Is Cecily Halfrek?
Mar. 25th, 2005 09:59 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shipperxI feel sort of Carrie Bradshaw/ Sex in the City-like starting a post with a question (and since I've been watching the series for the first time [yeah, too stingy for HBO] I probably should do a post on the subject sometime). Anyway, is William's Cecily the demon Halfrek?
I mean clearly in my current WIP, Cecily is Halfrek and Halfrek is Cecily. But in the larger scope of the Whedonverse, is Cecily Halfrek?
I honestly hadn't realized that there were such strong feelings on the subject until I read a debate about it on BAPS a few weeks ago. I even saw an icon about it on someone's LJ where the icon explained various points of canon and the icon flashed a point blank, stated as a fact "Halfrek was not Cecily" dictum as if there really is a definitive answer.
Now, personally, I can go either way. Yeah, I wrote Perfect Vengeance as Cecily being Halfrek, but that's because it was a really good way to explain time travel. Plus I had one of those flashes of inspiration about the plot and it hinged on Halfrek being Cecily. But that's fanfic. In the grand scheme of Buffyverse canon, I see this as a point that can easily be argued either way.
The thing is, there are people who are surprisingly passionate on the subject as both the icon and the BAPS debate make clear. Now, the BAPS debate started with discussion of the upcoming Peter David "Spike" comic. (Spoiler Info in Peter David's Post Here: http://peterdavid.malibulist.com/archives/002714.html ) Peter David is taking the stance that Cecily was Halfrek. This started a debate where many people stated categorically that Halfrek simply was not Cecily and that what's on the show in Season 7 proved it as canon.
I'm still shaking my head wondering how. The point many people make is that Halfrek existed in the Crimean war, which predates FFL and therefore Cecily could not possibly be Halfrek.
Um... how does that prove that Cecily wasn't Halfrek? It just means that she would have been a demon prior to FFL. . .which seems to be the gist of it. Some people are very attached to FFL being exactly as it was with Cecily being a vain young woman. Which, unquestionably, was the original intention of FFL. Yes, there are logistical problems with a Victorian lady having been a demon. But Anyanka inserted herself easily enough into Cordelia's life. So it isn't impossible for Halfek to have inserted herself into the lives of that particular circle of Victorian people. A lot of the resistance to the concept of Halfrek=Cecily is that people then seem to assume that Cecily's set-down of William and the subsequent vamping would have been part of some demonic vengeance. You know, even if she was Halfrek, nothing about the scene indicates it was anything but a carelessly cruel statement on Cecily's part. Even if she was Halfrek, it doesn't mean it was part of Vengeance. So I don't think Cecily's possible demonic status substantially effects William's story. I don't think Cecily OR Halfrek would have given a damn about William one way or another. He was just careless roadkill on the highway of life. So (for me) it's never been an issue. I honestly don't have any real investment either way. I can see them as separate or the same and it's purely within the context of the story in question.
I'm just curious about why so many people feel that there was a hard and fast answer to the question within the show. The Crimean War didn't prove anything (except someone on BAPS produced quotes from Drew Goddard that made me laugh because, lord, Mutant Enemy were idiots with history! Apparently, they had considered having Anyanka and Halfrek in the French Revolution, but that idea was dispensed because they didn't want to close off the avenue that Halfrek was indeed Cecily -- heck, there actually was an interview with Marti once where she said that Halfrek WAS Cecily. Anyway, according to Goddard they deliberately chose the Anyanka/Halfrek scene NOT to be in the French Revolution so as to not run contrary to FFL and the possibility that Halfrek was Cecily. So they chose the Russian Communist Revolution. . .
er. . .except the Crimean war wasn't the Communist Revolution, people! Bwha! Joss Shows + History = Non-Mixy.
So here we are with a lot of fans hanging a definitive "Cecily couldn't be Halfrek" on a scene set in a time period which was mis-identified by Mutant Enemy. Turns out that even when ME tries to think things through, they really weren't very careful about it. While trying to prevent contradicting FFL and OaFA... they "contradicted" FFL and OaFA, primarily because ME notoriously sucked at history. Heh.
Anyway, Perfect Vengeance aside, I have no emotional investment or hard, fast concept of whether Cecily was Halfrek or not. I think it's something fuzzy enough in the Whedonverse that solid arguments can be made either way and that there really isn't a definitive answer on the subject. I'm just sort of surprised that there are so many people think that canon is clear on the subject.
