Minear's Response to Fury
Dec. 12th, 2005 12:53 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shipperx(Teep posted Minear's response to Fury's interview on BAPS. I'm actually curious what the first response was about [though, I'm sure I can make a good guess]. I will say that as obnoxious as Fury can be, he does call stuff as he sees it (even when he's wrong). So I believe Fury believes what he says [and as his feelings concerning Joss's involvement tend to go along with my impressions ofinterviews and Succubus Club chats at the time, I'll tend to believe Fury's assessment of Joss's involvement.)
http://www.voy.com/14810/30950.html
Author: Tim Minear
Author Host/IP:
adsl-69-235-231-157.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net /
69.235.231.157
Subject: My own take on some of this
In reply to: Christian 's message, "Spike as a "black and white" type character? I'm not so sure. I tend to think he's more "Grey""
My own take on a couple of things. Everyone has a little different perspective, I guess. And I know and love Fury and would work with him again in a heartbeat. Also, who can tell from a printed interview what the subtleties are of what someone might be saying?
Anyway, from the time I started on Angel, which was right at the beginning, to the time I left, which was the end of season four -- I’d returned to Angel after Firefly went down -- Joss had been getting the rap on the 'net that he wasn't as involved with Angel as with Buffy. Or then not as involved with Buffy *or* Angel as with Firefly.
I think this is untrue.
And also true.
Let me try to clarify... when Joss was starting Buffy he was still working out not only the show, but how to actually *make* a show. It took him four or five years to get a Buffy writing staff in place that clicked. Each one of them strong links in the chain, folks who could write the show and deliver shoot-able drafts. More than that -- a staff that grew into being producers (and directors!), over-seeing pre-production, on-set concerns, and even sitting in on editorial. Joss could delegate tasks in a way that he couldn’t at first. Mostly this meant that as time went on, Joss didn’t have to do quite so much re-writing (and in those early seasons of “Buffy” he
rewrote virtually everything.)
Ideally, that’s what a writing staff does. They write. And a show runner doesn’t have to go in and fix everything. The Buffy staff was one of the best I’ve ever seen. Each one of them would have been the stand-out on any other writing staff.
By the time Angel came along, he’d sussed out the process pretty damn well. And the man who was with him at the start of Buffy, David Greenwalt, was running the new show. And they had, frankly, me. For whatever reason Joss, David and I clicked right away. We spoke the same language (oddly, we all sort of talk alike now. And I know it’s not just me -- I was told by a company I wrote a movie for that Jeff Bell was in to do a project for them and they were like, “you sound just like Tim Minear!”)
Anyway, speaking as guy who was one of the heavy lifters on Angel, Joss was totally involved. At least from seasons one through four when I was there. (And in his interview, David Fury says Joss actually put in *more* face time in season five, so make of that what you will...)[Me: Because, correct me if I'm wrong, Minear was gone from the series prior to Season 5, was he not? More like, wasn't he gone by early Season 4 when he was placed in charge of Firefly?] Every single story was broken with Joss. Angel locking the lawyers in the wine cellar? Joss. Angel firing his crew? Joss. The big showdown to hell being a simple elevator ride? Joss. Darla being staked to have her baby? Okay, that we me. Still. I pitched that she *gets* staked, Joss said, “what if she stakes herself?” I think you can see the value of that particular modification.
Thing was, he could spin out some idea and I’d understand in two seconds what he meant and could go
do it, and he didn’t have to worry. It was like that with all of us. But the driving force, the guy at the wheel, that was Joss. He’d chart where we needed to go, vet outlines, drafts, and always sit in on a cut after I was done and give notes. He was involved. [Me: Actually, hasn't Fury given Joss credit for a few things during Season 5 AtS... these just seem to be incrediblu unpopular things like Sparm and not getting more Spike/Angel story until late in the year because Joss was focused on antagonism...]
This isn’t to say that the rest of us didn’t help to shape things as well. We did. But I don’t want anyone here to be left with the impression that Joss wasn’t just what he was -- the driving creative force. Just sayin’.
