Beneath You

[shipperx]

Home for my day off. Caught the end of "Beneath You" playing on FX. Usually I avoid watching BtVS reruns as if they are toxic, but I recognized it as the scene where Buffy was about to find Spike in the church.

God, that scene still guts me. The stuff about "Am I flesh to you?" I still interpret that as Spike realizing that Buffy had basically used him as a prostitute in Season 6. And Spike's pain and sacrifice-- he had truly eviscerated himself in desperation and remorse. It still brings me to tears. And the moments with Buffy still strike me as being about Angel. Spike did this out of love of her, what Buffy is thinking is 'how could Spike do this? Why didn't Angel? I wanted Angel to do this" (At least that's how I always end up interpreting the [rare and thus significant] flashes of emotion that Buffy displays.)

Poor Spike. It kills me how much he simply wanted to be loved.

I'm in tears by the time he's to "Can we rest now?" And I wonder how Buffy could have been so heartless as to leave him there. Then again, I'm not prone to be overly kind in interpreting her actions. I give Buffy the upset at the beginning of the scene, but by the end? How could she just leave him there on the cross?

Anyway, JM did a phenomenal job. ::sniffle:: Poor Spike.

Comments

[spikeylover.livejournal.com]

I saw that too, and my TV finally had a clear picture. I think Marsters was extraordinary and I clearly saw those tears rolling down Gellar's face.

I don't think she was thinking about Angel. She left gutted boy to chase after Spike, even after he taunted her about the rape. They are a very deep pair, to say the least. (at least to me)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Since there are so many possible interpretations of her reaction shots, I usually leave it that...well... there are a ton of legitimately possible interpretations of her reaction shots. I could see how someone could reach a number of conclusions and who am I to say what's right or wrong (well, except for the utterly insane ones as usually evidenced by the rabid Spike haters). But I can accept that many people bring their own text to her wordless reaction. Since there's not actual text and only what we can interpret, I think that it really is an individual interpretation thing. We don't know with any real conclusive evidence what she was thinking so we all bring our own pastiche of thoughts to the moment. Which is a long way to say, you're interpretation is a fair one, and every bit as defensible as my own.

[sp23.livejournal.com]

That (Joss-written) speech is probably the finest in either series, and James tore my heart out with it. As for Buffy... sigh. I truly thought that she'd actually gotten that she was as much responsible for what had happened in the Spring as he had been, but then the next week we find him still in the cellar. And isn't the next episode the one where she uses him as a bloodhound and jokes about his smell? Yeah, fuck you, Buffy.

I really wish we knew what Buffy's thoughts were there and at the end of Chosen. I know that Joss loves to dick with us though, but I'd really like to know what their intentions were.

[kcarolj65.livejournal.com]

I never really spent much time ruminating on Buffy's reaction, because to me it was clear that she was totally blown away by Spike's revelation of regaining his soul. And why wouldn't she be? By doing so he's obliterated every single precept that she's been taught and defending ever since she was chosen - that demons are evil, have no higher feelings, and would never ever wish to be good for any reason. And yes, if one follows that train of thought to its logical conclusion, she would naturally wonder why Angel never sought out this same demon, perhaps to anchor his soul or even to turn human, though I think her brain was too overwhelmed at that moment to make that leap. She reacts to the shock in a completely believable way - barely able to speak, much less do anything proactive or even reactive (such as getting Spike off that cross). It's too big and too alien to her concept of reality for her to deal with, so she runs - a time-honored Buffy tradition. Not particularly admirable, but then we should be used to that from Buffy, given her behavior during Season 6.

[kcarolj65.livejournal.com]

Of late I've been trying to give Buffy the benefit of the doubt more than I ever did before, but there are times, such as you describe in "Beneath You", when I wonder whether she deserves such consideration.

Totally agree w/you about the last scene. JM is amazing and even though some might see it as over-the-top, I still get chills and teary-eyed whenever I see it.

I've always wondered, too...if Buffy didn't help Spike down from that cross, who did? I read a wonderful story (forget its title and author) in which XANDER does, after silently observing the whole exchange. And then, to my extreme satisfaction, he tells Buffy in no uncertain terms what he thinks of her treatment of Spike.

[pelinxf.livejournal.com]

God, that scene still guts me. The stuff about "Am I flesh to you?" I still interpret that as Spike realizing that Buffy had basically used him as a prostitute in Season 6. And Spike's pain and sacrifice-- he had truly eviscerated himself in desperation and remorse.

That scene alone still bring tears to my eyes.There's a lump in my throat I cannot swallow. This is the saddest moment in the show for me, not even his death hurt me as much as his realization did. He was nothing more than flesh to her. Something to chew on, something to forget her troubles. Something. Thing. It kills me every time.

I didn't think Buffy think about Angel there, interestingly it was one of those few times I saw a trace of emotion on her face. Sadly the next episode wiped out anything that was slightly positive in BY.

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

Poor Spike. It kills me how much he simply wanted to be loved. And because Joss is the evil bastard that he is he never IMO allows Spike to truly feel that love even at the very end.
That scene always gets to me as well and I find myself getting teary by the time JM climbs up on the cross. I'm not so sure Buffy is thinking about Angel at that precise moment but I'm sure it had to have crossed her mind in the wee hours of the morning that Spike was able to do the one thing Angel could never bring himself to accomplish. I also don't think she left him there on the cross because he's in pretty good physical shape by the next episode so IMO she did tear him off the cross. Whether she did anything besides that such as taking him back to the basement I kind of doubt but I do give her the benefit of the doubt on the cross removal. I think that is the moment in her life when Spike completely rocks her to her foundation; he goes and gets a soul for her knowing that she treated him like a prostitute, that she didn't love him - in other words, she didn't worship him like Angel. I can see her sitting for hours and hours after that and just staring off into space. I also think that explains her rotten behavior in ST,SP, she's still processing and being all avoidy because she just can't face the truth. Boy, this came out a lot more wordy than I was planning. Just goes to show how much that scene still affects me.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I suppose I'm influenced regarding the "she left him on the cross" matter because by the time "Beneath You" aired we already had the script for STSP and in the script Spike was supposed to be horribly scarred with burns on his face. Clearly during filming they decided it was just too much, but the knowlege that it was originally intended that way always undercuts the benefit of a doubt I would have given.

