I think I'm missing an angst gene...

[shipperx]

Angst. Shows love it. Season finales love it. Whedon loved it. GRRMartin loooooves it.

Myself? Not a huge fan.

I seem to have limited patience for it.

While quite well made and well acted, Kate Winslet's movie "Jude" is still the movie that I most wish that I had never watched.

And angst is one of the reasons that in retrospect, I lost some of my love for the 10th Doctor. He got entirely too angsty for my taste by the end of his run.

Don't get me wrong. I loved Ten and David Tennant. I just got burned out, and I cannot say that I'm dissatisfied that the Doctor then morphed into this guy:

Now, I'm not saying that I don't relish when a show/book/whatever pulls off a great emotional moment that brings me to tears.

This one always works:

Ooh! And this one was also very well executed (and apparently everyone who uploaded it doesn't want embed codes given out).

But, overall, I apparently have a relatively low threshold for how long I can take angst before I either want snark or...well.. something! Virtually anything. It seems a little angst goes a long way for me. I don't seem to crave it much. It's not necessarily my preferred alternative. It's like red pepper flakes. It has its uses. I like it... sparingly. You've got to be careful. A little goes a long way. And it's not the very first spice I reach for on the rack. (red pepper flakes are a spice, right?) And, weirdly, if I allow myself to indulge in it too much, I start to feel like I'm becoming this guy:

It can feel a bit inappropriately adolescent writing bad poetry in a hello kitty diary. (Seriously, I wrote some angsty stuff as a kid. I think kids have a sadistic streak).

Other times it makes me feel like turning into this dude:

I also think that it may partially be due to the fact that it's a little too easy to turn angst into emo belly-button-gazing or brooding territory. I'm not a big fan of broody-types. If it's a choice between brooding and snark, I'll choose snark.

Besides, it's not all that much of a challenge to make me cry. Hallmark commercials can do that. Heck, news stories about a lost cat can do it:

It's fairly easy to access my waterworks, so making me cry isn't necessarily a sign of brilliant writing when it can be pure reptile brain and/or emotional manipulation. And once I feel like that, it takes a while to work up a desire for more. For example, by the time I finished "Clash of Kings" (sequel to "Game of Thrones") I felt like I was drowning in angst. I needed a break (I've about reached the point that I think I can now continue on to "Storm of Swords" even though I basically expect that angst to continue. But it's taken me days to recover equilibrium enough to want to continue. And, well, to be honest, to stop being angry over the angst at the end of the book.

Look, I can enjoy angst, just in limited doses because I seem to have a weird reaction to too much angst -- I grow angry. (I think I share that trait with Game of Throne's Arya) Actually, anger is probably not all that weird of a reaction. It's probably a coping mechanism. Anger is closely associated with grief. It's just that particularly with fiction I flip from grief to anger quite easily. I think it may have something to do with something that either Christopher Vogler or Micheal Hague (I get the two of them confused) pointed out in their writing seminar.

The point that one or the other of them made is that you have to give a reader/an audience the happiest ending that you can manage. That's an easily misinterpreted statement because it sounds like insistence on 'a happy ending' and it's not. That's not what he or he meant at all. Their point was that if it's a tragic/sad/angstastic ending, then it had darn well be the best solution to the situation that the characters are in, the only way out because otherwise the audience feels manipulated, like the writer is toying with them. If the angstastic ending is the best possible these characters can hope for in this situation under these circumstances, then go for it. It's the natural, organic outcome of the story. But if the audience can think of other options for those characters in those circumstances, the chances are relatively high that a large percentage of the audience will feel manipulated. In that case, the angst doesn't work particularly well. It runs the risk of making the audience/reader resent the writer.

Personally, I thought that was a good point.

The truly angsty moments in things that I've loved, have been bittersweet moments where I have to admit that the sad and/or tragic circumstance felt inevitable. One of the example of that that springs to mind is the Farscape episode "A Dog with Two Bones". To me that is a good angsty season finale because I can't think of a believable alternative. Given who each of the characters are and what they've been through during that season, I can't reasonably expect the characters to react any other way and it still be those characters.

On the other hand, BtVS's "Chosen" finale with "No you don't, but thanks for saying it" flipped me immediately into fury. My reaction was, "Really, Joss? Really?! That's the way you want to play it? You think that's clever? After all these years, that's what you roll out?" It just made me feel ripped off. (I still don't react well to this scene even after all these years.)

