About Spred...
Aug. 21st, 2003 10:32 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shipperxI'm hesitant to say "go Spred!" There are a couple of reasons for that. The first reason is basically that I haven't seen them on screen together. Yes, JM would have chemistry with thin air, concrete block, or a door. Still, before saying I could hop on the ship, I'd need to see it. The second reason is that I'm still far, far from sure than ME will allow a ship for Spike.
That said, I'm open for the concept of Spred and see some purpose in it even if it's only friendship. In fact, in a lot of ways I'm relieved by the small hints of it. The reason I say that has to do with characterization more than romance.
The Spike that many of us love is the passionate one. I'm not talking sex (of course that works too). I just mean that Spike follows his heart. By so limiting Spike on BtVS to the BtVS "it's all about Buffy" they limited Spike and what he could be on AtS. I really feared they'd just go for Spike as Angel's pain in the ass. And while being Angel's pain in the ass has some appeal, it's not very fulfilling in the long run. For the characterization of Spike to be the Spike we've grown to love, he needs to have someone that he'd protect, someone he'd reveal himself to, someone he cares about. It doesn't even have to be ship. It worked with Dawn in Season 5. He cared about Dawn and that made him reveal things about himself to her. I remember the scene in the cave in Tough Love where he reached out and almost touched her hair. I was moved.
Spike needed someone to care about.
I'm more than okay with Spike caring about Fred. It seems in character. Spike has always gravitated toward women. It's consistent to who he has been.
And... I'm actually going to give M.E. credit for doing something right. [GASP!] They've fairly quickly set up a reason why Spike would care about Fred and what happens to Fred. By the end of Ep 4 she will have done what very, very, VERY few people have ever done. . .she's tried to help him. She's been good to him. And if someone is good to Spike, he appreciates it. I always felt he cared a great deal about Joyce. The scene in Forever where he spoke of how Joyce was a lady. She had been good to him. She was the only person who had never treated him like a freak. Now they've set up that Fred actually cares enough to really and truly try to help Spike and I don't think Spike will forget that. I think after Ep 4, Fred will at the very least be in Dawn/Joyce territory with Spike. Heck, in Ep 4 Fred has already attained Dawn/Joyce status with him. I see nothing bad in that. Spike to be Spike needs someone to care about. I'm glad they've been quick to establish someone that Spike will care about.
This also allows that if something goes badly later in the season that Spike can be as determined to help Fred as she has been to help him. It gives it somewhere to go which, again, I think is a good thing.
Yeah, yeah I know that there are those who feel that Fred has been thrown at every guy and that they'd rather someone new for Spike.
The thing is, I'm more pragmatic than that. You've got 22 episodes. You have Spike basically doing little more than cameo in at least 4 or 5 (he was already doing a cameo in Ep 1) So we're only talking about something like 17 episodes. Of that 7 only a small fraction can be about Spike. That fraction is increased if some are about Fred and Spike is about Fred.
Also, though Spike may be a long time resident of the Whedonverse he's a new resident to AtS. One of the rules of shipping in daytime is that you never bring on a new character to instantly pair them up with another new character. The reason for that is that it takes time to learn to care about a character.
Ah, but Spike is a character we already care about.
Yeah, if you're a BtVS-Spike fan. But what if you're not (hey, it's possible). There actually are markets that don't have UPN that have the WB. It's theoretically possible for there to be AtS fans that weren't BtVS fans. In that case, Spike would be a new character... and Fred is not. Some Spike fans tend to see as Spike being paired up with a second string character who isn't Buffy. But not looking at it from the "Spike has been a resident of the Whedonverse longer than Fred" view, it's possible to see Spike is the new guy on AtS, in which case he's a new character being thrown at Fred. It's a matter of perspective.
Conversely, there actually are Spike fans who have never gotten into AtS. I've actually been surprised by the number of people I've seen admit to having only been BtVS fans and not AtS. So in that case the show manages to introduce Spike and give him an ally. This allows for those BtVS/Spike fans to relatively quickly come to care about a AtS character.
So it actually works both ways.
