Random AtS Thought

[shipperx]

sueworld2003 has posted responses that the new(?) editor to the Angel comics gave to some buffyforum questions. I wasn't particularly perturbed by her answers regarding Spuffy. First, because she came off as being relatively level-headed in response to the obviously Bangel-oriented somewhat pushy interviewer. Second, because I do not believe that there will be any crossover until such time as Joss is cravenly desperate for attention and/or readers and perhaps not even then. For that reason I find the ship debate to be moot. I was interested in some of her responses regarding Spike though. Specifically:

Buffyfest: I think getting his own story was way overdue. It always felt like he was vying for attention in someone else's series

Mariah Huehner: Which he sort of is, really. He's always second fiddle to Angel, because of the Shanshu. Although Spike's motives as a "hero" are less ambivalent than Angel's, which I find interesting.

Buffyfest: What do you think motivates Spike to be the hero?

Mariah Huehner: Earning his soul, I think. He didn't have it forced on him, he fought for it. Even when he was evil, he sought it out.

Buffyfest: Do you think he feels that he always has to be earning it? That he has to fight for justice or else what's the point of having gotten the soul at all?

Mariah Huehner: Sometimes. But I also think Spike, once he got over the crazy basement phase, understood that he'd chosen this, so he had to live up to it. He doesn't dwell on it the way Angel does.

I gather, in a third hand sort of way, that there has been debate about this. It's not a particularly new or revolutionary POV. I believe that Joss and David Fury have expressed similar views about this at one point or another, and I remember thedeadlyhook pointing out in an essay a long time ago that, while Spike may lose style points for the way that he does it, since acquiring his soul, he became remarkably consistent about being on the side of the right (albeit, Mutant Enemy never seemed to tire of the "will Spike go evil?" fake-out).

What tends to surprise me, however, are some of the fannish debates that go on. There is a line of thought that somehow Spike's characterization/struggle threatens or lessens Angel's. It almost inevitably descends into a "my vamp" vs. "your vamp" wars.

Why is it always placed in a context of wondering which vamp has the most trump cards?

It seems to me that most of the contrasts between Spike and Angel don't come out of trying to have one vamp have an 'up' on the other one, but out of the necessity for their own character construction and evolution.

Angel was 'cursed' with his soul. From a writing standpoint, that has to mean something (and character-wise that extends further than creating a Big Bad for Season 2). For Angel that has to mean something. If a writer creates a curse, it needs to chafe the character. If the character is a titular hero, he cannot be chaffed by the concept of heroism in itself. The friction then inevitably becomes conflict over his heroism. Basically, from a writing POV, from the need of friction for drama, it makes perfect sense that one of Angel's points of conflict be that his soul was forced on him and that Angelus (as opposed to Angel) doesn't want it.

Angel was, more or less, introduced as a heroic character (Well, mostly. In season 1 he had periods of passivity, but he was consistently one of the 'good guys.') When layering heroes, you're usually presenting (excusable) flaws. So in contrast to hero-Angel, we get Liam flashbacks and a 'see how much he's grown from who he was.' Angel evolved organically from the place he was introduced. He was given flaws and internal conflict. It makes sense that the soul -- which is a curse -- should be a source of conflict for him.

Spike began in a polar opposite position. He was the bad-guy. When showing 'good guy' Angel's background there was conflict in showing him as not-particularly-nice Liam. By the same token, when showing 'cool bad guy' Spike, they contrasted with 'not-at-all-cool, just geeky and heartbroken' William. Both sets of choices in characterization are, at least partially, products of how each character was initially introduced and what presented a good way to stretch them with a few internal contradictions.

The titular hero had the soul forced on him. This leads to internal conflict whenever he is given trust, accolades, or love (as tends to be given to heroes).

Spike is the one who sought his own soul but is rarely given trust, never given accolades, and who tends to find love and acceptance to be elusive.

This isn't a matter of either/or or what makes one vamp better than the other. It's a matter of writers needing to build a character over a long period time in a serialized story. They each started in one place and the writing needed to provide contrast, internal conflict, and an elusive goal. Spike's development isn't following the path of Angel's. Spike's path isn't a result of Angel's. In many -- if not most -- ways Spike is completely opposite Angel... which is why the two characters actually function quite nicely together.

