Huh. Epiphany.

[shipperx]

Huh. You know how your mind wanders into strange territory sometimes? While pondering Deadwood characters -- specifically the tightasses -- my mind somehow wandered back to my kinkathon fic (which I know I didn't post a chapter this weekend. I'm slow. I'm sorry). Anyway, I was thinking about the fact that I dropped that thing in the story about Gorbach and his mother (another touch of that in the upcoming chapter). And, certainly, there's an ongoing plot point with William/Spike and his mother. While I have the story mapped out, I'm sometimes surprised by details that I put in that weren't planned (Gorbach's dependence on the idea that his mother [and Halfrek] will 'fix things' was such a detail). I don't always know why those things show up. Sometimes the subconscious provides. But, while thinking about it, I discovered that it has a point.

So often antis (you know, Spike haters) point to William's relationship with his mother, Anne, as a Norman Bates thing. "See, he was poised to be a serial killer! He was close to his mother!" My reaction is always "WTF?!"

While pondering the aforementioned thing with Gorbach, it struck me why Spike/Anne's relationship (close as it is) doesn't come off the least bit Norman Bates.

It's Anne.

Anne isn't a dominating/domineering mother figure. That's why, for all the "mammas boy" trappings the situation has for a lot of people, it doesn't ring true as grand dysfunction.

The whole thing with Anne was that William was trying to 'take care' of her. It wasn't that she was a domineering mother figure (though the post-vamped one took on those qualities). She wasn't. If anything she was retiring, passive, . . .weak. That reshaped the relationship into something not the least bit Norman Bates-like. It simply wasn't.

(I'll confess I'm still confused by vamp Anne in LMPTM. Knowing ME, it was never thought out from her POV. The story was clearly set up to turn Spike's psyche 'just so' for Fury. And I still have my quibbles. I'm not sure the changes from pre-vamp Anne to post-vamp Anne fit the same person. I understand it in concept, but not from a personality construct of Anne in her own right rather than a post-vamp Anne created to further Spike's story. Not that I'm going to bother changing it, it's just that Anne's personality change strikes me as far less convincing than William's, Liam's, Darla's, or Dru's. But then those characters were conceived in different ways for different purposes.)

Conclusion -- Anne/William's relationship is characterized by Anne not as a domineering/controlling person but as someone who William perceived as needing a protector. That's a different thing from the Norman Bates set up (and that may even by why I subconsciously have demented child Gorbach's dependence on his mother . . .though I didn't plan it out. Still, it makes some kind of sense. At least to me.)

Comments

[spikewriter]

For the time and place they were in, William was doing exactly what he was supposed to do -- take care of his mother after his father's death. It's entirely possible that in his father's will that it was specifically stated his mother would have the use of the house for her lifetime -- it's a common proviso in those days.

As for William perceiving she needed a protector, that's also in keeping with the philosphy of the cult of "pure womanhood" that was so rampant in certain circles of Victorian England. Women were to be revered, set on a pedestal and protected from the "cruelties" of the world. No, not a Norman Bates relationship at all, but a very real situation that was quite common in that period. But then, some people will latch on to anything they could.

No, I don't think ME thought Anne through, but there was a moment when she seemed disappointed at his protestation that she was the primary woman in his life, possibly even a hint of annoyance. William wasn't getting on with the business of finding a wife and breeding children, which he should have been doing at his age. If you squint sideways, that could lead to the attitude of Vamp!Anne. :)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Your take on the situation is in sync with mine (both in the direction I'm taking within the story and in my general feeling on the whole William/Anne relationship as it was presented on the show.) I always wonder about the antis "Norman Bates" accusation. What would you propose him to do? Would it be better if he ignored his terminally ill mother?

[spikewriter]

With the antis, nothing Spike/William does could ever possibly be good. If he had shown resentment for being the caretaker of an elderly, sick and dying woman, then they would have eviscerated him for being ungrateful and a "bad son." By being a dutiful son, the only interpretation they can put on his behavior is that there must be some twisted, Oedipal urgings driving him to take care of her.

These are the type of people who still call Nurse Chapel "bitch," "slut," and "whore" because they resent her feelings for Spock on the original Trek. I generally try to avoid them, especially at social gatherings.