Yeah, it's possible to say that they've played with pairing Fred with every regular on the show. BUT more often than not, the ships on the shows have been between regulars. Cordy was a regular when paired with Xander. Anya was made a regular when paired with Xander. Oz was a regular. Spike was a regular when paired up with Buffy. Cordy was a regular when paired with Angel. Both Gunn and Fred were regulars when paired together. The only non-regulars were Tara (who should have been a regular and actually was a regular for all intents and purposes. Why the heck wasn't she made a regular?) Lilah (but then she'd been recurring for 4 years so while not a regular she wasn't brought on to be shipped. She was an established character), and Kennedy (we won't think about her if you don't mind).
The truth is you've got actors that you've got to pay for each and every episode. Those actors play characters that need stories. Letting those actors play off of one another is something of a no-brainer.
While I'm far from convinced they actually will ship Spred, I still give that higher odds than their ever, ever casting someone for Spike. They just aren't going to do that. And even if they did do that (which they won't) you'd be talking about, what? something where it would be as rushed and contrived as Killow. Hi. How Are You? Can I jump in your bed? Recurring characters rarely get signed for more than about 6 eps a season and, unless they pull an Andrew or Kennedy (blech!) they don't get much more than that. There really can't be much of a story developed. If you would rather there be friendship (or more) for Spike then the chances of even a half decent story for it are better with a regular than with a manufactured recurring character. More airtime = more development. More development is possible if the character is there each and every week. Ergo, chances of satisfying development are greater with a regular character. It makes sense as far as story construction goes and efficient use of contracted actors.
Of course there's the Spuffy part of it. This is why I'm not sure they'll actually give Spred. I think they'll probably keep Spike shipless so they can play that stupid triangle should SMG show up. However, short of hell freezing over, I really don't see them paying off Spuffy. My poor widdle Spuffy heart has been well and truly slaughtered. At this point even if they paired Spuffy, it would feel like being given chicken salad that has been left out a too long (and that's even if it's one of Roly Poly's cury chicken salad with avocado, pineapple, and mango... which I adore. . .but probably wouldn't eat if it had been out on the counter a bit too long). For myself there have been too many disappointments with Spuffy. There could never be a payoff big enough to be worth all the pain that the ship has been put through. And that's if I believed that ME would ever pay off that ship in the first place...which I don't.
And that's if I still found it possible to wrap my head around Buffy growing up enough for her to have any idea in hell about what love is. The girl has issues and baggage enough to sink any ship. I don't think I can ever really look at re-Spuffy as a good idea now simply because I've ceased to believe that Buffy has it in her to actually be anything but what she is. If they paired them and they went off screen, in the widdle Sunnydale in my head she'd revert to her self righteous, using self because we know her epiphanies never stick. The relationship would be what it always was -- Spike as adoring supplicant to Lady Bitch Bountiful Buffy. I believed in Spuffy once upon a time, but M.E. has beaten it out of me.
Now, does any of this mean I believe they will actuall do Spred? No. Not really. I think it's a tease. That's what M.E. does with Spike. They tease. However, even if it's only allowed to be friendship, I think that will be a good thing because I think to get the Spike who leads with his heart there needs to be someone Spike cares about. Fred has established reasons why Spike would care about her. It makes sense. Hey, that's better than a lot of what M.E. does.
And, beyond that, there's actually some sense to it. Fred actually falls more into Spike's "type" than Buffy. She's the same dark haired mold as Cecily and Dru. There actually is a bit of Dru to her. Fred babbles. She was once insane (like Spike. They can bond). Hell, Spike and Fred both have food obsessions (hers is tacos). And Spike is a bit like a cross between Wes/Gunn. Fred could get her Brit Guy who can be a touch geeky, and she can have the kick butt muscle stud. And given 5.4, she probably is getting a hint of the gallant sap that Spike can be as well. So within character it would make some degree of sense.
Still, I don't think they'll do an actual, bonafide ship. They'll just sort of leave it as something ambiguous to tease the "I want Spike LOVED, damnit!" fans. But M.E. pay something off? HA! We might get a friendship out of it, though. . .which is more than they've done for poor Spike in the last 4+ years.
