De-Evolution of Angel

[shipperx]

:
So, I'm trying to understand the various Allie and Jeanty Q&A's:

*      In the comics we see Twangel cheering on the anti-Slayer crowd, urging his followers to find stuff to turn people against Slayers, turning up the heat on  the persecution of Slayers, and Twangel announcing that he had to do these things in order  'to bring Buffy low' ( to get her super-special super powers), so he beat Satsu  and plays 'general on the sidelines' figure at the 'epic' battle that kills hundreds of Slayers.


*     Then we get the about-face and are told that Twangel hasn't actually harmed anyone.  He's been trying to help (squints really had to see how.  Still have nothing.  We just need to take on faith that without his invisible interference things would have been worse than they are and worse than the unknown alternative... that we also didn't see.)
 
 

*      But we still had that Twangel had to don the mask to 'bring her low' [though apparently, according to the Q&A and Twangle's 'explanation,'  he actually didn't do anything to accomplish that goal and was secretly 'helping' -- in direct opposition to his stated goal (and even though we never see him helping the slayers) ]  in order to bring about Twilight.


*      Except now Jeanty tells us that Twangel didn't know that Twilight meant space-frakking or the death of the world or... well, let's see....

Looks like Angel basically didn't know anything-- not what Twilight was, how it was activated, what it involved, what it meant, or what it did (nothing wrong with volunteering for a mission like that!).  He did, however, know that it was 'better' than the alternative (whatever that was). So, um... he 'knew'  the alternative was 'worse' than the Twilight that he had no understanding of ... because a talking dog told him so.  Makes perfect sense, right?  Who couldn't be persuaded by that?  He's not stupid at all!  And besides, he didn't actually do anything except the helping stuff that we didn't see.


*      So in pursuing the creation of the Twilight  [that he didn't know what it was but had decided  to  'bring about' by doing ... something (though we're not entirely sure what... which is okay because he had no idea what it would be either) ]

Well, anyway, after he did or didn't do whatever it was he thought he needed to do (but he didn't know what he actually needed to do) to bring about Twilight (whatever he thought that might be), we -- and he -- see that it's destroying the world.  So how does he react?  Twangel wants to stay in his special world even though he can see that it's bringing about the end of the world.  He even gives the circular logic of the present universe being replaced, but Scoobs, who are in the world that is being replaced, would be okay... somehow.  In the dead, replaced world that's coming apart at the seams.  

 

Makes perfect sense, right?  (  Huh?  )
 
 

*    And it's only because Buffy was going back to the world, leaving him in Twilight alone, that Angel decided to go back to the world that was being destroyed, that he didn't seem particularly bothered by it being destroyed (because he wasn't willing to help it until Buffy made him do it) but apparently -- we're now told -- he had no idea was going to be destroyed (other than his standing there witnessing its destruction and not caring very much).  In summary, he didn't actually know what 'bringing about Twilight' actually meant, so he didn't actually intend any of what he did (whatever that was that we're still not clear about).  And he did it just 'cause a talking dog told him to.


*    Then we get Twangel being taken over by Twilight so we can be extra doubly sure that he's really, most sincerely not in control over what he does at the end...even though he's not responsible for any of the rest of it either. 

 

So, let me sum up Twangel's 'character arc' of Season 8:

Angel didn't know anything.   He didn't do anything.  And anything he did do or it looks like he did, he's not actually responsible for except for the 'helping' stuff that we didn't see.  But he's gonna feel really bad about... something (not that he did anything, knew anything, or was actually responsible for anything) so feel really bad for the guy, okay? 

Great character arc, huh.


    

Comments

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

Angel didn't know anything. He didn't do anything. And anything he did do or it looks like he did, he's not actually responsible for.

Oh, hell no. Uh-uh. No way.

Also, NO.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

I'll join in with a resounding chorus of WTF NO.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Well, they don't appear to be overly worried about having a line of logic. At the end of the day, they seem to want us to believe that he was only a little wrong and only kinda responsible. But they never want to make clear responsible for what or exactly how responsible.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

So all that saying everyone was going to die anyway, they really *weren't* going to die anyway?

