Lost -- Second Thoughts
May. 11th, 2010 11:44 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shipperxOkay, having had a couple of hours to digest... I'm still muddled.
Is anyone telling the truth? Actually, that's not even the question. The real question is does anyone know what the truth is?
This seems to be a repeating theme with Lost. People who seem so certain of something, people who we assume know are revealed in the cold light of day to be as confused, misled, mendacious, and fallible as everyone else.
These characters tell others the stories that they tell to themselves, because what else do they have? This is all that they know.
There is no omniscient god versus a primordial devil on the island. It's far more human and petty than that. It's far more old gods than a new testament one. It's sort of like the feuds of Cain and Able... or Osiris and Set.. or Romulus and Remus or... pick your Greek and Roman gods [here]. In fact, these aren't really gods at all, but fallible humans with vaguely god-like powers that function with their own biases, selfishness, wants, needs and weaknesses.
So I'm trying to explain this to myself. Here is what I got out of the episode (Beats me if I have any of it right):
We don't know why Allison Janey's character was there. Was she sentenced there? Or was she trapped just like others throughout the history of the island who have found themselves trapped there? Did she wash up one day and become chosen by the Jacob before her? Because, ultimately, it seemed like she was Jacob before Jacob was (and Smokey before Smokey was as well). We know that she thought that she was protecting the island, but we also know that she murdered a woman and took that woman's children to raise them to be demi-gods and quite probably become both her murderer and her successor, because... what? The island won't let people kill themselves? They can murder each other, though. And she did manage to pull off that trick. She was freed from being stuck on the island when by fate or design one of her own children murdered her (but after she had murdered him first).
We learned that Jacob follows and obeys and doesn't like to be bothered with questions that upset him. He doesn't have the nerve to rebel. He is what he is, not only out of 'goodness' (is it goodness?) and 'loyalty' but also out of cowardice and fear. He simply doesn't have the nerve or the knowledge to be anything else.
Jacob always wanted Mother's love. He claims that Mother loved MIB best, but did she? Perhaps? Perhaps not. Perhaps she just had a plan. She seems to love them both... but she built the whole relationship on having murdered Jacob's and MIB's real mother.
Jacob is and always has been jealous of MIB.
MIB did not understand death as a boy, though he did know it as a man because he has experienced grief, though he also doesn't have a particularly good view of people even if he does identify with them more than Jacob ever did.
MIB has never been off the island.
He was born there and so the 'home' he wants is not a home that he's ever been to. He's pulled a reverse Ben. Ben once claimed to have been born on the island when the truth was that he hadn't been. MIB claims to have come from off the island, but the truth is he was born on it and has never, ever been allowed to leave.
He wasn't imprisoned there from some crime. He came to it an innocent child and was corrupted there.
Jacob's stance that the purpose of the island is to hold in evil is... somewhat questionable, but also still somewhat possible. Perhaps he gained knowledge after he drank, more probably he's acting as his own brother's (and perhaps his own) very judgey judge and jury.
Still, the story that Mother told Jacob and MIB was not about containing evil but of protecting (what she perceived as) the devine. She taught them that they were protecting the light from a world that would steal it and one child bought it hook, line, and sinker (folie a deux?) and the other asked 'for what?' and 'why?'
At any rate, Jacob has changed that myth now. Did it change or is he not above having rationalizations and fabrications of his own? (I think there's a lot of rationalization going on).
Did Jacob fundamentally change the nature of the light when he fed his murdered brother to it?
Both Jacob and MIB were kept in the dark. They weren't told the truth, so perhaps it shouldn't be a surprise that they have pulled the same stunt on Richard and the Lostees. The only truths that Jacob and MIB have are the ones that they were told and the ones they tell themselves, any of which may true or just self-serving lies.
There is something magical on the island, but they only have cursory knowledge of it. Did Jacob know that in feeding his brother to the light that he was creating a smoke monster? Did he only think that he was killing his brother in a final way? Did he kill his brother primarily out of jealousy?
Jacob's and MIB's conversation from last year's finale was an echo of what had been told to them as children.
There are no innocents here.
The Mother killed Jacob's and MIB's real mother. The Mother 'killed' MIB. MIB killed the 'Mother' (and she thanked him for it). And Jacob killed MIB.
Does anyone have the truth?
Not really.
We, the audience, sure as hell don't. We only know that these are the stories that these characters tell themselves or were told, but they're all acting as blindly as Richard Alpert when he was recruiting John Locke based primariy on having been told to do so... by John Locke.
So is MIB really the evil that must be contained at all costs? Sure, he's evil. We have dead Sayid, Jin, and Sun to tell us that. But, honestly, he's kind of an ordinary, constructed by life sort of evil. In many ways, even a sympathetic one (Sort of like Lucifer in Paradise Lost who makes far more sense than Milton's enigmatic God does). I don't get the impression that MIB was so powerful that his release alone would destroy the world. (And how would a smoke monster live in the world, anyway? I guess, maybe that's what John Locke was for?) He isn't there out of divine punishment. He, like everyone else, is trapped. And he's been trapped for a very, very, very long time.
