I think I'm missing an angst gene...

[shipperx]

Angst. Shows love it. Season finales love it. Whedon loved it. GRRMartin loooooves it.

Myself? Not a huge fan.

I seem to have limited patience for it.

While quite well made and well acted, Kate Winslet's movie "Jude" is still the movie that I most wish that I had never watched.

And angst is one of the reasons that in retrospect, I lost some of my love for the 10th Doctor. He got entirely too angsty for my taste by the end of his run.

Don't get me wrong. I loved Ten and David Tennant. I just got burned out, and I cannot say that I'm dissatisfied that the Doctor then morphed into this guy:

Now, I'm not saying that I don't relish when a show/book/whatever pulls off a great emotional moment that brings me to tears.

This one always works:

Ooh! And this one was also very well executed (and apparently everyone who uploaded it doesn't want embed codes given out).

But, overall, I apparently have a relatively low threshold for how long I can take angst before I either want snark or...well.. something! Virtually anything. It seems a little angst goes a long way for me. I don't seem to crave it much. It's not necessarily my preferred alternative. It's like red pepper flakes. It has its uses. I like it... sparingly. You've got to be careful. A little goes a long way. And it's not the very first spice I reach for on the rack. (red pepper flakes are a spice, right?) And, weirdly, if I allow myself to indulge in it too much, I start to feel like I'm becoming this guy:

It can feel a bit inappropriately adolescent writing bad poetry in a hello kitty diary. (Seriously, I wrote some angsty stuff as a kid. I think kids have a sadistic streak).

Other times it makes me feel like turning into this dude:

I also think that it may partially be due to the fact that it's a little too easy to turn angst into emo belly-button-gazing or brooding territory. I'm not a big fan of broody-types. If it's a choice between brooding and snark, I'll choose snark.

Besides, it's not all that much of a challenge to make me cry. Hallmark commercials can do that. Heck, news stories about a lost cat can do it:

It's fairly easy to access my waterworks, so making me cry isn't necessarily a sign of brilliant writing when it can be pure reptile brain and/or emotional manipulation. And once I feel like that, it takes a while to work up a desire for more. For example, by the time I finished "Clash of Kings" (sequel to "Game of Thrones") I felt like I was drowning in angst. I needed a break (I've about reached the point that I think I can now continue on to "Storm of Swords" even though I basically expect that angst to continue. But it's taken me days to recover equilibrium enough to want to continue. And, well, to be honest, to stop being angry over the angst at the end of the book.

Look, I can enjoy angst, just in limited doses because I seem to have a weird reaction to too much angst -- I grow angry. (I think I share that trait with Game of Throne's Arya) Actually, anger is probably not all that weird of a reaction. It's probably a coping mechanism. Anger is closely associated with grief. It's just that particularly with fiction I flip from grief to anger quite easily. I think it may have something to do with something that either Christopher Vogler or Micheal Hague (I get the two of them confused) pointed out in their writing seminar.

The point that one or the other of them made is that you have to give a reader/an audience the happiest ending that you can manage. That's an easily misinterpreted statement because it sounds like insistence on 'a happy ending' and it's not. That's not what he or he meant at all. Their point was that if it's a tragic/sad/angstastic ending, then it had darn well be the best solution to the situation that the characters are in, the only way out because otherwise the audience feels manipulated, like the writer is toying with them. If the angstastic ending is the best possible these characters can hope for in this situation under these circumstances, then go for it. It's the natural, organic outcome of the story. But if the audience can think of other options for those characters in those circumstances, the chances are relatively high that a large percentage of the audience will feel manipulated. In that case, the angst doesn't work particularly well. It runs the risk of making the audience/reader resent the writer.

Personally, I thought that was a good point.

The truly angsty moments in things that I've loved, have been bittersweet moments where I have to admit that the sad and/or tragic circumstance felt inevitable. One of the example of that that springs to mind is the Farscape episode "A Dog with Two Bones". To me that is a good angsty season finale because I can't think of a believable alternative. Given who each of the characters are and what they've been through during that season, I can't reasonably expect the characters to react any other way and it still be those characters.

On the other hand, BtVS's "Chosen" finale with "No you don't, but thanks for saying it" flipped me immediately into fury. My reaction was, "Really, Joss? Really?! That's the way you want to play it? You think that's clever? After all these years, that's what you roll out?" It just made me feel ripped off. (I still don't react well to this scene even after all these years.)