Then again, considering the canon debates (deathmatches) the Whedonverse regularly caused and causes, I can't imaging why I'm surprised that there's apparently controversy surrounding even bit characters like Cecily and/or Halfrek. :)
I mean clearly in my current WIP, Cecily is Halfrek and Halfrek is Cecily. But in the larger scope of the Whedonverse, is Cecily Halfrek?
I honestly hadn't realized that there were such strong feelings on the subject until I read a debate about it on BAPS a few weeks ago. I even saw an icon about it on someone's LJ where the icon explained various points of canon and the icon flashed a point blank, stated as a fact "Halfrek was not Cecily" dictum as if there really is a definitive answer.
Now, personally, I can go either way. Yeah, I wrote Perfect Vengeance as Cecily being Halfrek, but that's because it was a really good way to explain time travel. Plus I had one of those flashes of inspiration about the plot and it hinged on Halfrek being Cecily. But that's fanfic. In the grand scheme of Buffyverse canon, I see this as a point that can easily be argued either way.
The thing is, there are people who are surprisingly passionate on the subject as both the icon and the BAPS debate make clear. Now, the BAPS debate started with discussion of the upcoming Peter David "Spike" comic. (Spoiler Info in Peter David's Post Here: http://peterdavid.malibulist.com/archives/002714.html ) Peter David is taking the stance that Cecily was Halfrek. This started a debate where many people stated categorically that Halfrek simply was not Cecily and that what's on the show in Season 7 proved it as canon.
I'm still shaking my head wondering how. The point many people make is that Halfrek existed in the Crimean war, which predates FFL and therefore Cecily could not possibly be Halfrek.
Um... how does that prove that Cecily wasn't Halfrek? It just means that she would have been a demon prior to FFL. . .which seems to be the gist of it. Some people are very attached to FFL being exactly as it was with Cecily being a vain young woman. Which, unquestionably, was the original intention of FFL. Yes, there are logistical problems with a Victorian lady having been a demon. But Anyanka inserted herself easily enough into Cordelia's life. So it isn't impossible for Halfek to have inserted herself into the lives of that particular circle of Victorian people. A lot of the resistance to the concept of Halfrek=Cecily is that people then seem to assume that Cecily's set-down of William and the subsequent vamping would have been part of some demonic vengeance. You know, even if she was Halfrek, nothing about the scene indicates it was anything but a carelessly cruel statement on Cecily's part. Even if she was Halfrek, it doesn't mean it was part of Vengeance. So I don't think Cecily's possible demonic status substantially effects William's story. I don't think Cecily OR Halfrek would have given a damn about William one way or another. He was just careless roadkill on the highway of life. So (for me) it's never been an issue. I honestly don't have any real investment either way. I can see them as separate or the same and it's purely within the context of the story in question.
I'm just curious about why so many people feel that there was a hard and fast answer to the question within the show. The Crimean War didn't prove anything (except someone on BAPS produced quotes from Drew Goddard that made me laugh because, lord, Mutant Enemy were idiots with history! Apparently, they had considered having Anyanka and Halfrek in the French Revolution, but that idea was dispensed because they didn't want to close off the avenue that Halfrek was indeed Cecily -- heck, there actually was an interview with Marti once where she said that Halfrek WAS Cecily. Anyway, according to Goddard they deliberately chose the Anyanka/Halfrek scene NOT to be in the French Revolution so as to not run contrary to FFL and the possibility that Halfrek was Cecily. So they chose the Russian Communist Revolution. . .
er. . .except the Crimean war wasn't the Communist Revolution, people! Bwha! Joss Shows + History = Non-Mixy.
So here we are with a lot of fans hanging a definitive "Cecily couldn't be Halfrek" on a scene set in a time period which was mis-identified by Mutant Enemy. Turns out that even when ME tries to think things through, they really weren't very careful about it. While trying to prevent contradicting FFL and OaFA... they "contradicted" FFL and OaFA, primarily because ME notoriously sucked at history. Heh.
Anyway, Perfect Vengeance aside, I have no emotional investment or hard, fast concept of whether Cecily was Halfrek or not. I think it's something fuzzy enough in the Whedonverse that solid arguments can be made either way and that there really isn't a definitive answer on the subject. I'm just sort of surprised that there are so many people think that canon is clear on the subject.
Then again, considering the canon debates (deathmatches) the Whedonverse regularly caused and causes, I can't imaging why I'm surprised that there's apparently controversy surrounding even bit characters like Cecily and/or Halfrek. :)