That said, I'm open for the concept of Spred and see some purpose in it even if it's only friendship. In fact, in a lot of ways I'm relieved by the small hints of it. The reason I say that has to do with characterization more than romance.
The Spike that many of us love is the passionate one. I'm not talking sex (of course that works too). I just mean that Spike follows his heart. By so limiting Spike on BtVS to the BtVS "it's all about Buffy" they limited Spike and what he could be on AtS. I really feared they'd just go for Spike as Angel's pain in the ass. And while being Angel's pain in the ass has some appeal, it's not very fulfilling in the long run. For the characterization of Spike to be the Spike we've grown to love, he needs to have someone that he'd protect, someone he'd reveal himself to, someone he cares about. It doesn't even have to be ship. It worked with Dawn in Season 5. He cared about Dawn and that made him reveal things about himself to her. I remember the scene in the cave in Tough Love where he reached out and almost touched her hair. I was moved.
Spike needed someone to care about.
I'm more than okay with Spike caring about Fred. It seems in character. Spike has always gravitated toward women. It's consistent to who he has been.
And... I'm actually going to give M.E. credit for doing something right. [GASP!] They've fairly quickly set up a reason why Spike would care about Fred and what happens to Fred. By the end of Ep 4 she will have done what very, very, VERY few people have ever done. . .she's tried to help him. She's been good to him. And if someone is good to Spike, he appreciates it. I always felt he cared a great deal about Joyce. The scene in Forever where he spoke of how Joyce was a lady. She had been good to him. She was the only person who had never treated him like a freak. Now they've set up that Fred actually cares enough to really and truly try to help Spike and I don't think Spike will forget that. I think after Ep 4, Fred will at the very least be in Dawn/Joyce territory with Spike. Heck, in Ep 4 Fred has already attained Dawn/Joyce status with him. I see nothing bad in that. Spike to be Spike needs someone to care about. I'm glad they've been quick to establish someone that Spike will care about.
This also allows that if something goes badly later in the season that Spike can be as determined to help Fred as she has been to help him. It gives it somewhere to go which, again, I think is a good thing.
Yeah, yeah I know that there are those who feel that Fred has been thrown at every guy and that they'd rather someone new for Spike.
The thing is, I'm more pragmatic than that. You've got 22 episodes. You have Spike basically doing little more than cameo in at least 4 or 5 (he was already doing a cameo in Ep 1) So we're only talking about something like 17 episodes. Of that 7 only a small fraction can be about Spike. That fraction is increased if some are about Fred and Spike is about Fred.
Also, though Spike may be a long time resident of the Whedonverse he's a new resident to AtS. One of the rules of shipping in daytime is that you never bring on a new character to instantly pair them up with another new character. The reason for that is that it takes time to learn to care about a character.
Ah, but Spike is a character we already care about.
Yeah, if you're a BtVS-Spike fan. But what if you're not (hey, it's possible). There actually are markets that don't have UPN that have the WB. It's theoretically possible for there to be AtS fans that weren't BtVS fans. In that case, Spike would be a new character... and Fred is not. Some Spike fans tend to see as Spike being paired up with a second string character who isn't Buffy. But not looking at it from the "Spike has been a resident of the Whedonverse longer than Fred" view, it's possible to see Spike is the new guy on AtS, in which case he's a new character being thrown at Fred. It's a matter of perspective.
Conversely, there actually are Spike fans who have never gotten into AtS. I've actually been surprised by the number of people I've seen admit to having only been BtVS fans and not AtS. So in that case the show manages to introduce Spike and give him an ally. This allows for those BtVS/Spike fans to relatively quickly come to care about a AtS character.
So it actually works both ways.
Yeah, it's possible to say that they've played with pairing Fred with every regular on the show. BUT more often than not, the ships on the shows have been between regulars. Cordy was a regular when paired with Xander. Anya was made a regular when paired with Xander. Oz was a regular. Spike was a regular when paired up with Buffy. Cordy was a regular when paired with Angel. Both Gunn and Fred were regulars when paired together. The only non-regulars were Tara (who should have been a regular and actually was a regular for all intents and purposes. Why the heck wasn't she made a regular?) Lilah (but then she'd been recurring for 4 years so while not a regular she wasn't brought on to be shipped. She was an established character), and Kennedy (we won't think about her if you don't mind).