And speaking of, what in the hell was that tonight in the House finale? Was I supposed to think that behavior was okay? Am I supposed to empathize? He could've killed someone. For a hissyfit! Teenaged boys have more emotional maturity than this dude. Guh.

Frankly, sometimes characters need a chill pill and a word from the wise in the form of Cordelia Chase: "Embrace your pain. Spank your inner moppet. Whatever. But get over it." (Yes, Dr. House, I'm looking at you.)

Comments

[wildrider.livejournal.com]

I feel much the same way, about much of this. Tonight's House was an appalling example of it

But Ten? OMG. I adored Army of Ghosts/Doomsday -- it was the perfect amount of angst and trauma, and I expected that the Year of Martha would be Ten healing his wounds and getting on with things. But no... RTD couldn't let go. Ten spent all his time mourning Rose and getting more and more increasingly weepy and annoying. And I LOVED him. I LOVED him, and now I can barely stand watching his episodes. By the end of S4 and the specials, I was so glad to see the backside of Ten I was practically beside myself with joy to see Eleven. And so far, Eleven has been a nice balance of angst and happiness.

(I apparently haven't gotten over it yet...)

[silverusagi]

But if the audience can think of other options for those characters in those circumstances, the chances are relatively high that a large percentage of the audience will feel manipulated

This. I can do angst just fine, as long as it's organic and logical. But when there's just angst for angst's sake (or manufactured angst), I get annoyed.

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

He could've killed someone. For a hissyfit! Teenaged boys have more emotional maturity than this dude.

Is this any different than how House usually acts, though? ;-)

The show hinges on Hugh Laurie's performance. I enjoy it quite a lot and I like many of the supporting characters, but it's so unrealistic that if it wasn't for him, it would be a joke.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Well, usually, he's just nearly killing patients.

Tonight he drove a car full speed into the dining room where four people were eating dinner. It's pure contrivance that Cuddy, her sister, and their dates weren't killed because House's feelings were hurt.

[txvoodoo.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think I'm with you. That's why I lost patience with Ten. I thought it might be menopausal grouchiness, but you're right - show THAT much angst, and I wanna go all Cher in Moonstruck: slap on the face, followed by "Snap outta it!"

I don't even know WHAT to think about house. I asked Scott after I'd seen it:

Me: "Did you watch House yet?"
Scott: "No - but you have a look on your face..."
Me: "I'm pretty sure I saw a fin, a motorcycle, and a leather jacket."

*husband walks away chuckling*

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

Well, usually, he's just nearly killing patients.

Just? Hee. :-)

But yeah, I was pleasantly surprised by how they wrote the House/Cuddy ship, at first. I had been dreading it, but then I kind of liked them together. Until I read something where one of the writers said they had to break up because one of the shows main themes is "people never change." How uplifting, right? At least then I knew what to expect, I guess, and watched the show through that lens.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Hm, Angst...I'm not a big fan either. But it depends. I think angst has to come with character development, then I'm quite fine with it. Dramatic angsty happenings that totally change a character's live are a good culmination point for a story.

What I dislike are teflon epiphanies and angst for angst's sake. It's why I like Spike's arc on Buffy and why Buffy's sometimes annoys me. He changes, she only has the same angst over and over.

The end of Storm of swords imho is an example for really well done angst. It explains so much about the characters and kicks them into new directions, but I could do without the general bleakness and the excess violence in the later books. There needs to be a break occasionally and there never is.

[fenchurche.livejournal.com]

I'm right there with you on the angst thing. I can handle and even like a bit of it, but just can't deal when it gets overwhelming. It's why I think Torchwood's "Children of Earth" was brilliant television that I will never, EVER watch again... and sort of wish I hadn't watched in the first place.

From the reactions I'm seeing on my flist, I'm becoming increasingly glad I quit watching House this season.

