Can We Let Go of Spuffy?

[shipperx]

I've just been wandering around the Spike-sites. So many people are in so many different places where Spuffy is concerned. Honestly, I think ME has dug themselves yet another hole they'll never dig themselves out of. Yet again they've fractured the audience.

There are people who just will. not. let. go. of Spuffy. I sympathize with those people. It's something so many of us have wanted for so long. I understand those unwilling to let go of it. . . although there seem to be varying degrees of this. There are those who really do see or at least convince themselves that they see real love and real pay off in "Chosen." I think this is the area that I understand the least. We've been bludgeoned over the head from everyone from SMG, to DB, to JM, etc that Buffy didn't love Spike. JM has been quite emphatic. I'm not sure how those who insist that Spike was lying when he said "no, you don't" reconcile the "lie" with the fact that JM says straight out that Spike believed he was saying the truth. How does one maintain that view? I tend to be the most confused by those Spuffies who feel that there's something in Chosen for Spuffy to be satisfied with. I'm confused because I walk away from Chosen so completely dissatisfied. Hell, I walk away from Chosen downright BITTER.

I understand a bit better those Spuffies who wanted Spuffy and can't quite kill the want. They know Spuffies got screwed by JW in in a big way. They know the chances of B/A being rammed down our throats is a pretty high, and yet they have that valiant little Spuffy heart that doesn't want to die and sometimes still hopes and against hope. I can understand that position. I really do. I'm not really in that place emotionally, but I can understand it.

I get how those Spuffies really don't want to see Spike move on. I understand how so much emotion was invested in Spuffy that they just can't really see Spike changing directions and going with someone else. This makes sense to me as well. I'm not in that place emotionally either, but I understand it.

In trying to understand that position I've noted that a lot of people viewed S/B in some very different ways. A lot of it seems to come back to S/B being "epic." Oddly, this is what I've seen a lot of B/Aers say as well "it was epic." I've seen sort of the same thing in some descriptions of how compelling the whole "Two superheroes" thing was. I understand the allure of that to an extent. I just find myself somewhat surprised that there is an overlap in concept here. B/A and S/Bers have been at each other's throats for so long that I sort of never quite grasped that there was some overlap in theory (if in no way in practice) between the two groups. There is the pull of the larger than life/grandscale/epic.

Except, I'm not in that place either.

Honestly, I'm in a deeply bitter place where BtVS is concerned. My overriding feeling is a level of contempt for the character of Buffy that I almost have to restrain myself from expressing on boards (and I'm pretty darn expressive on boards).

It's just that when I think back to all the reasons I got on the Spuffy ship and look at where the story ended... I end up wondering what there is to hold onto. When I started wanting Spuffy in Season 5 it was before the complete and total selfish bitchification of Buffy. The Buffy I see at the end of Chosen is someone so hard, so cold, so empty that I can't bring myself to like her. I just can't. I find myself thinking that Buffy is permanently broken. That her humanity has been shut off for too long and she's only a character who deals in appearances and fantasies but who lacks all emotional substance. I think she's relationship poison. . .and these days I really, REALLY don't want her with Spike. Ever.

I don't want her with Angel either. Yeah, I think she'd be just as destructive to Angel. But it's also that I also would puke seeing her with Angel. And... I still think the bitca is poison. I don't want BUFFY to have a happy ending. When I think of her, I think of the person she became and I 've sort of left her there mentally... and she isn't someone that I'd want to end up any way but alone. Save all male characters! Spare them Buffy!

Yeah, I understand the resistance to Spred. But honestly, I want Spike to move on. I want Angel to move on. I want it YESTERDAY and I'm willing to take any damn excuse for it that I can find. I want Buffy to show up and discover that she isn't NEEDED by either of these guys. They are capable of a hell of a lot better existence without her twisted, half assed mind games and dewy eyed crap.

I want Spike to fall in love with someone else. Really. I do. I mean it. He deserves it. And what's more I want him to discover that love means someone actually treating you like a PERSON not a tool or thing. I want someone to treat him decently and his only discovered belatedly DUH! That IS love! Not the hurt. Not the pain. Not the being beaten and insulted. Not being USED. Love is someone giving a damn what YOU feel and not just someone giving their all to another person. This is why I don't hold onto Spuffy.

I realized that earlier tonight when reading posts about the "epic" nature of Spuffy. I never really was shipping because of the "epic." What I shipped was "it's not pretty but it's REAL." I wanted a REAL relationship--flawed, passionate, give and take, equals. No pedestals. No stary eyed soulmate CRAP. I wanted Spuffy to see each other -- good and bad-- and love inspite of it. I wanted that sortof thing. Not epic. Earthy.

Well, I didn't get it. Spike idolized someone who treated him 99% of the time like shit.

So really, I don't care about "epic" or superheroes. What I wanted was flawed and "messy but real."

