Meandering Musings

I think casting of characters like Brienne and Tyrion really do put on display society's changing notions of beauty.

Tyrion is described as monstrous in the face, but honestly -- I can't watch Tyrion smile on the show or give one of those looks and not find him charismatic and attractive.

And frankly I have to wonder if Brienne's form isn't judged harshly because she's living in such a male-centered, misogynistic society where a girl dressing in pants apparently makes people think she's a boy (Arya).

I somehow doubt GRRM intended it, but I can't help feeling that there's some gendered POV warping of how Brienne actually looks. I doubt she's a great beauty in the classical sense, but c'mon, there was a point in time when having tan skin or curly hair meant you were horribly ugly in English society. And gah, there's still a horrible beauty stereotype against gingers and look at Christina Hendricks and Karen Gillan.

So I'm not quite sure how to translate the unobjective

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I agree. I always thought that a lot of the 'ugliness' attributed to Brienne wasn't that she was actively ugly so much as she was so very tall and athletic and walking around doing 'manly' things, that they instantly pigeon-holed her.

Likewise, I thought that (prior to his nose being cut off which, I'm saying now, had better not happen!) a lot of Tyrion's 'ugliness' was due to his 'other'ness with the drawfism and mis-matched eyes (Speaking of, there was some interview on set with Dinklage where he was sporting mis-matched eyes. It was rather distracting. I'm not surprised that the show just said to heck with all the eye-color stuff (both Tyrion's mis-matched eyes and the Targareyn purple eyes... which makes me wonder whether Milensandre [sp] will have red eyes (I'm betting not).

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(Whoops, my last sentence got all chopped up. I think I was trying to say something about subjective beauty standards but oh well!)

I always thought that a lot of the 'ugliness' attributed to Brienne wasn't that she was actively ugly so much as she was so very tall and athletic and walking around doing 'manly' things, that they instantly pigeon-holed her.

THIS. Plus, I'm half-inclined to believe that anyone who doesn't look like Cersei to Jaime is not the epitome of beauty, also. (I'm just starting Feast of Crows so I don't know the whole score yet, but...) And Cersei is decidedly not super tall, super strong (stronger than some men), and also not going around doing ~manly~ feats.

Agreed on Tyrion, too. And gah, I hope they don't do that to his nose. I wonder if the series will stay as true to how gruesome it gets. I mean, obviously some things have to happen for the characters' arcs to make sense (e.g. with Jaime).

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Actually, Martin describes her very specifically. She's horsefaced, buck-toothed, with her eyes her only attractive facial feature. She's not just tall, she's broad and manly and muscled, flat-chested, and iirc her hair is like yellow straw.

It's very clear in the books that it's her entire appearance, not just her height, that makes her ugly, and that she really is ugly, not just different from the reigning standards of female beauty.

I'm willing to see how much they ugly her up for the show, but Brienne's character and actions are completely shaped by her appearance and how that's led people, particularly men, to treat her, and her actions in turn drive some important story points, so if she's merely Hollywood-ugly/plain, it's going to have a real impact on the story's believability.

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Sarah Jessica Parker is technically speaking "horse-faced" -- at least, that's one of the most common ways to describe her according to the people who don't find her attractive (i.e. men I've known who find Beyonce unattractive because her thighs are strong and muscular).

So again, I think there are distortions in play here considering I've stood next to men who have judged women I found attractive enough and they called them disgusting and ugly.

As for the story's impact, it depends on how HBO interprets it. Because they could very well re-interpret it to make the story about a distorted beauty standard hinging upon gender expectations.

Edited Date: 2011-07-09 12:10 am (UTC)

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Brienne is an amalgamation of specifically stated unattractive features and she's clearly meant to be ugly, not just a different kind of attracrive, so the way everyone sees her is more than just a subjective response to one "non-regulation" aspect. There are frequently differences of opinion about how beautiful specific people are. There's no such difference of opinion about Brienne.

