De-Evolution of Angel

[shipperx]

:
So, I'm trying to understand the various Allie and Jeanty Q&A's:

*      In the comics we see Twangel cheering on the anti-Slayer crowd, urging his followers to find stuff to turn people against Slayers, turning up the heat on  the persecution of Slayers, and Twangel announcing that he had to do these things in order  'to bring Buffy low' ( to get her super-special super powers), so he beat Satsu  and plays 'general on the sidelines' figure at the 'epic' battle that kills hundreds of Slayers.


*     Then we get the about-face and are told that Twangel hasn't actually harmed anyone.  He's been trying to help (squints really had to see how.  Still have nothing.  We just need to take on faith that without his invisible interference things would have been worse than they are and worse than the unknown alternative... that we also didn't see.)
 
 

*      But we still had that Twangel had to don the mask to 'bring her low' [though apparently, according to the Q&A and Twangle's 'explanation,'  he actually didn't do anything to accomplish that goal and was secretly 'helping' -- in direct opposition to his stated goal (and even though we never see him helping the slayers) ]  in order to bring about Twilight.


*      Except now Jeanty tells us that Twangel didn't know that Twilight meant space-frakking or the death of the world or... well, let's see....

Looks like Angel basically didn't know anything-- not what Twilight was, how it was activated, what it involved, what it meant, or what it did (nothing wrong with volunteering for a mission like that!).  He did, however, know that it was 'better' than the alternative (whatever that was). So, um... he 'knew'  the alternative was 'worse' than the Twilight that he had no understanding of ... because a talking dog told him so.  Makes perfect sense, right?  Who couldn't be persuaded by that?  He's not stupid at all!  And besides, he didn't actually do anything except the helping stuff that we didn't see.


*      So in pursuing the creation of the Twilight  [that he didn't know what it was but had decided  to  'bring about' by doing ... something (though we're not entirely sure what... which is okay because he had no idea what it would be either) ]

Well, anyway, after he did or didn't do whatever it was he thought he needed to do (but he didn't know what he actually needed to do) to bring about Twilight (whatever he thought that might be), we -- and he -- see that it's destroying the world.  So how does he react?  Twangel wants to stay in his special world even though he can see that it's bringing about the end of the world.  He even gives the circular logic of the present universe being replaced, but Scoobs, who are in the world that is being replaced, would be okay... somehow.  In the dead, replaced world that's coming apart at the seams.  

 

Makes perfect sense, right?  (  Huh?  )
 
 

*    And it's only because Buffy was going back to the world, leaving him in Twilight alone, that Angel decided to go back to the world that was being destroyed, that he didn't seem particularly bothered by it being destroyed (because he wasn't willing to help it until Buffy made him do it) but apparently -- we're now told -- he had no idea was going to be destroyed (other than his standing there witnessing its destruction and not caring very much).  In summary, he didn't actually know what 'bringing about Twilight' actually meant, so he didn't actually intend any of what he did (whatever that was that we're still not clear about).  And he did it just 'cause a talking dog told him to.


*    Then we get Twangel being taken over by Twilight so we can be extra doubly sure that he's really, most sincerely not in control over what he does at the end...even though he's not responsible for any of the rest of it either. 

 

So, let me sum up Twangel's 'character arc' of Season 8:

Angel didn't know anything.   He didn't do anything.  And anything he did do or it looks like he did, he's not actually responsible for except for the 'helping' stuff that we didn't see.  But he's gonna feel really bad about... something (not that he did anything, knew anything, or was actually responsible for anything) so feel really bad for the guy, okay? 

Great character arc, huh.


    

Comments

[elisi]

wrote a fanfic where Dru sired & tortured Dawn and a bunch of slayers as well as Giles. Oh and I had her brutally kill Xander. You can't get darker than that. Well, you can try. Hee. I called Miss Edith's Revenge or My Evil Fanfic.
Sounds brilliant. My darkest fic is 'The Tale of Spike's New Princess' - Buffy isn't resurrected and Spike and Dawn find solace in each others arms. The premise is 'what if Dawn had been Spike's moral compass... Or even the other way round?' It's lyrical and beautiful and disturbing as hell. Flocked 'cause of the rating, but it's one of the fics I'm most proud of!

