Stuff...

[shipperx]

* Short week next week because I'm taking a vacation day even before Thanksgiving (I have too much vacation time to roll over for next year, and we have tight deadlines at work so I can't take a week off any time between now and Christmas, so I'm slipping a couple of 'one extra day off' during the holidays. So, I'm off by Tuesday afternoon! Woot!


* Loved Modern Family this week.

* Enjoyed Community (Boo on NBC for shelving the show indefinitely)

* Revenge was okay, but not quite as fun this week.

* Mom and Dad gave me a Kindle Fire for my birthday! (But it hasn't arrived yet).

* Sounds like the Prospect Park thing picking up "One Life to Live" post ABC cancellation has fallen through. I have to admit that after the week of glee over the Identical-Non-Identical-Savant Twin whackfest, they totally lost momentum. On the bright side, there's a rumor that Rapey Nun-roller might yet be killed off (I know, I know. Best not to get my hopes up. Higher chances of the character I like being killed in a storm of bullets than Rapey Nun-roller)! But I don't even care if it's not true. I'm going to pretend that it's true. I want that repulsive character to die and then (borrowing from TWOP) I want zombie Asa to shit on Rapey's face. (What? I hate the character, okay! :) And since I know that it can't happen, I'm just going to fanwank that it does.

* Had to laugh at the interview of that guy writing the "Angel and Faith" comic saying that he thought that Angel had already redeemed his actions in Season 8. Bwha! So, er... yeah. He moped for a few weeks. After a year(s) long campaign of terror and Slayer murder where girls and bystanders died by the hundreds he's 'redeemed' by feeling bad while... continuing to do the same high handed wrong-headed stuff! Apparently 'learning anything from his mistakes' isn't a required for him to be 'all better now.' LOL! Way to never overcome low expectations, guys!

* Peeked over at that forum and... sheesh! The BtVS pregnancy rape debate is still going on..

Still.

Again...yeesh.

A few days ago I wrote a really long screed about it to post on LJ. Then got tired, didn't finish, and now I have no desire to go back and finish or post it. Ah well.

Okay, I will go on about one part of it. I think I've figured out (one of) the reasons I really hate the concept that the comics might in some brainfart decide to make Buffy pregnant. I can go into all sorts of reasons why I think it's dumb and detrimental (but then so was Season 8), but I think what actually tends to trigger all sorts of "yeech!" in me is related to that Whedon Rant I read a couple of months back concerning the Joss-planned rape of Inara on Firefly (and I didn't even like Firefly enough to even keep up with the plot).

Anyway the Inara rape rant was about some planned story where Mal was going to as per usual for him call Inara a 'whore'. Then she was going to be gang-raped. And then Mal was going to kneel and kiss her hand... because she was a lady. (And this wasn't just an urban legend. There was a link to the podcast where Tim Minear explained the whole thing (I'm resurrecting my "Yeesh!" for this). The blogger's rant was to question what made Inara 'not a whore' in the process of the episode, and the answer is basically, when she chooses to have sex, she's a 'whore' , when she's raped -- when she's robbed of her agency, well then, she didn't 'ask' for it so she's a 'lady.'

(Of course Joss then followed up Firefly with Dollhouse where women's (and granted, mens?) minds were wiped as they were used for prostitution (And yeah, I remember that interview Joss gave where he said that one of the things he think would've helped Dollhouse was yet more prostitution).

So then we follow that up with the comics, where Buffy throws in and throws down with Twilight... but it's not actually her fault (and nothing that happened was her fault) because she was glowhypnoled (but not so glowhypnoled that she was raped. See, glowhypnol is the Shrodinger's Cat of comic drugs. It both is and is not an influence so that she both is and is not acting on her own agency! Neat,huh?)

Point? Point? What was my point? Oh, yeah, so Buffy's blackout drunk whatever (and the 'if she had sex during a blackout was she capable of consent?' debate) leading to a pregnancy. Why does it bother me so much? Because something about it tweaks my suspicion that if they make her pregnant because of it, back to the Inara situation where it's about the lack of agency.

I mean, pregnancy has an unhappy history in the Whedonverse. It's usually the mom being overtaken by some scary thing out of her control. Then she births it and she dies. (See: Chase, Cordela. Also see, Darla.) Or it can go the metaphor route, see Fred/Illyria or, even more icky fun the 'birthing' a sentient universe with Mommy Issues that want to destroy the world).