In the first arc, soldiers are killed to lure Buffy's group to fight some demons which he apparently hung around to watch, he's not responsible for those either?

Seems like he's saying one thing and the entire story is saying something else. Is this more of his interpretation of the story?

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

So all that saying everyone was going to die anyway, they really *weren't* going to die anyway?

Of course not! It was all going to work out... somehow. Now, granted, he had no idea how, but apparently he didn't know anything else either.

This is why everything makes perfect sense and is in character for Angel...

Err... don't metaphorically look at me like that. I don't understand it either.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

"Angel didn't know anything. He didn't do anything. And anything he did do or it looks like he did, he's not actually responsible for."

Yep, that pretty much covers it. Staggering, isn't it...*g*

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

And people want to tell me this is great writing.

People also need to read more books.

[ubi4soft.livejournal.com]

Angel didn't know anything. He didn't do anything. And anything he did do or it looks like he did, he's not actually responsible for.

Isn't it obvious? Angel was possessed the whole time, got de-possessed to have sex with Buffy and then got re-possessed again - the bangel approach. But yeah, he's gonna feel really bad about it.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

And he got really, really, really possessed before he killed Giles. Because we don't want anyone to think he's actually responsible for the choices he makes (though we're kind of hazy on which ones were actual choices and which being the universe's puppet. Then again, some people want us to think that he didn't actually do very much that was wrong [except the possessed bits].

So you see, Angel is really mostly blameless... except when he's "right."

[elisi]

Mostly s8 (and Twangel in particular) makes me feel like this:



Any second now I'll wake up from the nightmare...

By which I mean to say: Excellent post! *applauds*

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

Bwaa-haa-haa for that GIF!

[shakatany.livejournal.com]

It's like they decided to ignore AtS especially the later seasons where the main focus of Angel's unlife is Connor not Buffy. It makes absolutely no sense that he's conspiring to end the world...and Connor.

Shakatany

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

What's this AtS thing you speak of? I bet it has those non-existent and unimportant characters like Cordelia and Wesley. And what do you mean that Angel might hesitate about watching the world burn if his son was in it? That doesn't fit the 'masterpiece' of Season 8, so clearly this Connor-person must not exist.

[shapinglight]

So, let me sum up Twangel's 'character arc' of Season 8:

Angel didn't know anything. He didn't do anything. And anything he did do or it looks like he did, he's not actually responsible for. But he's gonna feel really bad about... something (not that he did anything, knew anything, or was actually responsible for anything) so feel really bad for the guy, okay?

Great character arc, huh.

ROFL. That pretty much sums it up.

Has Jeanty done another Q&A, or is this from old ones?

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah, he did, but I don't remember much from it. I was mostly inspired by Moscow watcher's retelling of it.

This is the most pure distillation of everything I've read of Allie's and Jeanty's Q&A's. Except Allie says Angel bears responsibility for something, problem is if you pay attention to everything else he says you have to wonder what they think he's actually responsible for.

Then again I'm still trying to figure out how seed breaking = betrayal.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Pretty much.

and plays 'general on the sidelines' figure at the 'epic' battle that kills hundreds of Slayers.

And despite the fact that he was in unquestioned command of troops that killed (former) Slayers, and then sent those same troops to be killed, he tells the truth when he says he didn't kill anyone.

Except now Jeanty tells us that Twangel didn't know that Twilight meant space-frakking or the death of the world or...

Except Allie says he did, and considered it an acceptable loss for the greater good.

And in Season 9, his arc is going to be all about atonement for stuff he didn't do, since the stuff he actually did wasn't done. Because when Angel ruins everything Buffy fought for, we should feel sorry for him.

(Damnit, why did this have to happen today, I'm supposed to be kicking off a drabblathon...)

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

we should feel sorry for him.

Well, Kenny was apparently the victim in the Dawn arc... Can't say they aren't consistent in their offensiveness.

[deird1]

AWESOME summary. :)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Thank you! :)

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

To sum up what happened to Angel, replace him with Indiana Jones, and Spielberg and Lucas with Whedon, Allie, and Jeanty here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7Hi4u4AHgM

I give you a warning: It is South Park, crdue, and it seems more disturbing when it's not in English...