And HBO can of course reinterpret the story any way they want to without my OK, but that would be a very different story from the books and not one I personally have any interest in seeing in what's supposed to be a dramatization of some pretty fabulous source material. ASoIaF is basically the Medieval period with magic and different geography. It's not the 21st Century, and grafting on a PC 21st Century story seems pointless to me. If that's what HBO wants to do, I wish they'd created an original series. It's a perfectly legit story to tell, but it's not Martin's story, and I'm on board for Martin's story.

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Honestly, I think we're speaking past each other. I wasn't suggesting grafting on a PC 21st Century story, merely that what characters find unattractive/attractive in different time isn't really a fair measure.

I think the actress in question, if transported back in time to the Medieval period, would face some serious beauty standard judgment (and living in our world today which is far more progressive, I'm sure she still gets judged for her body type by some and deemed ~unattractive~). What a 21st century person may deem too pretty, a medieval person may deem downright ugly, especially when the woman bears a more masculine aesthetic -- that's the distinction I'm drawing.

I imagine if they do some prosthesis to alter her teeth a bit, then it'll work just fine. No beautifying make-up, smack some dirt on her, there you go. The most important aspect to Brienne's physical character, the most difficult aspect to cast for, is her height and strength -- the rest can be achieved with cosmetics and prosthesis.

As for it being Martin's story, this is apparently partly Martin's choice and he seems very happy about it, so I don't see the need to worry about it not being his story (and for that matter, the first series so faithfully follows the first book that I trust the production team here).

People are saying she's too pretty and I'm not seeing that as a barrier; I think beauty can shift dramatically based upon cosmetic changes (based upon my personal experience with it and with others). Indeed, more important than her make-up and the potential addition of prosthetic teeth, I think the actress will need to portray Brienne's uncomfortable stance, her insecurity about her body within her own skin.

And in case it wasn't clear enough, I'm not saying Brienne is a great beauty, a gorgeous Amazon, and the ASOIAF world just doesn't understand. I'm saying that I think she's being demonized in terms of her appearance because she does defy the standards of beauty specifically in terms of gender and beauty expectations for this fantasy world.

Again, this is why I pointed to Tyrion in my initial comment. When the actor laughs or does something charming, I find him attractive. Compare this to Sansa's reaction when the Imp smiles and she cannot hold back her revulsion. If you can find Tyrion attractive while the rest of the ASOIAF world is shivering in revulsion... You see my point, I hope?

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I do see where you're coming from, and I think we mainly differ on a matter of degree and - until I see how she/the makeup artists pull this off - we'll probably just have to agree to disagree. It's actuallly the fact that George said she came in looking like Brienne that gives me hope they'll go in the right direction with her.

I do see one crucial different between Brienne and Tyrion, and yes, I admit I'm partly affected in this by my longstanding admiration for/attraction to Peter Dinklage. But even now, dwarfism is considered so far from the norm that it's covered by the Americans with Disabilities Act, so as a viewer I'm willing to overlook the missing mismatched eyes and accept the possibility that he'll probably keep his nose (though I hope get the crosswise scar) and still accept that he was looked down on and considered repulsive by the general run of people in Westeros - particularly Tywin, with his rigidity, and Sansa, with her worship of perfect knights and their ladies. Brienne's got to be more than just tall and plain for me to buy into the degree of prejudice she faced, even in that world and time.

But...we'll see. I want this to work. I want to really feel Jamie's shock when his body responds to her in the bath. I'm just wary of HBO, knowing their penchant for sex and nakedness and pretty people.

Edited Date: 2011-07-09 01:36 am (UTC)

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*nods*

Oh good, I'm glad. I think you're right, it's a matter of degree. And thanks for sharing that bit about George saying she came in looking like Brienne (I must've missed that).

Having a hefty dose of skepticism when it comes to HBO is just good sense. I'm so tired of the few sexposition scenes; the couple they added to the series were so unnecessary. :-/ Still, there's been a lot of faithful adaptation from book to TV series -- some of the creative choices have been really well done.

Speaking of prettifying examples, we already have one: Iain Glen as Ser Jorah Mormont. He's apparently supposed to be a big, hulking, unattractive bear of a man aka NOT THIS. *pauses to drool* And his story does revolve around his not being attractive (it's partly why Dany isn't attracted to him), but there's not much ado about this shift from book to series because the only person in the ASOIAF world who cares about Jorah's looks is Dany.