The whole 'blackout drunk don't know what happened' seems to be knocking her up (if it happens) but making sure it's not her choice. Hell, we aren't even sure the sex is her choice. The blackout bar makes it practically an immaculate conception. Which, again fits right on in with the previous "It's not in her control!"

I've argued again and again (in the debate that won't end, and I'm not diving into that one again) that's what's really bothersome here is that if Joss Whedon has some annoying brainfart about wanting Buffy pregnant, there are a ton of ways to bring that about and it happening while she has agency. This set up lacks agency. And I suspect (if it happens) that isn't a flaw in the design so much as a feature.

It's like Joss sees babies as aliens. And this is more about what is done to Buffy than anything Buffy is doing herself

Holy cow, what does Joss have against agency in his characters? His form of 'vampirism' is the only one I can think of that actually has some weird-ass mythology about demons coming in and replacing the human. Every other form of vampire story I've ever read doesn't actually pretend that it's somehow some one else. So he sets up vampires as a lack of agency. He has Angel 'go evil' and it always turn into a lack of agency (be it Twi-possession or Angelus). He has First brain-raping Spike. He has the AR. He has the Inara thing. Oh, and the River thing. And then there's just about every damn thing in Dollhouse.

So it's another thing in a very long line of things where (IF THIS BRAINFART COMES ABOUT) it again now hinges on a lack of agency on the part of the protagonist.

What part of "protagonist" does Joss not get? Protagonists are actually supposed to occasionally be proactive and not just passive flakes of stupidity that have things done to them where they only occasionally react.

So, again... yeesh!

Comments

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Christos Gage: For me, I think he is redeemable. Nothing will ever erase his wrongs, but if he dedicates himself to doing the right thing long enough, I think the scales can be balanced . . . they probably already have been.



Yeah. I've stopped reading the professional stuff. I just don't have time for it. And it just detracts from my enjoyment of the story and even my engagement with the story. I don't want to be watching the commentary as I'm watching the episode for the first time.

---

I'm just so exhausted by this fan theory. My brain will probably go 'slodey if she's not pregnant and didn't even have sex. And on that day I'll say "thanks, fandom, thanks ever so."

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah

I know, right?

If Angel had even learned something from it and wasn't doing the exact same wrongheaded, high handed stuff you might have some argument that may support it in that at least he wouldn't make the same mistakes.

As it is it's just a magic handwave of "whatevs!" Er... guys... that's not 'redemption.' That's enabling!

I've already threatened that if she's pregnant and it becomes apocalyptic that I'm going to laugh in some faces. So I'm guessing you should have tabs on the schadenfreude if she isn't pregnant and didn't have sex. :D

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

The funny thing is (well, depending on mood) that this (end of season 8, beginning of season 9) is the first time i experience all the commentary and fandom discussions.

And it is a bit tiresome. And detracting from what i always enjoyed about the show(s).

I wonder - if i had had all that commentary/discussion floating my brain when the show aired - would i have become a fan?

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Honestly, this is the sort of stuff that feels like it's killing joy. I just have to push it away. I know it's not why I'm a fan. Indeed, I'm a fan in spite of this sort of thing.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I have a significant chunk of the forum on ignore at this point.

[quinara]

I think it's difference of pacing, because there was all this discussion, if not more, but the thing about the show was that every week you had 42 minutes of material to discuss - and then a week later you had 42 more. It wasn't a case of having a month to discuss a few lines of coy dialogue. People still discussed the TV guide blurbs ferociously when they appeared, but new material changed the discussion on a fairly rapid basis. And it wasn't just the blurbs and the trailers, because potentially spoilery material was coming from a load of different directions than just the creators.

The only vague equivalent I can think of to the comics situation were the hiatuses, but then, with the nature of hiatuses and sweeps and finales, there was always something pretty meaty and concrete to get at for months at a time. And of course the nitty gritty discussion was interspersed by what seemed like massive outpourings of fic and art and metas taking a longer view about character arcs, which still seemed to exist to most people. There was a lot more out there, basically, but it turned over a lot quicker - and there was nearly always more than one 'big issue' to discuss, which made being a fan pretty fun. Most of the time.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Character arcs? What are these character arcs you speak of? They sound like they'd require like 'continuity' and stuff, so I'm thinking these 'character arc' things are urban legends. >;)

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

The debate on it all isn't really indicative of what it was like on the show. For one, there are a lot more people and a lot more boards instead of the 3 or 4 the comics have. Plus newsgroups, etc. The shows offered more story a lot faster as quinara mentioned, plus they were, you know, good.