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Poor Indy! :(

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

Angel didn't know anything. He didn't do anything. And anything he did do or it looks like he did, he's not actually responsible for.

Doesn't that have a very old, very familiar, ring to it?

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah.

But, apparently, this is the more mature retelling of the same old schtick

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

So how does he react? Twangel wants to stay in his special world even though he can see that it's bringing about the end of the world. He even gives the circular logic of the present universe being replaced but Scoobs, who are in the world that is being replaced, would be okay... somehow... in the dead, replaced world that's coming apart at the seams. Makes perfect sense, right?

Season 8 is making my brain hurt. I need to stop trying to apply logic.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

No. Logic is best not employed here. Apparently Season 8 works best if the characters and readers simply accept whatever they're told this week

[hazel75.livejournal.com]

If you stand on your head for several hours, then turn around in circles for a few more, and then squint sideways whilst doing quaaludes, it makes sense and is excellent storytelling.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

And if you can't stand on your head, turn in circles and squint sideways, you're watching it wrong and interrogating the text from the wrong perspective!

[sp23.livejournal.com]

Face it, it's all Spike's fault anyway.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I'm sure it is somehow.

Damn him for not doing something somehow that stopped this. Besides, Seeing Red! Nothing tops that. Not murder, massive slayer casualties, or apocalypses (apocalypsii?)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

According to Jeanty's Q&As, Faith did something "wonderful" in #39...

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I know. I guess it was to know her place as the perpetual alsoran. Yay?

::pets poor Faith::

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Heh! Best sum up of Angel's S8 arc ever.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

[wildrider.livejournal.com]

I have managed to avoid actually reading any of this, especially since as a fan of AtS first I have been mightily perturbed with them basically throwing out every last inch of character development Angel underwent in his own show and put him right back at the end of Buffy S3. Connor? Who's that? Who is this Nina person? In love with Cordy, who died horribly? Never happened.

I occasionally maintain that, like Phoenix, when Wesley recovered Angel from the bottom of the ocean, he'd already been "replaced" by some strange alien Twilight/Phoenix force and it just needed a catalyst to bring it to the surface. The REAL Angel is still on the ocean floor in a box.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I really cannot even process Comic Angel as Angel. It's pod Angel... from hell dimension 9 from outer space.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Angel didn't know anything. He didn't do anything. And anything he did do or it looks like he did, he's not actually responsible for.

This in a nutshell is why I won't be sticking around for any story on Angel past issue 40. It's also one of the many problems I have with the comics.

So, okay, Dawn, Buffy, and Willow are supposed to feel responsible and take responsibility for everything they've done? Dawn gets punished for cheating on her boyfriend and apologizes to him and that's how she breaks the spell. Buffy is responsible and the betrayer for a)creating the new universe, b)empowering the slayers, and c)leading an army of slayers. Willow is responsible for hooking up with Saga Vasku, trying to protect the seed, and well being super-willow and killing evil Warren.

But Angel is blameless for everything except being easily duped?

And that's not a sexist, misogynistic message? Alrighty then.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Sigh. I forgot Buffy is also responsible for destroying the seed and crippling her world, depriving it of all magic and for Giles' death.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

My reaction to Twangel's arc:

I have a headache now. Can I have some aspirin?

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Aspirin isn't nearly strong enough. Try tequila.

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

You know, when you have to do Q & A's to explain your story? You're doing it wrong.

Especially if they all contradict each other.

::rolls eyes very hard::

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, I do not think it's possible to roll ones eyes hard enough.

[next_to_normal]

Well, that explains EVERYTHING! I don't know what y'all are complaining about. It makes total sense to me!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Heh. So I guess you've been drinking... :)

[xlivvielockex.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this. Honestly. I've read a lot on the comics lately (I avoid the Q&As) and yours is the first one I've read that I actually agree with. It's a horrible rehash of plots we have seen before and this time, I think because of the print media, we can drive trucks through the plotholes. The show always had huge holes in it but the actors, the line delivery, etc made up for it and was easy to fanwank certain things. But this...I think this is finally showing that while Whedon is great at the idea (and in this case, maybe not even that), he needs other writers for execution.