But, at the end of the day, I think both characters came by their paths (and their characterizations) organically (for the most part). It's not constant brinkmanship where only one character can win best in show...or 'best' period. People don't work that way, why should characters?

Comments

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

Well you'd think that wouldn't you? Sadly the more rabid corners of internet fandom seem to think otherwise. *g*

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

If only everyone could be as reasonable as us. ;)

[hello-spikey.livejournal.com]

Here here!! That's succinct and very valid. I don't understand why people get all up into Spike vs. Angel - they work well together, very complimentary.

But, y'know, MY vampire is way cooler. Angel's as interesting as a lamp. :D

How do you feel about Angel Season 5? I mean, as a rabid Spike fan, I was so disappointed by the way he was somewhat 'dumbed down' it seemed to me, and the standard line of complaint is he was done that way so as not to compete with Angel for the hero spot.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what the writers' intentions were but I didn't percieve Spike as being 'dumbed down'. He was just Spike, who so often saw the truth of things when others didn't and wasn't afraid to say those thoughts aloud.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I think there were a couple of writers, those that had never worked on BtVS, that didn't know Spike particularly well and had some sketchy characterization here and there. That said, I think of Spike being essentially the same. Although there are points that I fanwank as being about seeing Spike through Angel's eyes rather than seeing Spike objectively.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Season 5 AtS? I think that AtS struggled with how to make sense of Spike in a new context. And, on a purely character-level, I think Spike was in the midst of a huge, difficult transition. He was in flux and the show was in flux as to how to use him, I don't htink they really solved it until "Hole in the World." Complicating matters was that some of the writers -- Craft and Fain in particular -- simply didn't know Spike and it showed in their writing until they got a bit bitchslapped by fandom and went back and watched BtVS.

I think any of those transitions are difficult, so I cut some slack, but it was rocky there for a while.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

Complicating matters was that some of the writers -- Craft and Fain in particular -- simply didn't know Spike and it showed in their writing until they got a bit bitchslapped by fandom and went back and watched BtVS.

Um...what? Details, please.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

My memory about the details of all of this is terrible, so bear with me.

Unlike David Fury, SdK, or Drew Goddard, the writing team of Craft and Fain had never worked on BtVS and, in fact, only arrived in the latter seasons of AtS. Their characterization of Spike in "Unleashed" was so...well...terrible that there was a bit of an online backlash (your standard fandom kerfuffle) that blew up into, I believe, a letter writing campaign to the pair. I don't remember whether this also coincided with their interview admission to having never watched the latter seasons of BtVS or whether that admission was part of their mea culpa interview. At any rate, at some point in some interview, the two admitted to having watched little or none of the latter seasons of BtVS, resulting in a bunch of fans writing angry letters and spelling out that the damn well should watch it because the Spike characterization in their episodes was downright shitty. In the mea culpa interview they said that after the letters (with lists of episodes they should watch) they did indeed go back and watch the latter season BtVS episodes and Spike and that they hoped that their episode(s?) that came after having watched the BtVS stuff would be more acceptable to fans (I vaguely seem to remember that their episode post mea culpa interview was better, but I can't even say that for sure. The only episode that sticks out in my memory as their episode was "Unleashed.")

Anyway, that covers Craft and Fain. Not sure what excuses some of SdK's and Goddards more odd choices as both of them wrote latter season (and even Spike pivotal) epsidoes of BtVS.

Bell (another who hadn't written for BtVS but did seem more familiar with the latter seasons of BtVS than either Craft or Fain) seemed stuck on the concept of Spike as Angel's little brother who constantly envied everything Angel had... and I think he got a few angry responses to that interview. I don't know whether he ever ammeliorated that view, however.

[kcarolj65.livejournal.com]

At first blush I was disappointed, too - sometimes it was hard to remember that Spike had earned his soul at all.

But then, after thinking about it some more, I realized that Spike's characterization was completely natural. The two don't trust each other, largely because of their shared history and the shame they both feel for it; neither witnessed the other's growth from soulless killer to ensouled champion and so don't trust each other's claims to it; and to top it off, they are rivals for Buffy's affection. Of course they're going to snark at each other and engage in petty one-upmanship arguments.