One last thing -- -- Tim Minear,
21:28:33 12/11/05 Sun
(adsl-69-235-231-157.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net/69.235.231.157)
I know that David Fury is convinced that if Joss hadn't asked for a (slightly) early pick-up (and it was really nothing more than asking for not a *late* pick-up, which is what we always got, long after they'd announced for Charmed or 7th Heaven or whatever...) that the show would have been back for a sixth year. Just not convinced of it myself. [Me: Again, though, wasn't Minear off doing Wonderfalls or something in Season 5?]
"Angel" wasn't a cheap show for the network to buy. And it was, in genre TV terms, old. Or oldish. By the end of year five it's pretty clear that you're not going to suddenly turn into some breakout hit, so they knew just exactly what it would do for them. But I think the network was more inclined to make more room on their schedule to try and grow new show that *might* have been breakout hits for them. [Me: Those shows they didn't pick up like "Dark Shadows" and "Lost in Space" or all those shows that became hits last season like...er...uh... Huh. What shows did WB successfully lauch last year? Any? Bueller?]
Don't get me wrong, the show rocked and could easily have been great for a lot longer. But if you ask me, the network had made up its mind already or was at least really leaning in that direction.
Re: Some questions for Tim --
Tim Minear, 22:36:23 12/11/05 Sun
(adsl-69-235-210-231.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net/69.235.210.231)
Dandy -- I think Angel would have been cancelled after year five, frankly. I say this for previous reasons given: the network wanted to make room to grow new shows. Think of it like Vegas. They'd been putting coins into our machine for five years and hadn't hit a jackpot -- just got back respectable returns. They wanted to slide their network butts over and try a new machine.
[ME: Wonder how that's working out for them since their only successful launch in the last two years has been Supernatural which... um... isn't anything like AtS (except insofar as there are aspects which are like AtS.)]
DVD sales have literally nothing to do with network decisions. DVD sales are only of value to the studio that owns the shows that a network is, in essence, renting. So all proceeds from DVD sales go to 20th Television, the studo that produces Angel. The WB, the network that paid money to air it, sees none of that. (This is the same even if we're talking about something like Firefly -- 20th Television produced the show and made a killing off the DVDs. The Fox Network, which, though related to 20th, is its own thing, saw no profits from the DVD sales.)
Post apocalyptic LA would have been more expensive to produce, in my opinion. One of things that happened by actually cutting the budget in season five meant fewer locations or new sets per episode, which is why you saw more action taking place on standing W&H sets.
http://www.voy.com/14810/30950.html
Author: Tim Minear
Author Host/IP:
adsl-69-235-231-157.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net /
69.235.231.157
Subject: My own take on some of this
In reply to: Christian 's message, "Spike as a "black and white" type character? I'm not so sure. I tend to think he's more "Grey""
My own take on a couple of things. Everyone has a little different perspective, I guess. And I know and love Fury and would work with him again in a heartbeat. Also, who can tell from a printed interview what the subtleties are of what someone might be saying?
Anyway, from the time I started on Angel, which was right at the beginning, to the time I left, which was the end of season four -- I’d returned to Angel after Firefly went down -- Joss had been getting the rap on the 'net that he wasn't as involved with Angel as with Buffy. Or then not as involved with Buffy *or* Angel as with Firefly.
I think this is untrue.
And also true.
Let me try to clarify... when Joss was starting Buffy he was still working out not only the show, but how to actually *make* a show. It took him four or five years to get a Buffy writing staff in place that clicked. Each one of them strong links in the chain, folks who could write the show and deliver shoot-able drafts. More than that -- a staff that grew into being producers (and directors!), over-seeing pre-production, on-set concerns, and even sitting in on editorial. Joss could delegate tasks in a way that he couldn’t at first. Mostly this meant that as time went on, Joss didn’t have to do quite so much re-writing (and in those early seasons of “Buffy” he
rewrote virtually everything.)
Ideally, that’s what a writing staff does. They write. And a show runner doesn’t have to go in and fix everything. The Buffy staff was one of the best I’ve ever seen. Each one of them would have been the stand-out on any other writing staff.
