De-Evolution of Angel

[shipperx]

:
So, I'm trying to understand the various Allie and Jeanty Q&A's:

*      In the comics we see Twangel cheering on the anti-Slayer crowd, urging his followers to find stuff to turn people against Slayers, turning up the heat on  the persecution of Slayers, and Twangel announcing that he had to do these things in order  'to bring Buffy low' ( to get her super-special super powers), so he beat Satsu  and plays 'general on the sidelines' figure at the 'epic' battle that kills hundreds of Slayers.


*     Then we get the about-face and are told that Twangel hasn't actually harmed anyone.  He's been trying to help (squints really had to see how.  Still have nothing.  We just need to take on faith that without his invisible interference things would have been worse than they are and worse than the unknown alternative... that we also didn't see.)
 
 

*      But we still had that Twangel had to don the mask to 'bring her low' [though apparently, according to the Q&A and Twangle's 'explanation,'  he actually didn't do anything to accomplish that goal and was secretly 'helping' -- in direct opposition to his stated goal (and even though we never see him helping the slayers) ]  in order to bring about Twilight.


*      Except now Jeanty tells us that Twangel didn't know that Twilight meant space-frakking or the death of the world or... well, let's see....

Looks like Angel basically didn't know anything-- not what Twilight was, how it was activated, what it involved, what it meant, or what it did (nothing wrong with volunteering for a mission like that!).  He did, however, know that it was 'better' than the alternative (whatever that was). So, um... he 'knew'  the alternative was 'worse' than the Twilight that he had no understanding of ... because a talking dog told him so.  Makes perfect sense, right?  Who couldn't be persuaded by that?  He's not stupid at all!  And besides, he didn't actually do anything except the helping stuff that we didn't see.


*      So in pursuing the creation of the Twilight  [that he didn't know what it was but had decided  to  'bring about' by doing ... something (though we're not entirely sure what... which is okay because he had no idea what it would be either) ]

Well, anyway, after he did or didn't do whatever it was he thought he needed to do (but he didn't know what he actually needed to do) to bring about Twilight (whatever he thought that might be), we -- and he -- see that it's destroying the world.  So how does he react?  Twangel wants to stay in his special world even though he can see that it's bringing about the end of the world.  He even gives the circular logic of the present universe being replaced, but Scoobs, who are in the world that is being replaced, would be okay... somehow.  In the dead, replaced world that's coming apart at the seams.  

 

Makes perfect sense, right?  (  Huh?  )
 
 

*    And it's only because Buffy was going back to the world, leaving him in Twilight alone, that Angel decided to go back to the world that was being destroyed, that he didn't seem particularly bothered by it being destroyed (because he wasn't willing to help it until Buffy made him do it) but apparently -- we're now told -- he had no idea was going to be destroyed (other than his standing there witnessing its destruction and not caring very much).  In summary, he didn't actually know what 'bringing about Twilight' actually meant, so he didn't actually intend any of what he did (whatever that was that we're still not clear about).  And he did it just 'cause a talking dog told him to.


*    Then we get Twangel being taken over by Twilight so we can be extra doubly sure that he's really, most sincerely not in control over what he does at the end...even though he's not responsible for any of the rest of it either. 

 

So, let me sum up Twangel's 'character arc' of Season 8:

Angel didn't know anything.   He didn't do anything.  And anything he did do or it looks like he did, he's not actually responsible for except for the 'helping' stuff that we didn't see.  But he's gonna feel really bad about... something (not that he did anything, knew anything, or was actually responsible for anything) so feel really bad for the guy, okay? 

Great character arc, huh.


    

Comments

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

No doubt in an effort to plaster over and distract from the copious amounts of fail by giving an emotional 'montage.'

[rahirah]

I don't think even an 80s power ballad can save this one.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Heh. Probably not. Maybe we should try that method if we work up the energy to read the darn thing. What song should we choose?

"Making Love Out of Nothing At All" - Air Supply
"Love hurts" - Nazareth
"Total Eclipse of the Heart" - Bonnie Tyler
"Should've Known Better" - Richard Marxx
"I'd do anything for love... but I won't do that" - Meatloaf

[rahirah]

"What's Love Got to Do With It?"

(Actually I've always thought that the quintessential canon Spuffy song was Meatloaf's "Two Out of Three Ain't Bad.")

[fenchurche.livejournal.com]

Heh. After Season Six, at least, I always vacillate between "I'm Your Man" by Leonard Cohen and "How You Remind Me" by Nickelback.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

"How You Remind Me," definitely. But also "Outside" by Staind.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Hee. I'm beginning to wonder if Allie or Jeanty understand the plot or story that Whedon has laid out? Keep in mind, Whedon shows up, talks a mile a minute, lays it out, sends emails, and off. Go write it. He's not exactly been hands on in this endeavor.