[spacedoutlooney.livejournal.com]

I think ME thought through Anne's characterization, but left things wide open to interpretation to inspire fun debate. And I suspect that co-writer Goddard was the one to write most of the flashback scenes, as the flashbacks were originally supposed to be in Never Leave Me, which he wrote himself. I try not to pay Fury too much mind, he's written one brilliant episode, a couple really good ones, and several good ones, but in interviews/commentaries, he doesn't seem to "get it." Anyway, I'm not going to worry what goes on in his head.

Aaanyway, I've never heard of a Spike-Norman Bates comparison. Huh.

I think there are any number of interpretations for what happened between Spike and his mom, but I think she goaded him into staking her. She had a death wish as a human, evidenced by her not wanting Spike to call a doctor. She didn’t want to spend the rest of her days with Spike taking care of her. As soon as he broke off the stake she stopped struggling with him, like she was just waiting for him to do it. So all the nastiness and coming on to him and so forth was to convince him to stake her and end her existence as well as taking vengeance on him for turning her.

A couple of key quotes:

Spike: Look at you
Spike’s Mom: Mm, yes. All better.
Spike: You're glowing.
Spike’s Mom: Am I? Well, I suppose I have you to thank for that, don't I? How ever will I repay you?
Spike: Seeing you like this is payment enough.
Spike’s Mom: Oh, William, you're so... tender.
Spike: Well, this is as it should be, mother. You and I together. All of London laid out before us.
Spike’s Mom: Ah, yes. Us.

Spike: Tell me, what's your pleasure?
Spike’s Mom: Pleasure? To take my leave of you, of course. "The lark hath spake from twixt its wee beak?" You honestly thought I could bear an eternity listening to that twaddle? I feel extraordinary. It's as though I've been given new eyes. I see everything. Understand... everything. I hate to be cruel— No, I don't. I used to hate to be cruel in life. Now, I find it rather freeing. Nothing less will pry your greedy little fingers off my apron strings, will it?

Spike’s Mom: Perhaps you’d like the chance to finish what you started.

Spike’s Mom: There, there, precious. It will only hurt for a moment.

Well, that's what I think.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I always have a very difficult time separating that whole sequence from Anne Rice's novel "The Vampire Lestat." I predicted that scene almost exactly from that novel. We had gotten some snippet of a scene in casting sides (not that scene but an Anne Scene) and I predicted the whole sequence of Anne/William based entirely on "The Vampire Lestat" because while not exactly what happened in the Rice novel (Lestat's mom just went traipsing off on her own for the next 200 years instead of being killed) the general relationship was exactly the same from her having consumption, to his trying to save her, to her subsequent rejection of the son. I don't believe Fury consciously ripped off the plot point... but as it was the second plot point that reads like a lift from Rice, I do wonder whether he ever read her early books. (For the moment, I've forgotten what the other Ricean rip-off was, but I'll remember at some point).

And, yeah, there is a distinct possibility she goaded Spike into staking her. But that's vague enough as to be something that will always be a matter of interpretation. I could see it argued either way.

[spikeylover.livejournal.com]

Yeah, right now at the SMG board (in whose the better man for Buffy thread) there is a bunch of Haven people who claim that Spike is a woman hater, and point at his relationship and devotion to his mother as some kind of indication of this.

It boggles the mind.

Maybe I watched the show differently than anyone else in the world, but unsouled Spike with his skewed moral values felt that siring his mother would make her better. When it made her into someone he didn't know and he knew his mother would abhore, he destroyed her. Also, this affected him so badly that the First was able to make him it's bitch over it. I simply don't find that to be any indication of woman hate, nor can I find anything in his treatment of Drusilla or Buffy, that would make me go--Gee, now Spike just hates women. The only thing would be Harmony, but then I brought up Buffy, Xander, Angel and other people in the verse's treatment of unsouled beings. That is okay, only Spike is labeled a woman hater.

Souled Spike is a woman hater because he bopped Harmony in DESTINY and hit Faith in TOUCHED.

Sorry about getting into this thing but your post kind brought it up in my head. LOL.