I do think there's a significant degree of gendered judgment of Brienne; she's so talented as a knight, strong and loyal, yet the aspect everyone keeps harking to is that she's a masculine-type female. Like with Tyrion, she's doing a man's job yet falling short of the expected standard (kinda like how Dany calls the Unsullied "not men"). There's so much noise made of Brienne being unattractive because as a woman she's expected to be attractive, demure, graceful, and feminine. So yeah, it's back to a matter of degree. I think how the ASOIAF people react to Brienne's looks is more extreme because she's a woman, not solely because she's really that ugly.

Edited Date: 2011-07-09 02:00 am (UTC)

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You're so right about Jorah. ::also drools:: I saw him do a naked cartwheel in The Blue Room, and, um, yeah. The Hound isn't as ugly as I pictured him, either. Though my real disappointment is Ilyn Payne, who's nowhere near as cadaverous and terrifying as he's supposed to be.

Anyway, in the scheme of things we'll know soon enough if they pull this off. Long before we get Boook 6, that's for sure.

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Heh. Jorah is definitely prettier... and I approve. :)

Re: The Hound... I just wish he could find some shampoo! (though everything is going to hell soon, so I expect he'll never bathe.

Re: Illyn Payne I'm still wondering how he's going to click instead of laugh...

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The nose thing is simply because it's such a squick for me that I really rather hope it goes away. Selfishly, I just don't want to have to look at it. But he should definitely have a big scar.

And, I guess, I just put it down to a lot of 'ugly' women on TV who aren't all that ugly.

Look at the difference between Robin Weigert as Robin Weigert:
http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/contributor/1807873435/photo/970408275

And Robin Weigert as Deadwood's Calamity Jane:
http://mmii.info/icons/mgsnakeRPJ22/tv_deadwood-calamityJane.gif

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I'm more than willing to say that dentistry was probably a problem in Westeros, but I always though that Jaime's internal descriptions of Brienne were excessive overkill. (Frankly, it's one of the reasons I've really remained rather neutral to him. I thought his mental descriptions of her had a helping of asshat involved).

And GRRM seems to have a 'thing' for hideousness. It's like he cannot like a character unless their either hideous or until he maims them... which does at time concerns me about what might happen to Dany or Sansa at some point. (::crosses fingers that they aren't also maimed::)

And I have to admit that show-wise I worried that they'd take the description soooo much to heart that they'd cast some female body builder rather than an actress. Hopefully (fingers crossed) she can act.

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I think Brienne's entire history speaks to Jamie's description being pretty accurate. And he's the one person, after all, who doesn't seem to care (or really even to notice) that Tyrion's a dwarf. Admittedly Tyrion's his brother, but Jamie doesn't seem predisposed to judge people by their looks and really has no abiding interest in anyone but Cersei at that point anyway. And it's not as if Brienne was presented to him as a potential bride or something. I also think there may be supporting evidence from Catelyn's point of view, but I can't swear to that without going back and looking. Anyway, as I told

angearia, I want this to work and I'm encouraged that GRRM thinks it will, so...we just have to wait and see.

And hey, there are still lots of people besides Dany and Sansa for GRRM to maim, so maybe he'll focus on the others and leave those two alone.

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Tyrion is his brother. I just don't think Jaime is a reliable narrator when everyone in Westoros is an unreliable narrator. And Jaime's descriptions of Cersei are very physical.

I guess I'm just coming at this from the side of women of great height and non-model small-bonedness towering over men is always seen as a negative. It just is. I've lived a lifetime of towering over men and... they don't like it. To think that her height and physicality in the form of not being a petite , small-boned thing that men feel protective over because they can overpower is no 'small' thing to me and outweighs all the other descriptions.

To me, that was the primary characteristic -- that she's a big-boned woman who towers over the guys and who doesn't fit their gender mold, and I am willing to think that this goes a long way towards making a lot of characters views of her... mainly because that's been something I've seen my entire life. Because she would've been towering over men at the age of ten or eleven and that really is a huge deal to a girl when growing up. And it would've been seen as a negative.

