding. Then they should still be married in the ALT but their married lives may be different. So we can test that in the next ep because it looks like a Sun/Jim ep from the promo.

In terms of the 'kill before he says a word' and the knives....I'm not sure Dogen was actually acting on Jacob's behalf/instructions. For one thing, I don't think Jacob is trying to kill MIB nor do I think he'd send a candidate to do it. That's MIB's MO.

For one thing, MIB doesn't have a body -- Jacob surely knows that -- in fact, MIB alleges that Jacob is implicated in the destruction of his body/humanity. So how would a knife kill him? Dogen might think it would but surely Jacob wouldn't -- so that makes me think Dogen is unreliable in terms of evidence of Jacob's intentions or words. In fact, it makes me think that MIB has been screwing with the Others for a long time to the extent that their practices reflect a lot of MIB's lies more than Jacob's truths.

I do wonder, however, if the knife is what destroyed MIB's body and that's why MIB tries to use it to destroy Jacob's body via Richard. Jacob may have entrusted it to the Temple Leader's protection but ultimately Dogen may not have really understood what it was.

In terms of

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I think it got cut off at the end.

And I agree regarding the problems dating whether Jacob's touch is significant in the sideways-verse. Anthony Cooper makes it very problematic (and I hadn't thought about it, but I think you may be right regarding David. What was the date of the Apollo bar? Do we know).

The thing is, if Jacob isn't part of the Sideways-verse... then I don't think we can accept that Jacob is as benevolent as he claims (he may even think that he is, but with sideways verse we'd have evidence to the contrary) because in the Sideways-verse people are shown as being able to address their own problems... and if that's outside Jacob's influence, then I think it shows that Jacob's entire philosophical experiment is flawed. It isn't a fair test because he will have pushed them toward the island and that changed the parameters.

But that all depends on whether or not Jacob is responsible for sideways-verse. If he is responsible, then I think Jacob is a benevolent being. If he isn't... then I think he's one of overweening arrogance who thinks he's testing the ants morality when all he's really doing is torturing them.

So... my jury remains out on Jacob. Thus far he's said a great deal, but I haven't seen much in action that says he should be trusted.

And, I can't remember, wasn't Richard part of the circumstances that led to Ben killing off the Dharma Initiative? If so, that raises a whole other host of questions.

[rahirah]

Wasn't Richard with the Others when 70s!Kate brought Young Ben to them for healing (a healing which seems to be very similar to what Sayid went through - does it also plant the so-called seed of evil in Ben?)

We really need to re-watch the whole thing in order...though maybe fast-forward through some of the tailie stuff...

[rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com]

However, it seems possible to me that if a (or some) Losties 'pass the test' and prove Jacob's point to MIB that humanity isn't inherently corrupt, then the ALT could be the outcome of Jacob 'winning' the game, engendering a world where neither Jacob nor MIB exist (or where they have retreated into some other dimension where such supernatural types live). Which means that Jacob's experiment was proved true.

I can't remember the extent of Richard's involvement in that off the top of my head but again, I would say that it doesn't implicate Jacob because the intermediaries are just as flawed as everyone else and just as subject to be led astray.

I think one of the distinctions I see between MIB and Jacob is that we know MIB has killed people. However, all we know about Jacob is that people have killed claiming it was on his behalf -- which seems like a pretty clear metaphor for how people justify things in the name of their god that their god would never actually advocate.

[rahirah]

Was Juliette one of the people whom Jacob influenced to go to the island? Or was she merely drawn there randomly? If the latter, then I'd say that argues against the sidewaysverse being part of Jacob's grand plan, though of course it's not conclusive. (So far, there's no indication that he or MIB know anything about the sidewaysverse - also suggestive, if non-conclusive.)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

He didn't touch her in the flashbacks we've seen of him. But she was recruited by the Others so... inconclusive.

[rahirah]

Meh. If Jacob's modus operandi is to manipulate people onto the island, utterly screwing up their lives in the process, in order for them to learn a Valuable Lesson about not screwing up their lives... well, yeah, that fits the classical depiction of God, but my opinion of the classical depiction of God is not high. A plague on both their houses.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

A plague on both their houses.