The truth is you've got actors that you've got to pay for each and every episode. Those actors play characters that need stories. Letting those actors play off of one another is something of a no-brainer.
While I'm far from convinced they actually will ship Spred, I still give that higher odds than their ever, ever casting someone for Spike. They just aren't going to do that. And even if they did do that (which they won't) you'd be talking about, what? something where it would be as rushed and contrived as Killow. Hi. How Are You? Can I jump in your bed? Recurring characters rarely get signed for more than about 6 eps a season and, unless they pull an Andrew or Kennedy (blech!) they don't get much more than that. There really can't be much of a story developed. If you would rather there be friendship (or more) for Spike then the chances of even a half decent story for it are better with a regular than with a manufactured recurring character. More airtime = more development. More development is possible if the character is there each and every week. Ergo, chances of satisfying development are greater with a regular character. It makes sense as far as story construction goes and efficient use of contracted actors.
Of course there's the Spuffy part of it. This is why I'm not sure they'll actually give Spred. I think they'll probably keep Spike shipless so they can play that stupid triangle should SMG show up. However, short of hell freezing over, I really don't see them paying off Spuffy. My poor widdle Spuffy heart has been well and truly slaughtered. At this point even if they paired Spuffy, it would feel like being given chicken salad that has been left out a too long (and that's even if it's one of Roly Poly's cury chicken salad with avocado, pineapple, and mango... which I adore. . .but probably wouldn't eat if it had been out on the counter a bit too long). For myself there have been too many disappointments with Spuffy. There could never be a payoff big enough to be worth all the pain that the ship has been put through. And that's if I believed that ME would ever pay off that ship in the first place...which I don't.
And that's if I still found it possible to wrap my head around Buffy growing up enough for her to have any idea in hell about what love is. The girl has issues and baggage enough to sink any ship. I don't think I can ever really look at re-Spuffy as a good idea now simply because I've ceased to believe that Buffy has it in her to actually be anything but what she is. If they paired them and they went off screen, in the widdle Sunnydale in my head she'd revert to her self righteous, using self because we know her epiphanies never stick. The relationship would be what it always was -- Spike as adoring supplicant to Lady Bitch Bountiful Buffy. I believed in Spuffy once upon a time, but M.E. has beaten it out of me.
Now, does any of this mean I believe they will actuall do Spred? No. Not really. I think it's a tease. That's what M.E. does with Spike. They tease. However, even if it's only allowed to be friendship, I think that will be a good thing because I think to get the Spike who leads with his heart there needs to be someone Spike cares about. Fred has established reasons why Spike would care about her. It makes sense. Hey, that's better than a lot of what M.E. does.
And, beyond that, there's actually some sense to it. Fred actually falls more into Spike's "type" than Buffy. She's the same dark haired mold as Cecily and Dru. There actually is a bit of Dru to her. Fred babbles. She was once insane (like Spike. They can bond). Hell, Spike and Fred both have food obsessions (hers is tacos). And Spike is a bit like a cross between Wes/Gunn. Fred could get her Brit Guy who can be a touch geeky, and she can have the kick butt muscle stud. And given 5.4, she probably is getting a hint of the gallant sap that Spike can be as well. So within character it would make some degree of sense.
Still, I don't think they'll do an actual, bonafide ship. They'll just sort of leave it as something ambiguous to tease the "I want Spike LOVED, damnit!" fans. But M.E. pay something off? HA! We might get a friendship out of it, though. . .which is more than they've done for poor Spike in the last 4+ years.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-23 02:38 am (UTC)However, not really concerned with 'ships etc much at the moment. I just want Spike to get a body that can be 'shipped, and am becoming increasingly gloomy about the chances of it. If there isn't some sign of a change in his status before JM leaves to film that movie, then I think I'll have about given up.