That's not dark. Annoying. But not dark. And he appears to be doing the same thing with Angel - he was just like Cordy, see! (Give me a break.)
Yes, I can't see it either, unless they don't mean what I mean. And how can Angel's story *become* dark in s9? Isn't it all about redemption now? I just don't understand - which is why I keep having to leave conversations because I don't think they use the same words that I do...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

My fic is flocked too - in part because of the rating - it's NC-17 for violence - a friend of mine dared me to write the scene where Dru tortures Dawn sexually - because originally, I just skipped over it. And they said I should show it. I never finished mine though - got stuck or lost the muse - after Dru sired Giles. That was my last chapter. It was good in places. I did a great fight scene - where Buffy has to fight Dawn and a bunch of slayers who have been turned into vampires in an abandoned church, which she barely escapes. I was curious what type of villain Giles would make (something that Joss was never willing to fully explore). It was a gen fic though - no Angel or Spike in sight. Although I may have brought them in eventually...don't know. I should check out yours sometime. I remember reading a rather dark Spike/Dawn fic - where Dawn is competing with her sister for Spike and kills Buffy or something, can't remember. Went through a period - in which I was seeking out dark angsty fic. Herself_nyc and wisteria have written some of the darkest fics out there. And irkonis (can't remember the spelling) had one on All About Spike that was a reworking of S6 - where the Troika figured out how to control Spike's chip - and it's Willow who gives Spike his soul, after he saves Buffy from being raped by Warren, but not Tara or something like that. It was in some respects better than S6 or at least better plotted.

Yes, I can't see it either, unless they don't mean what I mean. And how can Angel's story *become* dark in s9? Isn't it all about redemption now? I just don't understand - which is why I keep having to leave conversations because I don't think they use the same words that I do...

Having exactly the same reaction. How much darker can we make Angel? He facilitated the torture and deaths of over 200 slayers and innocent people. He invaded and lead a battle against people who had little to no weapons, no powers, weren't hurting anyone, and just peacefully farming in Tibet - resulting in the death and injuries of OZ and his people, including his wife and baby. Then, he instigated sexual relations in order to create "Twilight" and while the world perished below, he attempted to convince Buffy to stay with him in La La Land and create a master better race. He made the human beings who hate magic - look well sane by comparison.

In short, Angel became Hitler - except in regards to women with power who aren't Buffy. So, how you can make that darker? Unless you consider justifying those horrible things or worse white-washing them as if Angel had nothing to do with them, much like he had nothing to do with Jenny Calendar's death or any of the things he did as Angelus - because that wasn't him? That's not darker, that's just annoying and illogical. Also trying to have your cake and eat it too - we'll turn a beloved character into a token allegorical villain, but don't worry, he was possessed, it wasn't his fault but he'll feel really guilty about it and be a hero because he feels guilty for something that he had no control over, because possessed. As if we haven't had that story before? That's not a character arc or a redemption tale -- that's a retcon.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Having exactly the same reaction. How much darker can we make Angel? He facilitated the torture and deaths of over 200 slayers and innocent people. He invaded and lead a battle against people who had little to no weapons, no powers, weren't hurting anyone, and just peacefully farming in Tibet - resulting in the death and injuries of OZ and his people, including his wife and baby. Then, he instigated sexual relations in order to create "Twilight" and while the world perished below, he attempted to convince Buffy to stay with him in La La Land and create a master better race. He made the human beings who hate magic - look well sane by comparison.


Except if you post that to a comic-apologist they'll tell you that none of that actually happened and you're reading it wrong.

Yeah, I don't have an explanation for that either.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Except if you post that to a comic-apologist they'll tell you that none of that actually happened and you're reading it wrong.

Which is insulting. I've had these arguments. Finally told one of my friends that we clearly did not agree on this and never would and arguing about it was pointless. And to stop trying to understand why people didn't see things the same way they did.

We aren't reading it wrong. We are interpreting it differently and seeing different things in it. I admittedly don't understand why people like this...or how they can't be offended by what they are seeing, but I admit I like things that offend people and they hate. Also, well, I don't get why people like Bones and Twilight...so there you go. ;-) I'm guessing they feel the same way - they don't get why I am offended and why I see it the way I do. I told another friend - that the comics were rubbing me the wrong way. This may have a lot to do with how I interpret the character of Angel and how that character and his relationship with Buffy are portrayed in a specific manner (as he is in the comics and in S3 and S4 and S5 and S7 Buffy)that irritates me and pushes my buttons. There's something intrinsically patronizing and sexist about it - that is more or less the same reason I can't read Twilight and I struggle with Bones. But I get that not everything sees that and not everyone thinks the same way I do.
Terribly frustrating though. ;-) Particularly when they are getting the story of their dreams, and I'm getting this horrible story...damn it. It's just not fair! (whines and stomps off like a two year old.) ;-)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

There's something intrinsically patronizing and sexist about it - that is more or less the same reason I can't read Twilight and I struggle with Bones.