I wonder if the people who are loving the comics realize that? They don't appear to. Yet, Whedon has said little about the comics, what he does say suggests he's not crazy about this enterprise and sees it as either a hobbby, a lark, or a chore. Also, from his interviews - the serious ones, the comics never come up. Plus, unless I missed something - he's not going to be that involved in S9 outside of a plot he roughly outlined prior to...going off to direct the Avengers.

And let's face it, Whedon's never exactly been the best of plotters. He plots like daytime soap writers and well Marvel comics writers...which is incredibly loosely. (hate to say this - but I think Guza on General Hospital is a better plotter - which is saying a lot.) Retconning things to make it work. I don't like Whedon's writing for the tight plots or the plot period, but the character drama. (I'm really not much of a plot girl, obviously, or I wouldn't be able to tolerate the serials I adore, character girl all the way.) So here's my problem - Whedon isn't writing dialogue or character drama, he's trying to do "plot", when that's clearly not his strength. He's writing the plot outlines for these things and little else - focusing on "thematic" and "big picture" arcs and not character drama??? That alone should give people pause. It's sort of like
going to see Sarah Michelle Gellar sing cabret. Uh no. Ever wonder why Greenwalt, Fury, Minear and Noxon and Bell were hired? Plotting.

And if you look at what Whedon excelled at in the series - it's character drama, character moments. Both in the comics - the one-shots and in the tv show. But his plot arcs...often feel soap operaish in their lunacy, which was where Greenwalt came in.

Here, I think Meltzer was supposed to cover the heavy-lifting on the plotting. But Meltzer knew about as much about Buffy as Willingham did about Angel. And according to Meltzer - he really didn't do that much plotting nor did he know anything that came before his arc - nor was he involved in anything that came after. So we have a loose plotter, an editor who is pretending to understand the plot or bluffing, a bewildered artist recieving little to no direction as far as I can tell, and several freelance writers popping up to write and pitch issues, with no clue what the main plot is or where the story is headed. This is a free-for-all.
And I'm guessing S9 is more of the same, except without the same writers...I have no idea who they've tricked hired to write these things.

Admittedly curious to see what if anything Whedon pulls out of his hat for 40. Part of me wonders if he will write a self-deprecating apology for the nonsensical plot, but that would of course mean admitting it's nonsensical which I can't see him doing. To give him credit - he did apologize for Beer Bad (but I actually liked Beer Bad - Beer Bad made sense, had a clear plot, good character moments here and there and was incredibly funny in places.)

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

This is a free-for-all.

That's exactly the impression I get, too. Allie outright said when it was announced he would write parts of the final arc that only Joss understood the plot (well, he said *he* and Joss, but I think was spin). Allie had access to the entire thing, I don't think that means he understands it, especially give how many times he has contradicted himself.

You definitely get the impression that Jeanty doesn't have a clue what's going on. He's wanking just as hard as some of the fans trying to make sense of it.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think Jeanty has even admitted as much a couple of times. I scanned his responses - but I got the impression that he was bewildered by some of the things he was told to draw. ("You want me to draw Angel throwing a plane at her? Oookay. But are you sure that's what Whedon said?" Allie: "We want it to be big! Trust me!" Jeanty shrugs and does it. He also seemed a bit confused about the whole finale sequence and upset he didn't get it right, because he didn't totally get it. It's very hard to draw something you don't understand.)

Allie - also admitted as much, when fans have asked him questions that clearly have left him bewildered. He clearly doesn't understand Spike or Angel's roles in this thing any more than we do. And from what I've read? I don't think Allie gets any of the characters outside of his favorite Xander. He's a B/X shipper and a huge Xander fan. So..Allie writing this thing feels at times like reading a Xander fan's grudge fic or a very long-winded written version of The Zeppo - which, uh, no, I can read that online for free thank you very much.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Jeanty sort of admitted the characterizations are whacked in a Q&A by saying something to the effect of the story to get those characters to here would be longer than the comics.

Allie gets any of the characters

I can see not getting them, my issue with Allie is he clearly doesn't have a very high opinion of them. But even the things Joss himself has written have come of and nothing short of antagonistic toward Buffy and sexuality.

The comics in most ways come off as almost an over the top satire of comic fanboy tropes. They are so in-your-face offensive to the point where you think they've got to be kidding, but with 39, we find out the joke is on us.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

can see not getting them, my issue with Allie is he clearly doesn't have a very high opinion of them. But even the things Joss himself has written have come of and nothing short of antagonistic toward Buffy and sexuality.

What about a literal vagina dentata and an embarassing space-frak that gives birth to an entity that destroys the world gives that impression? [/snark]

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Don't forget the rain of demons out of vagina-shaped tears in the dimension and space hymens.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

And let's face it, Whedon's never exactly been the best of plotters. He plots like daytime soap writers and well Marvel comics writers...which is incredibly loosely. (hate to say this - but I think Guza on General Hospital is a better plotter - which is saying a lot.) Retconning things to make it work.

Oh wow.