And speaking of, what in the hell was that tonight in the House finale? Was I supposed to think that behavior was okay? Am I supposed to empathize? He could've killed someone. For a hissyfit! Teenaged boys have more emotional maturity than this dude. Guh.

Frankly, sometimes characters need a chill pill and a word from the wise in the form of Cordelia Chase: "Embrace your pain. Spank your inner moppet. Whatever. But get over it." (Yes, Dr. House, I'm looking at you.)

Comments

[wildrider.livejournal.com]

I feel much the same way, about much of this. Tonight's House was an appalling example of it

But Ten? OMG. I adored Army of Ghosts/Doomsday -- it was the perfect amount of angst and trauma, and I expected that the Year of Martha would be Ten healing his wounds and getting on with things. But no... RTD couldn't let go. Ten spent all his time mourning Rose and getting more and more increasingly weepy and annoying. And I LOVED him. I LOVED him, and now I can barely stand watching his episodes. By the end of S4 and the specials, I was so glad to see the backside of Ten I was practically beside myself with joy to see Eleven. And so far, Eleven has been a nice balance of angst and happiness.

(I apparently haven't gotten over it yet...)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I know! It's sad. Because for a good long part of his run, I loved Ten. But by the end of the specials that just hammered his man pain so hard, not when I look back I sort of roll my eyes. It just doesn't seem right.

And Eleven totally got me in the Gaimen episode where he looked so damn hopeful about there being other timelords. That look of hope just killed me.

[silverusagi]

But if the audience can think of other options for those characters in those circumstances, the chances are relatively high that a large percentage of the audience will feel manipulated

This. I can do angst just fine, as long as it's organic and logical. But when there's just angst for angst's sake (or manufactured angst), I get annoyed.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I just hate it when it feels added on, like the author wanted the gratification of making the audience 'feel' something... and it's great when it's earned. But, dude, just because you can make the audience angst by killing a kitten doesn't make killing a kitten organic to the plot, even if it does pack an emotional wallop of making the audience cry.

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

He could've killed someone. For a hissyfit! Teenaged boys have more emotional maturity than this dude.

Is this any different than how House usually acts, though? ;-)

The show hinges on Hugh Laurie's performance. I enjoy it quite a lot and I like many of the supporting characters, but it's so unrealistic that if it wasn't for him, it would be a joke.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Well, usually, he's just nearly killing patients.

Tonight he drove a car full speed into the dining room where four people were eating dinner. It's pure contrivance that Cuddy, her sister, and their dates weren't killed because House's feelings were hurt.

[txvoodoo.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think I'm with you. That's why I lost patience with Ten. I thought it might be menopausal grouchiness, but you're right - show THAT much angst, and I wanna go all Cher in Moonstruck: slap on the face, followed by "Snap outta it!"

I don't even know WHAT to think about house. I asked Scott after I'd seen it:

Me: "Did you watch House yet?"
Scott: "No - but you have a look on your face..."
Me: "I'm pretty sure I saw a fin, a motorcycle, and a leather jacket."

*husband walks away chuckling*

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I'm sure the jaws theme was playing somewhere...

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Hm, Angst...I'm not a big fan either. But it depends. I think angst has to come with character development, then I'm quite fine with it. Dramatic angsty happenings that totally change a character's live are a good culmination point for a story.

What I dislike are teflon epiphanies and angst for angst's sake. It's why I like Spike's arc on Buffy and why Buffy's sometimes annoys me. He changes, she only has the same angst over and over.

The end of Storm of swords imho is an example for really well done angst. It explains so much about the characters and kicks them into new directions, but I could do without the general bleakness and the excess violence in the later books. There needs to be a break occasionally and there never is.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

What flipped my anger switch in CoK was cutting off his nose. That was just... excessive. Surely betrayal, near death, more betrayal, etc. was enough.

I had made it through Arya in medieval Auschwitz. And Catelyn thinking all but two of her children are dead. And the burning of Winterfell... and then they cut off Tyrion's nose and it was just. too. damn. much. Really, Martin? Was that actually necessary?

It's taken me a while to want to get to the rest (because, I'm spoiled enough to know what's coming.)

[fenchurche.livejournal.com]

I'm right there with you on the angst thing. I can handle and even like a bit of it, but just can't deal when it gets overwhelming. It's why I think Torchwood's "Children of Earth" was brilliant television that I will never, EVER watch again... and sort of wish I hadn't watched in the first place.