I suspect the focus on the pregnancy possibility has gone on so long because there isn't much else to talk about. The story and characters are paper thin.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

The comics are bloody slow and there's very little in each one. No wonder speculation is more interesting.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Have to agree with others. There were more areas to go then so you could sort of tailor fit what part of fandom you wanted to deal with and the show week by week changes allowed for more turnover in topics (except for summers, but in those instances, fanfic provided). BtVS is more of a backwater these days and backwaters can become stagnant.

[silverusagi]

Holy cow, what does Joss have against agency in his characters?

Joss stories: where agency goes to die.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

:stamps: But why??? :pouts:

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I stopped reading pregnancy and free agency debates on BuffyForums because they're tiresome and, ultimately, have nothing to do with the story so far (we don't know if Buffy had sex at all).

As to Firefly... I remember reading about that unrealised episode back in 2003-2004. And I remember thinking, back then, that it was a great idea. I didn't interpret it as a sign that Inara has become a lady because she was raped. To me, Mal's gesture was his way of saying "Forgive me for insulting you. I'm an idiot who loves you so much it hurts to think about you being with somebody else - willingly or not. You're the best woman I know. I love you". I was very surprised that many people interpreted Mal's gesture the way you describe here.

[rahirah]

I think the squick lies in that Inara is the one who's raped, but the point of the story is all about poor Mal feeling bad. A woman is sexually violated in order to give a man angst. Yuck.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

It's hard to speculate about the storylines that were't realised, but, given what we know about Joss, I'm sure that Mal would have fallen hard, sooner or later, and most likely the catalyst of his fall would've been his attitude to women, especially Inara. I just can't get rid of the thought that Caleb on BtVS was kind of a projection of Mal's unrealised journey.

As to Inara servicing Mal's story - he's the protagonist. On BtVS male characters service Buffy's journey, because she's the protagonist.

Sorry I need an edit button

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Not to quibble, okay maybe to quibble. But in regards to the rape storylines on Buffy and Firefly and to a degree Dollhouse...all were about the male reaction to rape not the female or the rape victim regardless of the protagonist. That was the problem people had with both the AR scene and to a large degree with Dollhouse, as well as this Firefly episode. It's not an isolated problem - with Whedon, this is true of a vast majority of the stories told on American television and even books. It's the same problem many people have with Stieg Larrson's Girl with the Dragon Tattoo series - which granted did show it from the female perspective, was still largely about how men handle rape and why they do it, not about women.

In the AR scene in Buffy - we are shown how Spike and Xander handle it. More so than Buffy herself. Notably, Willow is never shown reacting to it or being consulted. We only see Xander and Giles, and to a smaller degree Dawn (and again mainly through Xander and Spike's eyes). The AR scene happens so that Spike will be motivated to get a soul, so that Spike will examine himself and see that he is a monster. So that Spike will take the steps to become redeemed. Spike - the supporting character. Not the lead. That scene was all about Spike. Buffy was attacked to further Spike's arc, not hers. And the story that came after? Also mainly about Spike. It was a story about how men handle rape, not women. Which offended many people. Same situation with Firefly - in that story, Inara much like Buffy, gets attacked, to further a male arc - Malcolm Reynolds. And in Dollhouse - we see the rape of S (Sierra? Sienna? Can't remember her name) mainly through Topher's eyes and how he enables it and his realization that he has done so - this is clearly the male writer struggling with his own fears regarding the same thing.

The point is - regardless of the gender of the protagonist, the rape story is told mainly from the male or non-victim's pov. While men can be raped, and many are, women are the main target - and by telling the tale mainly through the male lense or pov, women are to a degree objectified and rendered unimportant or a plot device. Oh poor me, my girlfriend was raped or oh poor me, I raped or tried to rape my girlfriend..I can't live with myself. When what is often not explored in much depth is the opposite view.
And when it is - it is again through a male lense - see Girl with Dragon Tattoo or Dollhouse as examples.

Re: Sorry I need an edit button

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I agree with you, but I still don't think that, in this particular case (Firefly) telling Mal's story from male's POV would've been wrong.

I would love to see Joss making a show about a geisha and telling the story from her POV - but I doubt that such a show could be produced in today's showbiz.

As to AR - to me, it was ultimately about both Buffy and Spike. About them going through hell and changing themselves in the process. About Buffy overcoming her depression and accepting her new responsibilities. About Spike confronting his demons.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Bingo.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

But what changes in the episode is that she is 'forced' and has lack of agency. And it's so that Mal can 'learn a lesson.'