By the time Angel came along, he’d sussed out the process pretty damn well. And the man who was with him at the start of Buffy, David Greenwalt, was running the new show. And they had, frankly, me. For whatever reason Joss, David and I clicked right away. We spoke the same language (oddly, we all sort of talk alike now. And I know it’s not just me -- I was told by a company I wrote a movie for that Jeff Bell was in to do a project for them and they were like, “you sound just like Tim Minear!”)
Anyway, speaking as guy who was one of the heavy lifters on Angel, Joss was totally involved. At least from seasons one through four when I was there. (And in his interview, David Fury says Joss actually put in *more* face time in season five, so make of that what you will...)[Me: Because, correct me if I'm wrong, Minear was gone from the series prior to Season 5, was he not? More like, wasn't he gone by early Season 4 when he was placed in charge of Firefly?] Every single story was broken with Joss. Angel locking the lawyers in the wine cellar? Joss. Angel firing his crew? Joss. The big showdown to hell being a simple elevator ride? Joss. Darla being staked to have her baby? Okay, that we me. Still. I pitched that she *gets* staked, Joss said, “what if she stakes herself?” I think you can see the value of that particular modification.
Thing was, he could spin out some idea and I’d understand in two seconds what he meant and could go
do it, and he didn’t have to worry. It was like that with all of us. But the driving force, the guy at the wheel, that was Joss. He’d chart where we needed to go, vet outlines, drafts, and always sit in on a cut after I was done and give notes. He was involved. [Me: Actually, hasn't Fury given Joss credit for a few things during Season 5 AtS... these just seem to be incrediblu unpopular things like Sparm and not getting more Spike/Angel story until late in the year because Joss was focused on antagonism...]
This isn’t to say that the rest of us didn’t help to shape things as well. We did. But I don’t want anyone here to be left with the impression that Joss wasn’t just what he was -- the driving creative force. Just sayin’.
One last thing -- -- Tim Minear,
21:28:33 12/11/05 Sun
(adsl-69-235-231-157.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net/69.235.231.157)
I know that David Fury is convinced that if Joss hadn't asked for a (slightly) early pick-up (and it was really nothing more than asking for not a *late* pick-up, which is what we always got, long after they'd announced for Charmed or 7th Heaven or whatever...) that the show would have been back for a sixth year. Just not convinced of it myself. [Me: Again, though, wasn't Minear off doing Wonderfalls or something in Season 5?]
"Angel" wasn't a cheap show for the network to buy. And it was, in genre TV terms, old. Or oldish. By the end of year five it's pretty clear that you're not going to suddenly turn into some breakout hit, so they knew just exactly what it would do for them. But I think the network was more inclined to make more room on their schedule to try and grow new show that *might* have been breakout hits for them. [Me: Those shows they didn't pick up like "Dark Shadows" and "Lost in Space" or all those shows that became hits last season like...er...uh... Huh. What shows did WB successfully lauch last year? Any? Bueller?]
Don't get me wrong, the show rocked and could easily have been great for a lot longer. But if you ask me, the network had made up its mind already or was at least really leaning in that direction.
Re: Some questions for Tim --
Tim Minear, 22:36:23 12/11/05 Sun
(adsl-69-235-210-231.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net/69.235.210.231)
Dandy -- I think Angel would have been cancelled after year five, frankly. I say this for previous reasons given: the network wanted to make room to grow new shows. Think of it like Vegas. They'd been putting coins into our machine for five years and hadn't hit a jackpot -- just got back respectable returns. They wanted to slide their network butts over and try a new machine.
[ME: Wonder how that's working out for them since their only successful launch in the last two years has been Supernatural which... um... isn't anything like AtS (except insofar as there are aspects which are like AtS.)]
DVD sales have literally nothing to do with network decisions. DVD sales are only of value to the studio that owns the shows that a network is, in essence, renting. So all proceeds from DVD sales go to 20th Television, the studo that produces Angel. The WB, the network that paid money to air it, sees none of that. (This is the same even if we're talking about something like Firefly -- 20th Television produced the show and made a killing off the DVDs. The Fox Network, which, though related to 20th, is its own thing, saw no profits from the DVD sales.)
Post apocalyptic LA would have been more expensive to produce, in my opinion. One of things that happened by actually cutting the budget in season five meant fewer locations or new sets per episode, which is why you saw more action taking place on standing W&H sets.