From the reactions I'm seeing on my flist, I'm becoming increasingly glad I quit watching House this season.

[ww1614.livejournal.com]

OMG, yes. That encapsulates exactly how I feel about CoE. Blew my mind, but no, never again.

And also agree about House. I quit, too, and am so glad I did.

[rahirah]

Well, CEO was one of those shows where the angst was largely manyfactured, to my mind. If you put characters in a situation hand have them consistently do the stupidest, most ineffective thing possible, it's no particular surprise when disaster results.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I had COE sitting on my DVR for a year and never managed the energy to want to go there (since I'm spoiled). Then Charter did something one day, erasing my DVR and relieved me of the responsibility of having it sitting there unwatched.

[elisi]

The point that one or the other of them made is that you have to give an reader/audience the happiest ending that you can manage. That's an easily misinterpreted statement because it sounds like insistence on 'a happy ending' and it's not. That's not what he or he meant at all. Their point was that if it's a tragic/sad/angstastic ending, that it had darn well be the best solution to the situation that the characters are in, the only way out because otherwise the audience feels manipulated, like the writer is toying with them.
Now this, I love. SO much yes. Re. Ten then part of the problem was the repetition - I recently discussed this with Promethia, and began thinking about it: S2 finale: Ten loses Rose, S3 finale: Ten loses the Master, S4 finale: Ten loses Donna, End of Time: Ten loses himself - and the [final] focus is always on his pain and loneliness... (owlsie made a Ten vid to a I'm So Ronery which I love to distraction (download in this post if yt doesn't work for you).

Actually re. Ten and Eleven, the clues are in the 'names': The Lonely God vs. The Madman with a Box... And it's funny, because even my daughters pick up on it. My 9 y.o. f.ex. has talked about how Ten was always so SAD because he was all alone and Eleven is all: "I don't even have an aunt!"/Amelia: "You're lucky."/Doctor: "I know!" :)

Anyway, too much angst definitely puts people off. (You've seen 'Tenth Doctor: The Musical' I'm sure?) and I'm... sad, I think, that Ten ended up such a ball of pain. I rather wish I didn't have to say 'Poor Ten' whenever I talk about him. (It's either that or rant about how he turned into a self centered jerk... Not that I do like that character trait, but it's... not really endearing overall.)

Joss loved his angst, but he was also, a lot of the time, good at undercutting it. ("I signalled her with my eyes" is one of my fabourite lines ever.) Oh, and speaking of 'happiest ending possible', then I loved Wes/Lilah - the first episode of Angel I ever watched was 'Home' and that scene where he burns her contract is just incredible. It's beautifully tragic, but also inevitable, and so very matter of fact.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

It makes me sad because I really loved Ten. But, the problem is they took Ten to such an angsty treadmill by the end that I find myself sighing (not in a good way) when I see the eps on re-run. They stole the fun!

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Heh. Yeah. I cry at so many things, that I hardly even notice anymore...I just make sure to take a hankie everywhere. However, I might cry and still HATE SOMETHING TO DEATH. I have a friend who is a film critic, and he also cries at everything. Then he turns around and pans things for being sentimental twaddle. He explained that for something to be really good, it has to touch your heart AND your head, which is another way of saying what your writer (whichever it was) said. It has to work intellectually as well as emotionally, or I'm going to want to slap it. After I wring out my hankie, of course. Yes, it's harder to do, but it's worth it.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

However, I might cry and still HATE SOMETHING TO DEATH

This! Exactly. Just because something guts me when reading/viewing doesn't mean that I'll look back in retrospect fondly. I may look back and go... gee, that was manipulative.

[nutmeg3.livejournal.com]

As someone else pointed out, I think House jumped ye olde shark tonight. I suppose the best I can say was that House made Wilson get out of the car, so at least there was one person he didn't want to kill. But otherwise...he's now regressed so far into self-centered, self- (and other-) destructve idiocy that I don't see how the writers can save him.

That point whoever made about the happiest possible ending is a really good one. Megan Whalen Turner said something specific but very similar about what Attolia did to Gen in The Queen of Attolia (I'm being vague in case you haven't read it), which was that no matter how hard she tried to come up with something else, every other option ended in death.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

The House episode was just. so. ridiculous!