I'm hoping that's the ending, right there. Sort of Sawyer's plan of "Screw it. Let the big guys fight it out. We're getting the hell off this island." :)

[rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com]

Ok, how is Jacob utterly screwing up people's lives? Did he create Jin and Sun's martial problems? Did he make Sayid a killer? Did he make Sawyer a murderer? Did he cause Cooper to shove Locke out a window? Give Locke and Jack their issues? Make Charlie a drug addict?

The Losties lives were already screwed up. Jacob didn't cause that; in many cases, those things happened before he even touched them. All Jacob did was watch the Losties and when he saw the potential in them to prove MIB wrong and prove that humanity is worthwhile, he touched them to mark them as candidates, then arranged circumstances so that they could come to the Island. And for some of them, coming to the Island resulted in them getting in touch with the better aspects of their nature which may never have happened off Island. (e.g. Jack, Sawyer, Jin, and Sun come to mind immediately).

Was that without their consent? Sure. That's the unattractive part of the 'game.' That's the tough part of being chosen. Just ask Buffy.

However, the Losties were able to get off the Island. It was only the machinations of various humans and the MIB keeping them there.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

No, Jacob didn't give them their issues.

But that's why the question of whether Jacob is responsible for the Sideways-verse essential in questioning whether he's actually a good force or just an arrogant one.

In Sideways!verse, Locke crossed Hurley's and Rose's path and gained perspective that allowed him to embrace the possible without bitterness.

In Sideways!verse, Jack crossed paths with Dogen and has a son where he actually begins to deal with his Daddy issues.

In Sideways!verse, Sawyer checks before killing the wrong man in Austrailia, and he crosses paths with Charlotte and Miles that created a situation where he opened up to Miles saying that he knew that Miles would talk him out of his plans.

And, in Sayid's truncated Sideways!verse, he had just crossed paths with Jin.

Meanwhile in Jacob-occupied space, Sayid is fast becoming a zombie, Jack is still dealing with Daddy issues, Sawyer is still conning, Claire is insane, Dogen is dead, etc.

So if Jacob isn't responsible for Sideways-verse, the entire premise that his willing them to the island offers the chance of redemption is blown. They were just as capable of redemption without him. Instead he just willed them into a game that was flawed by the very fact of his interference (not matter what he thinks hiw motives might be). All he accomplished was torturing people on an island.

On the other hand, if he is responsible for Side-ways verse (if it's his work-around MIB) then... yeah, he is offering redemption outside of MIB's influence.

As things stand, however, we just don't know. We don't have enough information to judge. But thus far Lost!Prime Jacob has done little to inspire trust, just demand it. And, if he is a God, he seems like a very old Testament god, the kind that allows Job to be thrown in a pit and tortured by Satan to 'prove' something or one who informs Abraham(Dogen) that he must lose his son to be worthy.

At this point, I just don't see trusting him. But then, I'm a skeptic at heart and agnostic by nature.

[rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com]

So I'm an atheist and don't believe in gods or devils; I'm just trying to figure out the story Darlton are intending to tell.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to remember where I read it, but I actually kind of think they may have said that it's not as cut and dried as pure good versus pure evil in some interview, but I cannot guarentee that and am misremembering.

I know that in the EW podcast they are aware of speculation that Jacob isn't good and that their response was to leave open that possibility. (Though the way that the whole thing was stated, I'm not at all sure that it was even the right question, because I in no way think that MIB is going to turn out to be 'good'. I suspect that MIB and Jacob are necessary counterparts, however, and you don't get one without the other and both are righteous in their beliefs. Even Lucifer was an angel...once.

... Speaking of, Supernatural just came on, and that actor makes a creepy Lucifer. :) (Maybe I'm influenced by the Supernatural overlap)

[rahirah]

We don't have any way of knowing how peoples' lives would have come out if Jacob had never interfered. Maybe they would have ended up even worse off. But their lives sans island seem, for the most part, to be better than their lives with island. MIB is no hero for keeping them on the island, but Jacob is no better for bringing them there in the first place. They're both manipulating people for their own ends, with very little concern for the well-being of their pawns, and I'd call them equally culpable for far too many unnecessary deaths.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's hard to come up with a reason why Alex had to be born and die on the island... unless it's a belief in Original Sin. And if that's the cause... I think we know what kind of god Jacob actually is.

[rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com]

So I would say that I don't agree with the point that their lives sans Island seemed better. I would cite Sawyer, Hurley, Kate, Jin, and Sun as evidence.

MIB could give a fig for the people involved; but I think Jacob is a far different matter.

And if the stakes are really about protecting the rest of humanity, then I can forgive Jacob for drawing people into the game.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

We'll know more about Jin and Sun's next week. But, as things stand, no.

However, I don't really agree about Sawyer. Lost!Prime Sawyer murdered the wrong man in Australia. Sideways!Sawyer didn't. Lost!Prime's Sawyer murdered Anthony Cooper and it brought him no peace. Alt!Sawyer may yet be swayed to another path. Juliet is dead in Lost!Prime, we have reason to think that perhaps in Sideways! she may not be.

I do think that Jacob is most probably the lighter half of the two, but I'm reluctant to think that it boils down to something as simple as pure good versus pure evil. Generally, Lost is more gray than that. Jacob may be more benevolent, but his bet is not a kind one. In fact it's a rather cruel one... just look and poor murdered Alex who was never allowed much of any life at all because of this 'experiment.'


I don't think that Jacob gave any of their characters their issues. But I do wonder whether he tainted the samples when forcing thme into a game. But, that's just a theory pending knowing whether or not Jacob is the cause of Sideways!Verse. If he created Sideways!Verse, then I think he's benevolent as he claims. Otherwise... not so much.

[rahirah]

Hurley considers himself the luckiest guy alive, Kate helped Claire, Sawyer's not a criminal and didn't kill the wrong man (yet, anyway), and I think the jury's still out on Sun and Jin, since it seems their story is unfinished. Their lives aren't perfect by any means, but on the whole, the decisions we've seen them make sans island seem better to me. YMMV. I want more solid evidence of Jacob's benevolence than that he's got purty eyes. *g*

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah, excuse me if I'm a tad dubious about his willing folks to the island for a godlike game of "Go" where they tell no one the rules. Seems somewhat short of altruistic and benevolent. God-like? Sure. In an Old Testament - Old Greek/Roman Diety sort of way.

The jury is still out on Jacob. And I think it remains out until we understand his connection (or possible lack thereof) to the Sideways!Verse.

[rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com]

It doesn't feel pagan godlike to me perhaps primarily because I think empathy, compassion, love, and sorrow seem to ooze out of Jacob's sad eyes. It reminds me of Q from ST if Q actually cared about humans.

I think this is some post-modern reinvention of god/satan. Two guys with supernatural powers -- perhaps formerly human since MIB claims he had a body and possessed humanity -- debating over the essential nature of humanity with the stakes being whether humanity gets to fumble towards progress on its own or whether it gets doomed to a heaping helping of darkness that will doom it.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Then again this is the exact same actor playing Satan over on Supernatural ... in not an entirely different manner. :)

[txvoodoo.livejournal.com]

All our popculture will eventually end up as ONE PLOT.

…right?

[rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com]

Especially if the Island is essentially a hellmouth, LOL!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

One story to rule them alllllll!!!!!! ;)

[paratti.livejournal.com]

But does it have penguins?

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Lord of the Penguin Rings?

Legolas Penguin: Still the prettiest!

[rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com]

If a ring shows up -- RUN!!!!

[sp23.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the subtitles had me paying a lot closer attention that I usually do. Dammit, I really need to buy that Rosetta Stone Spanish course. LOL

I feel as if the writers got Richard's time wrong. Everything felt like it should have been 18th century, yet they placed it in the 19th century. It just felt off to me.

As for the castaways being dead and in hell... well, that's been a fan supposition since Season 1, but I'm not sure. I'm still way too confused over this show!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Dammit, I really need to buy that Rosetta Stone Spanish course. LOL

That makes two of us.

As to what it means... Beats the hell out of me. As always, need. more. information. :)