I can't speak about Bones. I haven't watched it.

Well, that's not precisely true. I sampled it... and quickly concluded that David Boreanaz was far and away the most interesting thing in it.

That's not a reassuring sign.

[elisi]

Your fic sounds very interesting, and definitely fits my own definition of 'dark'. Mine is here if you ever feel like checking it out - I have a thing for Spike/Dawn, but only when it's completely screwed up. Clearly I am broken.

Having exactly the same reaction. How much darker can we make Angel? He facilitated the torture and deaths of over 200 slayers and innocent people. He invaded and lead a battle against people who had little to no weapons, no powers, weren't hurting anyone, and just peacefully farming in Tibet - resulting in the death and injuries of OZ and his people, including his wife and baby. Then, he instigated sexual relations in order to create "Twilight" and while the world perished below, he attempted to convince Buffy to stay with him in La La Land and create a master better race. He made the human beings who hate magic - look well sane by comparison.
Problem being, it's not being portrayed as dark. The consequences are glossed over (is the world falling to pieces or continuing just fine?), and as for culpability then Angel's motivations & agency are so impossible to pin down that no one can agree. Like you say, it's just annoying and illogical. Actually, I'm oddly enough reminded of this review of 'Amy's Choice' in which the reviewer says this:

'2. In fact, the Doctor's darkness is shown and is ugly and not handwaved or romanticized or apologized for, much in the way that Pouty!Face Ten's Epic Emo Manpain trumped all other ethical/moral/scripting considerations. And Eleven, to his everlasting credit, doesn't make excuses for himself or have them made by adoring companions who keep insisting he's the Lonely Angel Storm at the Oncoming Fire of the Universe.'

I have far fewer problems with Ten than most fans, but I was nodding along with this. Twangel, though, is clearly in the 'Lonely Angel Storm at the Oncoming Fire of the Universe' category (I cannot read that without laughing. Best description ever!), and it is such a SHAME because Angel is such a gorgeously dark and conflicted character, and to see him reduced to this is beyond infuriating.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Problem being it's not portrayed as "dark", the consequences are glossed over...and as for culpability Angel's motivations and agency are impossible to pin down..

Exactly. (Sorry had to paraphrase - work computer won't let me cut and past quotes).

This has been my difficulty with Angel's character and to a degree Whedon's writing in regards to both Angel and to a degree Willow from the beginning. Part of the reason Spike and Faith are such marvelous characters is they are permitted to take responsibility for their actions, their actions aren't handwaved away - they face the consequences and they take on the blame. They pay for them. Others have to "work hard" to forgive them and it "takes time". Compare Spike's arc in S7 to Angel's arc in S3 for example. Angel gets forgiven by everyone after the magic snowfall in Amends (written by Whedon and my least favorite episode of that Season). After that he's back to his place in the team. No problems. While Spike - isn't trusted by anyone, and has to prove himself - and really doesn't do so until he sacrifices himself at the very end. Spike's arc packs an emotional wallop and has a resonance to it that Angel's never has - even though Angel gets his own show, because his redemption is EARNED.
Willow was handled better than Angel, but not better than Faith. Faith equally had to earn people's trust. She went to jail. And when she got out, she had to fight for her place. It wasn't as easy as Angel had it.

Angel keeps getting "get out of jail" free cards. Ohhh...it was the curse, Angel would never have killed Jenny...Angel has been redeemed by magic snow fall. Or Ohhh...it wasn't Angel's fault, he was manipulated by Twilight Universe who came back in time to ensure he created her. It's like Cordelia in S4 - it's not Cordelia's fault - it was Jasmine.
As a result, I stopped caring what happened to Cordy. Kill her? Go ahead.
And right now? Feel the same way about Angel.

While Wes - in direct contrast to Cordy and Angel - was incredibly interesting. His actions he took responsibility for.

Oddly, Ten in Doctor Who never bothered me that much. Possibly because I was never that invested? (shrugs). RTD does have the same flaws in his writing as Whedon. Note Eleven is written by Stephen Moffat who is a much darker and tighter writer than RTD.

It's a good lesson in writing actually - if you decide to have your character do something morally abhorrent or nasty, then you also need to take the time to show a)why the character did it and b)how that character can overcome it, and c) the consequences and how they deal with them. If you can't do those three things? Don't do it. It shouldn't just be done just for shock value or theme or big plot-twist.

[elisi]

Part of the reason Spike and Faith are such marvelous characters is they are permitted to take responsibility for their actions, their actions aren't handwaved away - they face the consequences and they take on the blame. They pay for them. Others have to "work hard" to forgive them and it "takes time".
This. A lot a lot a lot.