And I liked the 'happiest ending possible' the moment I heard it explained. There are things that really do demand tragic endings if the work is to hold together. In those cases it's absolutely appropriate. However if it's tacked on because someone wants to shock or 'pack an easy emotional wallop' that isn't actually earned by the plot, well that's just cheap. So even in deep angst/death/poignant ending, it still needs to be the best possible option for the characters, the story, and the situation involved.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

I like that quote about audiences feeling manipulated by angst that wasn't "the best possible ending for the situation" and I get the same anger thing. (I think both of those apply to my reactions to the ending of Donna's arc in Doctor Who and the way that Whedon retconned out all of the hope in the Buffyverse in the S8 comics.)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Donna's situation irked because it was about how it hurt the Doctor and not about Donna. If you're going to do something horrific to a major character, at least have the decency to have it actually be about them in some way.

Season 8 was just dumb in too many ways.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

And I agree that Farscape S3 is a great example of justified angst, as is the D'Argo/Chiana/Jothee triangle. S4 on the other hand...

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

The thing I love about Farscape Season 3 is that the tragedy of it is that none of them could choose any other way and still be them. The choices weren't arbitrary. They were generated by the characters and their experiences to that point in time.

[francy-m79.livejournal.com]

I don't know what the House writers were thinking...do they hate their own show?

Anyway, I hope they pull some lame retcon in the season 8 premiere (it was all an allucination or something), because I don't know how they could save the House character otherwise!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Reading the interviews of the writers over on the TWOP thread, I gather they think that it was just a hilarious prank and House getting catharsis.

Um... yeah. Talk about mis-reading how something is going to come across.

[binsoup.livejournal.com]

at the moment, i'm yet unsure who i want to feed first to that proverbial shark -- Whedon or David Shore. i've been watching House since it started, and it's nihilism has never bothered me because the writers were able to whip up a nice blend of drama, humor, smart dialogue and weird medicine. also the chemistry of the three senior actors (Hugh Laurie, Robert Sean Leonard and Lisa Edelstein) is pure gold. true, the last two seasons of House have been increasingly disastrous, but there was enough good writing in the past to keep me tuned in, waiting for the narrative to recapture it's early brilliance. i was also this way with Buffy/Whedon during seasons 6 and 7. i'm over the rage part my post-House finale reaction. now i'm just sick to my stomach because not only did they make me lose respect for House, they also killed House/Cuddy, and i'm not talking abut the disastrous romance but their 20 plus years of friendship. i'm having flashbacks of Buffy and Buffy/Spike circa S6 without the lingering hope for redemption for House and House/Cuddy.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I think that both situations have liberal doses of the writers being so wrapped up in their protagonists that they lost sight of how the protagonist's actions look to everyone else.

[sp23.livejournal.com]

As I posted in my reply to you in my post about GoT, an overabundance of angst doesn't so much cause me to cry (although it can and does) as it fills my heart with so much pain that I eventually can't take anymore. It's what I fear about GoT because I've only watched two episodes, and the ending of the second episode left me with that feeling of pain as well as absolute rage and hatred.

But I love a good dose of angst when it works, and the Sun/Jin clip and the Olivia/Peter clip are great examples. In fact, with Olivia it touched me as being so very true because when Olivia first came back, my skin crawled for her at the thought of sleeping on the sheets that Fauxlivia had used to sleep with Peter and wearing the clothes that had been on Fauxlivia's body. The scene where she ripped the sheets from her bed and the clothes from her closet was perfect and true, exactly as your writer discussed.

I'm afraid I gave up on House years ago because I came to find the character vile on too many levels to want to spend any time with him.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

The Peter/Olivia scene totally works for me because both Peter and Olivia were trying soo hard to understand. To be level-headed about it. To be fair. And those effort is what highlights the pain. As hard as they're clearly trying it still hurts too damn much. Had they had a screaming fight it wouldn't have been as powerful. What worked is that they were both so good about it that our hearts went out to them.

I gave up on House ages ago as well, but nothing else was on the other night.

[rahirah]

I seem to have a weird reaction to too much angst -- I grow angry.

YES, THIS, WITH SPRINKLES ON IT.

I think that's why so many of the early academic books on fanfic pissed me the hell off, because they concluded that the whole reason that women write and read fanfic was so they could experience catharsis from their oppressed lives via hurt-comfort stories, specifically slashy hurt-comfort stories. (Couldn't possibly be that women have as many and varied things driving their creative output as men do, oh, no.) And that does not describe my fanfic experience at all. Let the hurt or angst get too extreme, and I get mad.