Add to this the fact of Angel's takeover of Wolfram & Hart. Spike knew what they are and, with his usual insight, instantly pinpointed Angel's midjudgment in thinking he could change the company from the "belly of the beast. What you don't realize is you and yours are being digested." Angel never took kindly being second-guessed, and given his incentive (Connor) for taking over W&H, he wouldn't enjoy having anyone point out how stupid it was, especially if that someone is Spike.

I think much of Spike's characterization in AtS Season 5 is based in self-protection, particularly when it comes to Angel. That, and he just flat-out enjoys being a royal pain in Angel's arse.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

But then, after thinking about it some more, I realized that Spike's characterization was completely natural.

I agree. I mean, I still have problems with some instances (such as being somewhat cavalier regarding his mother's death), but for the most part I think the majority of Spike's actions and attitude are explained if one takes him at his word in Chosen that he didn't believe Buffy's ILY.

Spike is a bit untethered. For years Buffy was his mooring. He was her backup, her sounding board, and she was his goal. Without her there (and no longer having much hope of her) he's a loose ends.

Add in that he did the big hero sacrifice thing only to be brought back in a rather demoralizing way. Spike, who was such a tactile and physical creature, is reduced to what amounts to sensory deprivation hell, unable to touch, to feel, to do much of anything except observe. Lindsey plays him for a fool and then he discovers that the reason he was brought back...well there was no reason. Not about him. It was just a way for Lindsey to yank Angel's chain.

So Spike is rudderless, deprived, and insulted all at once. Of course he's in a terrible mood and of course he's going to be more cynical and with some lingering anger going on.

Spike really didn't find a raison d'etre until Fred was dying. That gave him purpose that prior to that he had lacked, and that was when he became much closer to the Spike we had known before. 'Our' Spike had been there all along. He had just been going through a rough patch. (Which when compared to Buffy's recovery from resurrection, wasn't nearly as rough by comparison).

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

Very well-said.

[elisi]

which is why the two characters actually function quite nicely together.
Indeed! Spangel4eva! ♥

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Heh!

They do work in many ways in conjunction and in contrast to one another.

[shapinglight]

Very well put. I suspect that one reason why this question arises over and over is that some of the people raising it, unlike you, haven't the least clue how fiction works.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I am constantly dumbfounded by people in fandoms who never want characters to change from the way that they were introduced. I don't like characters fixed in space and time. All the interesting ones evolve.

[shapinglight]

I don't like characters fixed in space and time. All the interesting ones evolve.

I agree, and no doubt those people would insist they agree too. Then go on to qualify that they think in BtVS the characters evolved too much. :)

[ladyofthelog.livejournal.com]

Just so. Thanks for this!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Great post -- very well said!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[rahirah]

Oh, you and your Earth logic!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Could be worse. I could apply Vulcan logic. >:)

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

Well put!

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

This isn't a matter of either/or or what makes one vamp better than the other. It's a matter of writers needing to build a character over a long period time in a serialized story. They each started in one place and the writing needed to provide contrast, internal conflict, and an elusive goal. Spike's development isn't following the path of Angel's. Spike's path isn't a result of Angel's. In many -- if not most -- ways Spike is completely opposite Angel... which is why the two characters actually function quite nicely together.

On a reasonable day, I agree completely with you.

When I don't feel reasonable, I wanna tell (particularly BtVS season 1 and 2) Angel to move back to Forks. Bella might trip or something.

As far as the Spike diminishing Angel thing goes, I feel that Spike fans are always rooting for the underdog. It was Angel's show, and maybe if that Spike spin-off (mentioned in passing occasionally, at least I think there was one?) ever got off the ground, we'd get to see a show focused on him as the hero. As it is, Spike fans have to be more vocal about our vamp's heroic qualities because he never got the on-high affirmation Angel fans did. So, as it is, it sounds like we're diminishing Angel's heroism by shifting the spotlight.

That being said, Angel never did anything for me.

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

Perfect.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

I've said this before on the "Spike vs. Angel" thing but--

"Doesn't seem to me it matters very much how you start out."

Spike's past is often thrown in his face and why he went to go get his soul...Not that I care, cause he was already a hero (to me) pre-soul--just not a champion. Same for Angel--so he was cursed. Big whoop. That had to be a helluva thing to cope with. It wasn't something he chose, and yeah, it took him a long time to come to terms with it, but the bottom line is that he did.

<--loves both vamps in different ways, but equally. Even if Spike is her favorite.

But yes--very well said ;)