[spacedoutlooney.livejournal.com]

Wow, that kind of argument is messed up.

I thought your interpretation here of Spike's motives was what most everyone thought.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Sounds like you've hung out in the nicer places on the web. Interpretations of Spike range from the sypathetic, to the ambivalent, to the seething/frothing at the mouth irrational hatred of him. Absoluetly every choice Spike has ever made had had a negative connotation placed on it in some corners of the web.

[spacedoutlooney.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I try to avoid the nastier places (*cough* twop *cough*) and think happy thoughts. If somethings open to interpretation, I'm going to interpret it in a way that satisfies me. tra la la.

I suspect that Spike's popularity caused a huge backlash and that's why there's a large group of fans that rabidly hate him.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Undoubtedly. That and he stood/stands between Bungel Pewfewct Twu Wuv 4 Eva! Also he apparently "stole" Buffy from Xander... and all of Xander's airtime.

(No it makes no logical sense, but in certain quarters it doesn't need to in order to be the argument of choice).

You're right. It's best to ignore them.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

His devotion to Anne is a sign of his hate of her? Wha-huh?

Hey, at least he killed Anne to save her.

Liam killed HIS mother just because! (Or as an act of revenge against his father).

Eh. Ducks are insane. Their interpretations of Spike have nothing to do with the character of Spike but just as a way to eliminate him as a rival. Pfft.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Ironically, this comes from many of the same people who wanted Xander and Angel to call Buffy a whore for her having sex with Spike in Season 6.

[kellyhk.livejournal.com]

I may be way off on this, but wasn't it more tradition of era where one of the sons (usually not the first born) took on the role of the mother's caretaker when the Victorian father passed on?

If that's the case, he was far from Norman Bates as can be. He was the dutiful son that society expected and even, in his warped way as a vamp, carried that duty to the unlife.

Then again, I could be wrong.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Women in that time period weren't allowed to own property (wouldn't be allowed for nearly another 10 years). Yes, it was custom that on passing of the husband, the eldest son supported his mother until her death.

Nothing about the set-up was unusual for that time period. Although, William probably should have been married by that point.

By the same token Liam was in his late twenties and should NOT have been like a wasteful teenaged boy. His father had a legitimate point that Liam was a man who his father had real reason should be employed rather than a wastrel. He wasn't some 18th century frat boy.

But, people often don't put accurate historical contexts around their arguments regarding Spike. :)

[paratti.livejournal.com]

I've always seen William doing what both the society of the time and any decent person would demand - look after his dying mother. And fail to see how Buffy was a hero for trying to look after Joyce and william was NB for trying to do the same with Anne (pre-vamping). But then the model of insane troll logic the anti's have resembles earth logic in no way.

Re Anne's attitude post vamping, it does make sense if the vamp is formed by the attitudes and emotions at turning. He's been gone for days with no word. She's worried, frightened and terminally ill. He turns up with a most unsuitible 'trollop' and a bit drunk. She's angry. She's worried about him (especially with all the murders going on in the London of FFLtime) and he turns up with an absolutely unsuitible woman. She's vamped and all that anger with him's warped and taken out in the way most calculated to hurt him.

[pfeifferpack.livejournal.com]

See I've NEVER seen Spike as a mammas boy. His relationship was as a care giver. His mom had been ill (TB can run a long course). He had put aside his own "future" to take care of her. In my mind, a mammas boy is one that, like Peter Pan, never grown up. MOM takes care of HIM. This is the opposite (and reflected in his taking care of the damaged Dru and later Buffy, etc.) His nature is as a caregiver!

As for vampAnne, I've always thought it was a deliberate goading so that William would stake her before she had to go out and begin killing. She didn't want the "gift" he innocently offered and found a way out. The loving look as she dusted seemed to say that to me. I don't think she truly felt the things she said to him, she used the words on a sensitive man to get the results she wanted. Spike always was sensitive to words ...they have power to him. Look how Buffy staked him over and over with her verbal stakes?

No Spike haters will find ANY excuse no matter how lame but it boils down to the fact they hate him IN SPITE of all evidence to the contrary.

Kathleen