I've sometimes wondered if the getting-mad thing is a response which we've been culturally conditioned to read as 'masculine,' and something women aren't supposed to experience. Hurt a guy, and his fantasy is supposed to be to get revenge. Hurt a woman, and her fantasy is supposed to be to be comforted/saved by someone else. But I don't think that it's all as neatly divided by gender as that.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Word to everything cited above. I have a tendency to get very snarky. (As my Vamp Diary posts most likely demonstrate.)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

LOL! On the House finale. While I understand why he did it - I found it so cringe-worthy that I couldn't watch it and fast-forwarded, only to make myself rewind to watch in real time.
Really hated that finale. But it makes sense from a character perspective - a character who can not handle pain, anger or emotion in a reasonable or mature manner. In short Sherlock as a jerk.

On Game of Thrones, Clash of Kings and Storm? Sigh. Why do you think I took a five year break between Clash and Storm? After reading Game and Clash more or less back to back and getting overwhelmed. Storm by the way is actually more angst ridden and more gory and more blood-soaked then the first two - just a warning. (Also Tyrion's speech in this week's episode of Game, I'm pretty sure was taken from Storm, so Espenson did not make it up entirely. I think he says it directly to Cersei and Joffrey in regards to something completely different. ) After I finished Storm - I read The Hunger Games triology, which oddly is a lot more positive, far less angsty, not as violent, and has more humor (which says something, not sure what, but something). Then I just wanted light reading and comedy, so what do I do, try to pick up Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, and ended up reading Elizabeth Peters instead.


On Chosen? Agreed. I did not cry during Chosen. And yes, I felt cheated - I understand why Whedon did it - he was going for that Empire Strikes Back moment, but he built it up badly and as a result it did not quite work. Instead of being the big romantic finish he desired, it fell flat and resulted in a frustrating cliff-hanger after he brought Spike back. Poorly constructed and written - demonstrating that Whedon is an uneven writer. We're sort of on the same page regarding Whedon, Chosen, and the S8 comic books.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I think Joss had his idea of "NYDBTFSI" from the moment the season started. He knew his end. Where Joss falls sometimes falls down is connecting the dots for how do you get there from here. And I think what ultimately short-circuited it and blew the breaker switch was Angel.

If Chosen had the lady given Buffy both the scythe and the amulet... had Buffy not gone from broken hearted to giggling like a fifteen year old with Angel and snogging him and being all "What? There were no tongues" about it, things might have played different. The problem in the end was that the moment simply did not work, because by that point it wasn't simply a matter of Spike not believing. I wasn't sure it was believable either, and for that moment to really work, we really needed the audience to believe. Unfortunately, Buffy had been so bi-polar with how she was with Spike and how she was with Angel it undercut his ending.

I also always thought that where Whedon misused his assets, that if he had DB for the finale, he really, really should have had the First inhabit Angelus so that Buffy faced down her past, doing something about the moment earlier in the season where she said "I'll never love anything in this life, {the way I loved something when I was sixteen}". Buffy faving down Angelus and metaphorically the trauma that emotionally stranded her in adolescence, it would have fit the necessity of the ending of the series of allowing her to finally move the hell on. *sigh* So many wasted opportunities.

(And yeah, Hunger Games does come off as being less angsty than A Song of Ice and Fire, which considering that HG is a dystopian tale of children in a fight to the death gives an idea of just how dark the Martin books actually are. I found myself thinking this morning that the Martin books version of the fantasy middle ages is actually darker than Connie Willis's Doomsday Book middle ages and in that one, everyone died of the black plague!

[bluemage55.livejournal.com]

And speaking of, what in the hell was that tonight in the House finale? Was I supposed to think that behavior was okay? Am I supposed to empathize? He could've killed someone. For a hissyfit! Teenaged boys have more emotional maturity than this dude. Guh.

I think it was intended to be funny. -_- To actually recieve it that way though, requires identifying with House's grudge against Cuddy further than most people would (not to mention having little concern for Rachel).

Frankly, sometimes characters need a chill pill and a word from the wise in the form of Cordelia Chase: "Embrace your pain. Spank your inner moppet. Whatever. But get over it." (Yes, Dr. House, I'm looking at you.)

Well, that sort of is what he did, if Wilson's comment that House will be at a bar that fits his mood carries any weight. It's just too bad that his way of getting over it involved half a season of angst followed by reckless endangerment of four adults and a child.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I think it was intended to be funny.

I think they did too... which doesn't make the finale any less disturbing.