And I'm still not impressed with Jacob's overwhelming "goodness." I'm sure that he likes to think of himself as the 'good one', but honestly? He's kind of a douche.
So, let's see, they're protecting the island's power, a power that heals and that kills. A power that traps and twists. A power that people rationalize however suits them but which we really don't know much about objectively. And everyone worships, fears, and trusts what none of them actually understand.
It's quite interesting. But I'm also terribly confused.
One concrete answer in the whole thing: now we know who were Adam and Eve.
Other than that, I'm intrigued but confuzzled
ETA: Did like this bit in EW's review:
Is anyone telling the truth? Actually, that's not even the question. The real question is does anyone know what the truth is?
This seems to be a repeating theme with Lost. People who seem so certain of something, people who we assume know are revealed in the cold light of day to be as confused, misled, mendacious, and fallible as everyone else.
These characters tell others the stories that they tell to themselves, because what else do they have? This is all that they know.
There is no omniscient god versus a primordial devil on the island. It's far more human and petty than that. It's far more old gods than a new testament one. It's sort of like the feuds of Cain and Able... or Osiris and Set.. or Romulus and Remus or... pick your Greek and Roman gods [here]. In fact, these aren't really gods at all, but fallible humans with vaguely god-like powers that function with their own biases, selfishness, wants, needs and weaknesses.
So I'm trying to explain this to myself. Here is what I got out of the episode (Beats me if I have any of it right):
We don't know why Allison Janey's character was there. Was she sentenced there? Or was she trapped just like others throughout the history of the island who have found themselves trapped there? Did she wash up one day and become chosen by the Jacob before her? Because, ultimately, it seemed like she was Jacob before Jacob was (and Smokey before Smokey was as well). We know that she thought that she was protecting the island, but we also know that she murdered a woman and took that woman's children to raise them to be demi-gods and quite probably become both her murderer and her successor, because... what? The island won't let people kill themselves? They can murder each other, though. And she did manage to pull off that trick. She was freed from being stuck on the island when by fate or design one of her own children murdered her (but after she had murdered him first).
We learned that Jacob follows and obeys and doesn't like to be bothered with questions that upset him. He doesn't have the nerve to rebel. He is what he is, not only out of 'goodness' (is it goodness?) and 'loyalty' but also out of cowardice and fear. He simply doesn't have the nerve or the knowledge to be anything else.
Jacob always wanted Mother's love. He claims that Mother loved MIB best, but did she? Perhaps? Perhaps not. Perhaps she just had a plan. She seems to love them both... but she built the whole relationship on having murdered Jacob's and MIB's real mother.
Jacob is and always has been jealous of MIB.
MIB did not understand death as a boy, though he did know it as a man because he has experienced grief, though he also doesn't have a particularly good view of people even if he does identify with them more than Jacob ever did.
MIB has never been off the island.
He was born there and so the 'home' he wants is not a home that he's ever been to. He's pulled a reverse Ben. Ben once claimed to have been born on the island when the truth was that he hadn't been. MIB claims to have come from off the island, but the truth is he was born on it and has never, ever been allowed to leave.
He wasn't imprisoned there from some crime. He came to it an innocent child and was corrupted there.
Jacob's stance that the purpose of the island is to hold in evil is... somewhat questionable, but also still somewhat possible. Perhaps he gained knowledge after he drank, more probably he's acting as his own brother's (and perhaps his own) very judgey judge and jury.
Still, the story that Mother told Jacob and MIB was not about containing evil but of protecting (what she perceived as) the devine. She taught them that they were protecting the light from a world that would steal it and one child bought it hook, line, and sinker (folie a deux?) and the other asked 'for what?' and 'why?'
At any rate, Jacob has changed that myth now. Did it change or is he not above having rationalizations and fabrications of his own? (I think there's a lot of rationalization going on).
Did Jacob fundamentally change the nature of the light when he fed his murdered brother to it?
Both Jacob and MIB were kept in the dark. They weren't told the truth, so perhaps it shouldn't be a surprise that they have pulled the same stunt on Richard and the Lostees. The only truths that Jacob and MIB have are the ones that they were told and the ones they tell themselves, any of which may true or just self-serving lies.
There is something magical on the island, but they only have cursory knowledge of it. Did Jacob know that in feeding his brother to the light that he was creating a smoke monster? Did he only think that he was killing his brother in a final way? Did he kill his brother primarily out of jealousy?
Jacob's and MIB's conversation from last year's finale was an echo of what had been told to them as children.
There are no innocents here.
The Mother killed Jacob's and MIB's real mother. The Mother 'killed' MIB. MIB killed the 'Mother' (and she thanked him for it). And Jacob killed MIB.
Does anyone have the truth?
Not really.
We, the audience, sure as hell don't. We only know that these are the stories that these characters tell themselves or were told, but they're all acting as blindly as Richard Alpert when he was recruiting John Locke based primariy on having been told to do so... by John Locke.