Oddly, Ten in Doctor Who never bothered me that much. Possibly because I was never that invested? (shrugs). RTD does have the same flaws in his writing as Whedon.
Actually, I keep thinking about 'Waters of Mars' as the thing that shows up Twangel perfectly. The Doctor falls, but it's beautifully set up and his fall is so in character that it hurts. We can follow him every step of the way, and understand him perfectly. Should there have been more of a follow-up? Possibly, although it is quite well done, IMHO: He falls, and then he has to die. And he tries to run, but his fate catches up with him all the same. Plus, there are no 'outside' factors, nothing to blame it on. Rusty has a lot of flaws, but when he gets something right he's brilliant.

I like your list of three things, and subscribe to it very much.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Actually, I keep thinking about 'Waters of Mars' as the thing that shows up Twangel perfectly. The Doctor falls, but it's beautifully set up and his fall is so in character that it hurts. We can follow him every step of the way, and understand him perfectly.

Yes. Water of Mars worked because we saw the fall every step of the way and we understood it.

It's like in another thread somewhere someone brought up Mitchell's fall in Season 2 of Being Human. His fall made sense. You watched him slip and rationalize first an inch and then a yard. You could see that he didn't have bad intention yet you had the increasing dread of "No! This cannot end well!" so that when he totally falls it's not coming out of nowhere or depending on crappy fanwank after the fact. We knew what flaws got him there, what unintional mistakes. We knew he started with good intentions, and we knew he was entirely responsible for everything that he did. Joss doesn't have those kind of stones where Angel and Buffy is concerned. Instead we get some circle jerk that they're under the influence but not enough to cause consent issues. It's really them, but don't blame this for doing it, they weren't in control (but not so not in cotrol that they were raped). Still don't know how all of that is supposed to hold together. What I do know is that I'm supposed to weep over them feeling guilty over shit they actually did.

[elisi]

Yes. Water of Mars worked because we saw the fall every step of the way and we understood it.
Plus, it was a built-in flaw, first brought to the fore in Ten's very first episode, and damn it felt good to see it come back and bite him properly. (I remember after Waters of Mars aired that *everyone* was going 'OMG 'Handlebars' came true!!! eleventy!!!')

It's like in another thread somewhere someone brought up Mitchell's fall in Season 2 of Being Human.
It was meeeeeee! Because if you want a dark *vampire* story, his is the best and most devastating. Twangel is a cartoon (in every way) in comparison.

Joss doesn't have those kind of stones where Angel and Buffy is concerned. Instead we get some circle jerk that they're under the influence but not enough to cause consent issues. It's really them, but don't blame this for doing it, they weren't in control (but not so not in cotrol that they were raped). Still don't know how all of that is supposed to hold together. What I do know is that I'm supposed to weep over them feeling guilty over shit they actually did.
Right there with you. And I'm really annoyed that Angel didn't bite the dust. Grrr.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

The Water of Mars is an excellent episode and a good example of two things, how a zombie storyline can be done well, and how the Doctor's fall is well shown. We get all answers to the following key questions: 1) what did the Doctor do, 2) why did he do it, 3) what were the consequences of that decision and what was his reaction to it, and 4)how can he overcome it or will he.

Twangle? We don't even know the answer to item one - what did Twangel do.
Most of my discussions with folks, seem to unravel into arguments over what Twangel actually did. Some people think he was little more than a puppet or figurehead, others think he was trying to stop things from getting worse and if he hadn't acted - something dire would have occurred, far more dire than what did (Whatever that is - we are never told), while still others - myself included think he facilitated the deaths of innocents in order to manipulate Buffy into creating a new paradise with him - while the old worn world perished below justifying the action with the view that the world was doomed anyway and the universe chose them to do it so that made it alright. That's the problem - no one agrees on the what. How in the hell can you have a redemptive arc for a character - when people are fighting on whether he's guilty of doing anything outside of being an idiot. (Everyone does agree that he is an idiot. That's about all we appear to agree on at the moment. As to whether he's always been an idiot, the extent to which he is an idiot, or if being an idiot is an excuse - is currently a free for all.) Hee.

[elisi]

That's the problem - no one agrees on the what. How in the hell can you have a redemptive arc for a character - when people are fighting on whether he's guilty of doing anything outside of being an idiot. (Everyone does agree that he is an idiot. That's about all we appear to agree on at the moment. As to whether he's always been an idiot, the extent to which he is an idiot, or if being an idiot is an excuse - is currently a free for all.) Hee.
*snerk* Yeah, my arguments go the same, so I just walk away. :(