Doesn't Guza plotting work along the lines of "Oh shit, it's sweeps! Quick, have Luke catch a monkey virus! Holly can show up having gone bad for no reason and announce she's had a previously unknown child 20 years ago. Oh, had someone check to see whether we have still have any Quartermaines wandering around that we can casually kill off. Also, be sure to pencil in time for some Sonny or Jason man-pain..."

Admittedly curious to see what if anything Whedon pulls out of his hat for 40

I'm still rooting for Rahirah's and my idea of a 80s rock power ballad montage of emo... in print.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Unlike say having Angel going bad for no reason, Willow having an affair with a snake demon, Warren popping up back from the dead to torture Willow because Amy managed to save him at the last minute, or Buffy suddenly discovering she has a thing for women and then maybe not, or wait, Buffy after having spacesex with Angel, fantasizing about doing it with Spike...or Angel or Riley or Xander having their man-pain...no, this isn't crazy soap opera writing. Guza's is far nuttier. LOL! (I always laugh at Buffy fans who tell me daytime soaps are beneath them. Folks, you do know that Whedon was an unabashed Passions, All My Children, and General Hospital fan - right? And Marti came from writing for the soaps. Buffy - is a soap opera. Although the soap fans are far worse. )

'm still rooting for Rahirah's and my idea of a 80s rock power ballad montage of emo... in print.

Personally, I was hoping she'd wake up from a dream and discover she's in the insane asylum in Normal Again. OR woken from just a really bad night out drinking with Dawn, Andrew, Spike, Angel, and the Immortal in Italy.
In short - it was all a dream, but I'm not sure how they'd get a S9 out of that.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Unlike say having Angel going bad for no reason, Willow having an affair with a snake demon, Warren popping up back from the dead to torture Willow because Amy managed to save him at the last minute,...

I'm not defending Whedon-plotting. Believe me, I'm not. :)

All My Children, and General Hospital fan - right?
Well he did cast SMG who was an AMC star and he did reference Luke and Laura.

Re: Marti I'm not sure. I'm always unclear over whether people are confusing her with Agnes Nixon. (And I'm not sure that I wouldn't argue that Agnes Nixon wasn't the better writer. Back when she was in charge of AMC it wasn't actually bad (at least from what my 'brain-of-a-child-at-the-time' can remember.)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Hee. I'm beginning to wonder if Allie or Jeanty understand the plot or story that Whedon has laid out?

I've wondered this a time or three myself. And then I think... does anyone?

He's writing the plot outlines for these things and little else - focusing on "thematic" and "big picture" arcs and not character drama??? That alone should give people pause. It's sort of like
going to see Sarah Michelle Gellar sing cabret.

EXACTLY!

If you look at Whedon's 'plots' he generally does it 'connect the dots style.' 'This' happens at the beginning (foreshadowing the end) [then we have a bunch of other episodes] Sweeps! Better have a pivot point that sets up the big change! [then a bunch of other episodes] Feb sweeps! Bitter hit the Act Three transition. [then a bunch of episodes] Oh shit! It's time for the finale! Write something quick. Better yet, kill someone!

It often reminds me of that cartoon about calculus where they start with a formula and they get a result.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

've wondered this a time or three myself. And then I think... does anyone?

I don't think anyone does. Although I've read a lot of interpretations of what fans think it is. Instead of bring and fight for your own subtext, it's bring and fight for your own interpretation of the plot. Even the people who love the comics don't agree on the basic plot - which is highly amusing (to me at least).

f you look at Whedon's 'plots' he generally does it 'connect the dots style.' 'This' happens at the beginning (foreshadowing the end) [then we have a bunch of other episodes] Sweeps! Better have a pivot point that sets up the big change! [then a bunch of other episodes] Feb sweeps! Bitter hit the Act Three transition. [then a bunch of episodes] Oh shit! It's time for the finale! Write something quick. Better yet, kill someone!

Hee. So, so true. He writes like a lot of tv writers do. It's how he was taught to write - from the trenches on Roseanne. Hollywood writing 101.
The better writers pull out of that formula eventually...but there aren't many. And they tend to be on either HBO or regular Cable.

Comic writers also write like that - or the super-hero action genre does.
The literary comic writers like Gaiman, not so much.

It often reminds me of that cartoon about calculus where they start with a formula and they get a result.

Hee. Yeah, it really does. Good analogy.

[thanks for letting me get rid of some work stress by critiquing and making fun of the comics! Mucho appreciated.]

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Could he apologize for "Where the Wild Things Are" because that episode is an hour of my life that I'll never get back.

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

Hee! So true. Well, there was that great Spike/Anya interaction, though.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Why would he apologize? That ep was revenge on the network over something. I think making a stink of the Willow/Tara thing? Can't remember.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah but... but... it was BORING!

And it accomplished nothing.

And did I mention boredom? How about pointlessness?

Who said Joss Whedon was allowed to waste our time on his personal temper tantrums? *sigh*