[elisi]

The point that one or the other of them made is that you have to give an reader/audience the happiest ending that you can manage. That's an easily misinterpreted statement because it sounds like insistence on 'a happy ending' and it's not. That's not what he or he meant at all. Their point was that if it's a tragic/sad/angstastic ending, that it had darn well be the best solution to the situation that the characters are in, the only way out because otherwise the audience feels manipulated, like the writer is toying with them.
Now this, I love. SO much yes. Re. Ten then part of the problem was the repetition - I recently discussed this with Promethia, and began thinking about it: S2 finale: Ten loses Rose, S3 finale: Ten loses the Master, S4 finale: Ten loses Donna, End of Time: Ten loses himself - and the [final] focus is always on his pain and loneliness... (owlsie made a Ten vid to a I'm So Ronery which I love to distraction (download in this post if yt doesn't work for you).

Actually re. Ten and Eleven, the clues are in the 'names': The Lonely God vs. The Madman with a Box... And it's funny, because even my daughters pick up on it. My 9 y.o. f.ex. has talked about how Ten was always so SAD because he was all alone and Eleven is all: "I don't even have an aunt!"/Amelia: "You're lucky."/Doctor: "I know!" :)

Anyway, too much angst definitely puts people off. (You've seen 'Tenth Doctor: The Musical' I'm sure?) and I'm... sad, I think, that Ten ended up such a ball of pain. I rather wish I didn't have to say 'Poor Ten' whenever I talk about him. (It's either that or rant about how he turned into a self centered jerk... Not that I do like that character trait, but it's... not really endearing overall.)

Joss loved his angst, but he was also, a lot of the time, good at undercutting it. ("I signalled her with my eyes" is one of my fabourite lines ever.) Oh, and speaking of 'happiest ending possible', then I loved Wes/Lilah - the first episode of Angel I ever watched was 'Home' and that scene where he burns her contract is just incredible. It's beautifully tragic, but also inevitable, and so very matter of fact.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Heh. Yeah. I cry at so many things, that I hardly even notice anymore...I just make sure to take a hankie everywhere. However, I might cry and still HATE SOMETHING TO DEATH. I have a friend who is a film critic, and he also cries at everything. Then he turns around and pans things for being sentimental twaddle. He explained that for something to be really good, it has to touch your heart AND your head, which is another way of saying what your writer (whichever it was) said. It has to work intellectually as well as emotionally, or I'm going to want to slap it. After I wring out my hankie, of course. Yes, it's harder to do, but it's worth it.

[nutmeg3.livejournal.com]

As someone else pointed out, I think House jumped ye olde shark tonight. I suppose the best I can say was that House made Wilson get out of the car, so at least there was one person he didn't want to kill. But otherwise...he's now regressed so far into self-centered, self- (and other-) destructve idiocy that I don't see how the writers can save him.

That point whoever made about the happiest possible ending is a really good one. Megan Whalen Turner said something specific but very similar about what Attolia did to Gen in The Queen of Attolia (I'm being vague in case you haven't read it), which was that no matter how hard she tried to come up with something else, every other option ended in death.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

I like that quote about audiences feeling manipulated by angst that wasn't "the best possible ending for the situation" and I get the same anger thing. (I think both of those apply to my reactions to the ending of Donna's arc in Doctor Who and the way that Whedon retconned out all of the hope in the Buffyverse in the S8 comics.)

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

And I agree that Farscape S3 is a great example of justified angst, as is the D'Argo/Chiana/Jothee triangle. S4 on the other hand...

[usedtobeljs]

I read that quote too, cindergal, and it's one of the reasons that I basically detached after the episode that ended with the musical homage. I love Hugh Laurie (and Lisa Edelstein for that matter), but the theme of the show just isn't working for me any more.

Thanks for your thoughts on angst, shipperx. For myself, I always think of John Houseman in the old Smith Barney commercials saying "You've got to EARN it": I want the angst to be set up, organic, earned. And even then it's not my taste. ;-)

[francy-m79.livejournal.com]

I don't know what the House writers were thinking...do they hate their own show?

Anyway, I hope they pull some lame retcon in the season 8 premiere (it was all an allucination or something), because I don't know how they could save the House character otherwise!

[ww1614.livejournal.com]

OMG, yes. That encapsulates exactly how I feel about CoE. Blew my mind, but no, never again.

And also agree about House. I quit, too, and am so glad I did.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Well, not just nearly killed a patient. It's just that House always tortures and nearly kills a patient so complainng about that is about like complaining that the show is airing at all.