Now, I know that the photos of the actress are glammed up, but I'm going on the assumption that they'll de-glam. But, really, I think this Brienne being 6'-3" really impacts the way that she would've been viewed in that world and viewed by Jaime who, let's face it, has no idea what in the hell to think about a woman who makes him feel like he's not the strapping golden buck of any confrontation.

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I'm not downplaying the effect of her height at all, but it's clearly not the only thing that people respond to when judging her. As I said above, Martin's weighted her down with so much physical baggage that for TV!Brienne to work, she's got to be more than tall and plain. Maege Mormont and her daughter (daughters?) go to war and no one judges them as Brienne is judged, so there's got to be more going on with her.

I mean, I'm, shall we say, round, but my personal experiences aside, if the book said Brienne was fat and horse-faced and buck-toothed, etc., then I wouldn't be satisfied if all they did was cast a fat actress. How much farther they need to go is obviously up for debate, and I'm willing to withhold judgement until I see how it plays out. But I'm in the camp that wants to hew closer to the book's depiction, not further from it.

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It's all rather relative, though. I mean, I remember many calling Lucy Lawless "big" when on Xena... and she was only 5ft 9in. and a size 6. However, for TV, that's positively zaftig.

As a comparison, by the end the entire cast of BtVS was less than 5ft 7in. with poor Amber Bensen looked like the more 'rounded' one at a 'whomping' size 4! She could shop in the petites section and wear sample sizes. (I met her in person once and the woman is tiny... which really made me wonder about the rest of the cast...)

This woman is 6ft 3in (and that's what she's willing to claim so she's probably even taller than that. Men round up... women of a certain height round down) That's going to be quite a difference from 5ft 5in Lena Heady. That's almost but not quite a foot difference in stature.

And, while I realize she isn't Martin ugly, she isn't exactly going to become a Victoria's secret model either - http://spinoff.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Gwendoline-Christie-300x199.png

The only real question for me is whether or not she can act. But there's no way to really know that.

Edited Date: 2011-07-09 02:39 am (UTC)

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I actually think she's quite pretty, though someone who responded to my comment on GRRM's lj linked to a picture (a candid) where she's less so. So...we'll see.

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shapinglight

She's very tall, isn't she?

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Yes. But Brienne is supposed to be. She's supposed to be taller than most men, and this actress would be taller than the actor playing Jaime, which is one of the things they were really looking for.

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queenofattolia.livejournal.com

This casting (and the accompanying pictorial of the actress on the HBO site) annoys the hell out of me. They HAD to find a pretty, "hot" actress to "uglify," which to me suggests that at some point they'll want to clean her up to make her more suitable for the gorgeous Jaime and their upcoming romance/sex. Yeah.

HBO can't resist tampering with source material to "HBO-it-up" (lots of naked girls, prostitute exposition sex, one sexual (doggy-style) position, etc.) and apparently Martin approves of this. Guess Martin is the new Charlaine Harris, and boy, I never thought I'd make that comparison. But True Blood had a decent first season, too, before the writers decided to "improve" upon Harris's story, so I guess GoT isn't immune to similar "improvement."

I was annoyed when Emilia Clarke replaced Tamzin Merchant as Danaerys because I knew it was because Merchant wasn't hot enough for HBO. Fortunately, for all the gratuitous nudity and sexual miming required for the role, Clarke managed to make the character touching, sympathetic and brave because it turns out that besides being hot, she's a fine actress. I have no such illusions about Christie. Try as I might, and I may be looking in the wrong places, but I haven't come across photos of Clarke in pasties and g-string. However, HBO seems to think this is exactly what makes the "beautiful" Christie suitable for Brienne (she doesn't have much of an acting CV) apart from being British and very tall.

I suppose HBO considers Headey and Fairley sufficient for the "real actress" quotient in this series, and every other woman is eye-candy (or potential eye-candy after she's de-uglified) for the fanboys. And to that I say FEH.

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