It's problematic.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I agree that it could be problematic - but I think a lot depended on details, on execution. We know only the set-up and the outcome. It could be a story about Inara empowerment as well. Wasn't she supposed to kill all her rapists?

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah. With her va-jay-jay.

Sometimes with Joss, I can't even...

[usedtobeljs]

I'm so sad about the Community hiatus, and I was so surprised/pleased by Thursday's ep -- I'd have thought a Dean-centric ep would have been awful, but damn, Jim Rash is amazing.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Between Community and Cougar Town on hiatus, my opinion of TV execs isn't all that high.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

already redeemed his actions in Season 8

But...but...his actions weren't his actions! It's up to the reader to decide whether or not he was influenced in whatever he did and just how influenced he was! Gah. Just more childish storytelling. To its credit, at least A&F is interesting.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

It's like they didn't think about what Angel was doing while he was doing it... or if they did, they didn't think it actually meant anything.

Basically, I think they view them as being as disposable as those who dislike them claim that they are.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't think S8 was about Buffy and Angel at all, just archetypes that they forced those characters into. Then at the end they had an 'oh, shit' moment when they realized that wasn't going to fly with fans. So yeah, I don't think they actually thought too much about Angel being the villain; they just thought it was cool.

[sp23.livejournal.com]

Yeah, even Willow lost her agency when she went dark. She wasn't power-hungry, she was tricked into becoming addicted to magic!

I haven't been reading the new comics so I only know what's happening from reading posts. I can't say I'm sorry I gave up on the whole sorry mess.

Sorry I missed your birthday. HAPPY BELATED BIRTHDAY! I hope you post about how you like your new Fire. I'm very tempted, but I'm also tempted by a new computer I saw and I desperately need a new cell phone. _^$_^ Oh, and then there's that Christmas thing. To steal from you, Yeesh! ;-)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I'll let you know when it finally gets here.

And, yeah, I don't know what Whedon has against letting characters actually own their choices.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I didn't know about that firefly scene. It sounds horrible, I'm actually glad that was never filmed.

I'm glad I'm not reading the comics any more, it seems they go the exact way they went with S8, making Buffy and other characters go without agency of their own, which is double bad because in turn they are of course not responsible for their actions. I think it was something that was a problem on other occasions, on the shows etc. But it has never become so dominant as it is now with the comics.

I wish they would stop crapping over something I really liked.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

That Firefly scene sounds awful. Just deeply, truly awful.

More and more I think Joss probably shouldn't perform without an editorial net (which Allie is not)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Reading the commentaries on the Buffy comics...leads me to believe that Whedon will probably have Buffy end up pregnant via Severin, and the baby is siphoning off her power, and she's gone to Robin Wood to discuss what to do about it, which will ultimately sync into a rant by Robin on Spike. In other words? Is it just me or does anyone else think that someone forced Whedon to read and watch the Twilight series? And the Buffy comics are well his enraged reaction? (Another series I have not read, except over other people's shoulders).

Ah, Kindle Fire. I'm debating between that and the Ipad. Can you write on the Kindle Fire or keep a calendar? Or is it just a way of watching movies, tv shows, and books in color? Trying to figure out the difference between it and the Ipad.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Reading the commentaries on the Buffy comics...leads me to believe that Whedon will probably have Buffy end up pregnant via Severin, and the baby is siphoning off her power, and she's gone to Robin Wood to discuss what to do about it, which will ultimately sync into a rant by Robin on Spike. In other words? Is it just me or does anyone else think that someone forced Whedon to read and watch the Twilight series? And the Buffy comics are well his enraged reaction? (Another series I have not read, except over other people's shoulders).

If (a very big *if*) Buffy got pregnant, the implication is that it happened during her party in issue 1. Buffy doesn't remember what happened - but Severin wasn't present there unless he and Buffy's mysterious neighbor are the same person. Nobody saw him but Buffy - and she doesn't remenber her visit to his flat.

And I hope that Joss won't devolve into parodying Twilight. *shudders*

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Actually, I"m still sort of hoping she's knocked up by fairies. Hell, anything but blackout drunk convenient 'immaculate conception' because Joss doesn't want her to have actually made choices that she made or have any part in what happens to her.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I sort of have the sick suspicion they might actually try to validate the spacefrak by doing it again. In other words, they'll put across that being blackout drunk doesn't matter.

A part of me is suspicious of Willow being there in the morning and suspects she might have done something to her in her attempt to make her regret the Seed thing. A sort of Marley's Ghost roleplay.