And, honestly, I mostly stopped watching House a while ago, but nothing else that was new was on. So I watched. And now I want to bitchslap House into eternity. I kept thinking that it was ludicrous that no one was killed by that, and what if her toddler had been in the room. And then Cuddy wasn't even allowed to react with righteous fury.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

What flipped my anger switch in CoK was cutting off his nose. That was just... excessive. Surely betrayal, near death, more betrayal, etc. was enough.

I had made it through Arya in medieval Auschwitz. And Catelyn thinking all but two of her children are dead. And the burning of Winterfell... and then they cut off Tyrion's nose and it was just. too. damn. much. Really, Martin? Was that actually necessary?

It's taken me a while to want to get to the rest (because, I'm spoiled enough to know what's coming.)

[binsoup.livejournal.com]

at the moment, i'm yet unsure who i want to feed first to that proverbial shark -- Whedon or David Shore. i've been watching House since it started, and it's nihilism has never bothered me because the writers were able to whip up a nice blend of drama, humor, smart dialogue and weird medicine. also the chemistry of the three senior actors (Hugh Laurie, Robert Sean Leonard and Lisa Edelstein) is pure gold. true, the last two seasons of House have been increasingly disastrous, but there was enough good writing in the past to keep me tuned in, waiting for the narrative to recapture it's early brilliance. i was also this way with Buffy/Whedon during seasons 6 and 7. i'm over the rage part my post-House finale reaction. now i'm just sick to my stomach because not only did they make me lose respect for House, they also killed House/Cuddy, and i'm not talking abut the disastrous romance but their 20 plus years of friendship. i'm having flashbacks of Buffy and Buffy/Spike circa S6 without the lingering hope for redemption for House and House/Cuddy.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the nose thing. I thought that was pretty superfluous too. I hope they leave it out in the tv show. It does really change nothing much for Tyrion.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

That was it entirely. They already go out of their way to describe him as being hideous. And he actually dismisses the nose thing (though I can't imagine how). And, honestly, wasn't being a dwarf enough problem from the get go? In a world of violence he has a significant issue to overcome. Plus, he's a dwarf in a place without knee or hip surgery and both are associated with dwarfism and are realistic issues. Did we honestly need chopping off his nose?

(And I seriously hope that's such a make-up/effects problem that the show bypasses it because it is superfluous).

[sp23.livejournal.com]

As I posted in my reply to you in my post about GoT, an overabundance of angst doesn't so much cause me to cry (although it can and does) as it fills my heart with so much pain that I eventually can't take anymore. It's what I fear about GoT because I've only watched two episodes, and the ending of the second episode left me with that feeling of pain as well as absolute rage and hatred.

But I love a good dose of angst when it works, and the Sun/Jin clip and the Olivia/Peter clip are great examples. In fact, with Olivia it touched me as being so very true because when Olivia first came back, my skin crawled for her at the thought of sleeping on the sheets that Fauxlivia had used to sleep with Peter and wearing the clothes that had been on Fauxlivia's body. The scene where she ripped the sheets from her bed and the clothes from her closet was perfect and true, exactly as your writer discussed.

I'm afraid I gave up on House years ago because I came to find the character vile on too many levels to want to spend any time with him.

[rahirah]

I seem to have a weird reaction to too much angst -- I grow angry.

YES, THIS, WITH SPRINKLES ON IT.

I think that's why so many of the early academic books on fanfic pissed me the hell off, because they concluded that the whole reason that women write and read fanfic was so they could experience catharsis from their oppressed lives via hurt-comfort stories, specifically slashy hurt-comfort stories. (Couldn't possibly be that women have as many and varied things driving their creative output as men do, oh, no.) And that does not describe my fanfic experience at all. Let the hurt or angst get too extreme, and I get mad.

I've sometimes wondered if the getting-mad thing is a response which we've been culturally conditioned to read as 'masculine,' and something women aren't supposed to experience. Hurt a guy, and his fantasy is supposed to be to get revenge. Hurt a woman, and her fantasy is supposed to be to be comforted/saved by someone else. But I don't think that it's all as neatly divided by gender as that.

[rahirah]

Seriously. I don't know if it's the writers, or that Lisa Edelstein can't do any expression other than "I'm about to cry now." But I would kill to see her kick House in the balls right about now. Several times, wearing steel-toed boots.

[rahirah]

Well, CEO was one of those shows where the angst was largely manyfactured, to my mind. If you put characters in a situation hand have them consistently do the stupidest, most ineffective thing possible, it's no particular surprise when disaster results.