So is MIB really the evil that must be contained at all costs? Sure, he's evil. We have dead Sayid, Jin, and Sun to tell us that. But, honestly, he's kind of an ordinary, constructed by life sort of evil. In many ways, even a sympathetic one (Sort of like Lucifer in Paradise Lost who makes far more sense than Milton's enigmatic God does). I don't get the impression that MIB was so powerful that his release alone would destroy the world. (And how would a smoke monster live in the world, anyway? I guess, maybe that's what John Locke was for?) He isn't there out of divine punishment. He, like everyone else, is trapped. And he's been trapped for a very, very, very long time.
And I'm still not impressed with Jacob's overwhelming "goodness." I'm sure that he likes to think of himself as the 'good one', but honestly? He's kind of a douche.
So, let's see, they're protecting the island's power, a power that heals and that kills. A power that traps and twists. A power that people rationalize however suits them but which we really don't know much about objectively. And everyone worships, fears, and trusts what none of them actually understand.
It's quite interesting. But I'm also terribly confused.
One concrete answer in the whole thing: now we know who were Adam and Eve.
Other than that, I'm intrigued but confuzzled
ETA: Did like this bit in EW's review:
What did she get out of the deal? Companionship. Motherhood. And perhaps… an ending to an eternal obligation? The Stork had dropped twin bundles on her dirty doorstep — but what may have dazzled her more was the prospect of a golden parachute offering an exit from an endless dead-end job. With her dying breath, she thanked the son she loved the most, the one that was most like her, the “special” one with the angry spirit – the dreamer, the gamer, the liar, the cynic — for stabbing her in the back and through the heart. Were the boys nothing but an escape plan for her? Did she raise one to take her job and the other to take her life? Is this the way The Island works?
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no subject
Date: 2010-05-13 02:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-15 07:35 pm (UTC)I did find interview with Team Darlton (http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/posts/exclusive-interview-Lost-producers-damon-lindelof-and-carlton-cuse-talk-across-the-sea) to be interesting. Don't know how significant it is but I did find this Q&A intriguing:
you said all of the deaths happened in part so you could establish Smokey's bonafides as a bad guy, and to make it clear he's not on the side of our characters. And in that episode we were clearly meant to side with Jack as the newfound man of faith. But in "Across the Sea," it's Man in Black, who's the man of science, who winds up being the more sympathetic character, and the victim of his upbringing. So is it supposed to be black and white like the backgammon pieces, or is still supposed to be more complex in the war between the two sides>
DL: We have long sort of spoken about the interesting dynamic in the show is nobody is 100 percent good, nobody is 100 percent evil. Everybody has the capacity for both. Every time you come up with an explanation that's black and white, it turns into shades of grey. Ben Linus starts as a villain and then can become sympathetic. Sawyer and Jin who were also first presented in less than sympathetic lights became increasingly more sympathetic. We wanted to explain why the Man in Black had behaved the way that he does, and to show that like a lot of other characters on the show, he's the victim of very bad parenting. To reduce him to just a supernatural force, as opposed to a person, was not our intent. "Across the Sea" was our attempt to say, "Here's why Jacob feels the way he does about people, why the Man in Black feels the way he does about people," and a bit about their childhood. It's as simple as that and as complex as the themes of the show are.
Also found this question interesting:
Getting back to Adam and Eve for a second, can you talk me through the thought process of including that flashback to "House of the Rising Sun." Was there ever a thought of not having it in there and hoping the viewer could fill in the blanks?
DL: The reason that we put it in certainly wasn't because we thought it was too obscure and we wanted to hit people over the heads with it. It was more a matter of, here's an episode where our characters don't appear in it at all, and we wanted to make it clear to the audience that this little family drama, this dysfunctional relationship between these three people is really responsible for everything that's happening to the passengers of Oceanic 815. We wanted to illustrate that by, at the very end of the show saying, "Oh, right, Jack and Kate and Locke are affected by the fact that Mother decided to raise her kids this way, and Jacob ended up bringing these people to the island." The idea was to say that this chapter of the series is significant to the story we've been telling you, and that the series is about the survivors of Oceanic 815.
Like I said, I'm sure that Jacob has evolved over the last two thousand years. I believe the Richard episode showed that Richard told Jacob that he could interfere when he never had before. But I also think they were showing us that Jacob isn't some Jesus-like benevolent god. He's got human motivations under it all, just like MIB does.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-15 07:38 pm (UTC)When Mother slaughters the people in the human village, the iconography looked very much like the Dharma bunkers after the purge. Was this your way of suggesting why it was Jacob might have allowed The Others to slaughter the Dharma folk - that this is the punishment for anyone who gets too close to unlocking the island's secrets?
DL: In terms of what Jacob allowed, what he didn't allow, what The Others did of their own volition, with Ben basically saying "This came down from Jacob" is all in the area that is subject to interpretation purposely. What our intention was is that there is a repeating vicious cycle that seems to happen on this island, where people come to the island, they try to figure out what makes the island work, and the closer they came leads them to their own inevitable demise.
CC: Like Icarus
DL: The more curious you become about why the island has its properties, inevitably the protector of the island feels the need to engage in some form of mass genocide. It was more our attempt to say that history repeats itself, and this is an ongoing and continuing motif.