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

You're right, I forgot about the script leak. Well, clearly ME re-thought that one, thank God, because then people really would have despised her.
BTW, I watched the DVD of Jane Espenson at WriterCon and she was talking about the leaks. It turned out to be the In Boxes on people's doors where they left things overnight. I thought that was pretty amusing that none of them gave all that detail sitting there a second thought.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Heh. If they want to believe that, they can. But there were simply TONS of spoiler sources in all sorts of locations. ME was bleeding entire scripts in Season 7.

[fenchurche.livejournal.com]

Interesting that they always seem to "re-think" that sort of stuff when it's Buffy abusing (or, in this case, neglecting) Spike. I remember hearing that tidbit about "Dead Things" where they'd had to refilm the beating scene because it was too vicious. Yeah, like what we got wasn't bad enough.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Bizarre to cast your 'heroine' as abusive in the first place. I mean, really, is there any other 'heroine' that's ever been abusive? Xena was strong but I don't remember her abusing Gabrielle. As angry as Aeryn could be, they never had her physically abuse Crichton.

I still don't quite get where they thought "Well she may be sleeping with Spike but he's a vampire, so if she beats the crap out of him in an alley and leaves him there, it's not really abuse." Wha-huh? It's not like a sparring match. They were doing physical damage and then having Buffy cry for herself. My mind still boggles over some of the ME decision making during Season 6. I'm still not sure what 'universal experience' they thought they were tapping into.

[mlgm.livejournal.com]

More than anything else Buffy seems confused to me during the entire scene. As if in her entire life; she's never felt anything that deep, or real or even tried to.

[fishsanwitt]

That scene is a *killer* to watch. I always cry. *sigh*

[marajade71.livejournal.com]

After all this time, no matter how many times I have watched, this scene still makes me cry. I watch the ending with a big lump in my throat. It's such a tragedy and my heart really breaks for Spike. He wanted to be loved so much, but Buffy only used him as a sex toy.

As for Buffy, in my opinion, she is not capable of deep emotions and the concept of "love" in Spike's mind is very alien to her. So she most probably thinks "Oh God, this situaton sucks, what I am gonna do" and "Why Angel didn't do anything like that? Why Spike instead of Angel?". I don't think she gave much thougt to Spike's pain. She might have felt ashamed, but only slightly. After all she was a "good girl who was going through a bad phase" during Season Six and did nothing wrong at all. *rolleyes*

[nutmeg3.livejournal.com]

I commend you for being able to watch. I just can't go back there. It hurts too much to know how badly it ends.

[filippin.livejournal.com]

I'm right there with you... (sorry for busting in like this -- I'm a chronic lurker, but a faithful reader--and I just couldn't resist to comment on this! :-)). I haven't been able to watch *any* Buffy reruns after the end of the series (and I've got it all either on tape or on DVD [I never bought Seasons 6 & 7, purely out of spite]). After reading the spoilers for the finale of Season 7 on BAPS, I wasn't even able to watch the last 4 episodes! (only saw some random snippets, and hated them). Anything that came after "Tabula Rasa" was a killer for me, and still is. I just can't put up with all the gratuitous pain and mocking they inflicted on poor Spike. :-(

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it just ended in such a disheartening way for me that I still have a very difficult time watching even bits and pieces of BtVS. That seems very sad to me.

[nutmeg3.livejournal.com]

I watched all the way to the bitter - and it truly was bitter - end, but I pretend to myself that the show really ended with "The Gift," or maybe OM,wF. Then I just stick my fingers in my ears and go selectively deaf. I hope someday I'll want to rewatch the early years again, but I don't see it happening any time soon. It makes me so sad to realize how something that once made me so happy was so ruined that I may never be able to enjoy it again.

[filippin.livejournal.com]

I'm right there with you, Nutmeg!--in complete denial about the way the show ended.

My personal cure: I've been living my own "Spike & Buffy Show" through fan fiction--ever since the fall of 2001!

I do hope that maybe, someday, I'll be able to re-watch the early years of "BtVS" -- but who knows... My bitterness level about the show has been pretty constantly high.

Pity, really.

[nutmeg3.livejournal.com]

I wish fanfic could help me, but the show's own wrong turn is burned so indelibly on my mind that nothing can counter it. The best I can do is pretend things stopped earlier than they did. It just...sucks.

[filippin.livejournal.com]

Eh, I know... It does take *huge* amounts of denial to imagine the "Spike & Buffy Show"... But then again, one could say Denial is my middle name! It also took me a while to buy into it, too, truth be told. Guess I wanted to believe. :-) It did come at the price of never being able to watch the show again, though... Oh, and guess what: I can't read any S/B fanfic set post-Tabula Rasa--unless it's done by really, really good writers.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Well, denial can be a good thing.

[nutmeg3.livejournal.com]

Since I can't watch the show anymore, either, maybe it will eventually fade from my memory enough that believing in fan fic will seem less of an impossibility. A girl can dream, right?

[the-nites-gurl.livejournal.com]

Yes.

I Always shed tears over that scene. And I'm not exagerating! His performance, the delivery of those heartbreaking lines. I can't help it, it gets me Every time.

And she Left him there!!! GRRR

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

"And he will be loved..." still feels like a promise unfulfilled.