That can still happen...with someone else. So, while I sympathize with those who hold onto Spuffy. (And while I wholly support the continued FANFIC of Buffy where the "flawed but real" can still take shape), I'm just not one of those people who root for re-Spuffy, or the A/B/S triangle, or "Spike alone because he wouldn't abandon his love for Buffy." Buffy doesn't merit Spike staying alone forever. Spike needs to be freed of some of the horrible things she's said to him in the past. He needs someone to look at him and see someone worth loving... and treat him accordingly. Buffy may-- MAY-- have at long last seen that Spike was worth loving... but she never treated him that way and for that reason I don't find her memory one that needs to be honored. I don't think she's off in Europe mourning Spike. I don't think she was mourning Spike the week after he died. Hell, she was smiling over his grave as the episode ended. This isn't something Spike should be stuck honoring. My fondest dream would be Buffy show up and Spike realize that what they had wasn't worth clinging to. There are a lot of "might have beens" there... but there's also so much shit that I really want him free... and I want someone to LOVE HIM. It's what I need to feel any satisfaction with his story (yes, I know I'm doomed to disappointment. It's not going to happen. I'm well aware of that). But I just have no love of Spuffy left even though I understand those who do. It's just somewhere along the line I grew to hate the bitch. I would rather she show up and find herself as obselete as I think she is (and yes, I know I'm doomed to disappointment. It's not going to happen. I'm well aware of that).

It's just that I think my wittle Spuffy heart has finally well and truly died. I find I want something better for the character of Spike than being Buffy's bitch.

(And I'm not sure of where all this passion is coming from. I just don't "get" Buffy any more. I squint and just don't find her to be in any way likable any longer).

Comments

[miggy.livejournal.com]

Yeah. What you said.

And... I still think the bitca is poison.

I, too, think she's permanently broken. She's shown no desire to change, and only the barest, transitory moments of understanding that there's even anything wrong with her.

From this point out, her life can go two ways: she can walk away from her friends and past, and become a flighty, shallow girl shopping the streets of Europe without any concern for what's going on in the world, or she can deal with her idiotic actions in Chosen.

If she takes the first route, she may or may not get into the habit of acting like a decent person. But the world she's leaving behind... hundreds of loose cannons without any guiding force, or even understanding of their sudden, freakish strength and desire to kill. If she leaves her actions for someone else to deal with, to turn toward good the power rooted in demonic strength that's popped up all over the globe, when it's entirely her fault that this huge change has been levied on the world... that's the height of irresponsibility and self-involvement. Shockingly so.

If she sucks it up and deals with what she's done, I don't see her changing her ways at all. She'll still use stress as an excuse to descend into abusive behavior. So she's responsible to the greater cause, but still poison.

Gotta love the lose-lose situation I see at the end of the show.

(The online RPG I'm planning with the Buffy rulebook is set post-Chosen. Buffy's going to be a NPC. I've told everyone what I'm going to do with her -- the second scenario -- as set-up to get the original characters and two existing ones to go off on their own. Everyone agreed that it sounded pretty realistic for what you could expect from her, so it's not just me.)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I, too, think she's permanently broken. She's shown no desire to change, and only the barest, transitory moments of understanding that there's even anything wrong with her.

This is one of my primary beefs with the character. They did it to her in Season 6 where she was shown to be incapable of change. She'd have a Buffiphany and then just keep right on going in the destructive behavior. Any sense of responsibility was fleeting (at best) and any any attempt to actually change was non-existent.

But the world she's leaving behind... hundreds of loose cannons without any guiding force, or even understanding of their sudden, freakish strength and desire to kill. If she leaves her actions for someone else to deal with, to turn toward good the power rooted in demonic strength that's popped up all over the globe, when it's entirely her fault that this huge change has been levied on the world... that's the height of irresponsibility and self-involvement. Shockingly so.

If she sucks it up and deals with what she's done, I don't see her changing her ways at all. She'll still use stress as an excuse to descend into abusive behavior. So she's responsible to the greater cause, but still poison.

That's my other problem with her. They didn't mean to do it... it's just sometimes M.E. have their heads up their asses. The thing is, no matter what their conscious intentions, over the years they have shown Buffy rely on violence (and temper tantrums) as her method of coping. When in stress... she hits and kills. It's not even something that started with Spike. She hit Angel too (he just called her on it). There's a scene early on in the series where they question that she solves everything with her fists. Buffy hits. Buffy hit Spike to shut him up, to not confront her with harsh truths, to take out her SELF hate. What the hell IS that but abuse? And don't think she changed. She hauled off and punched Faith for telling the truth in Dirty Girls. That's the way Buffy deals... and that's the way abusers act. They hit then say "I didn't mean to>" "You drove me to it" "It's your fault" or "You deserve it."

M.E. didn't mean to do it. They were blinded by the petite blond form. But strip it of Buffy's cutesy pie features (or better yet reverse the sexes) and it becomes horrifyingly obvious what the mindset behind her actions were... and behind ME. It's part of why I'm so appalled by M.E. They fostered an abusive mentality and don't even SEE it... and I find that scary.

[bubonicplague.livejournal.com]

I agree with every single god damned word.

[queenofattolia.livejournal.com]

The Buffy I see at the end of Chosen is someone so hard, so cold, so empty that I can't bring myself to like her. I just can't. I find myself thinking that Buffy is permanently broken. That her humanity has been shut off for too long and she's only a character who deals in appearances and fantasies but who lacks all emotional substance.

This is what gets me -- the die-hard B/S shippers who still think Buffy is a lovable person worthy of Spike's adoration. Excuse me? I wouldn't treat a dog the way she treated him. But oh yeah -- I forgot -- she's a "hero" and that absolves her of any "bad behavior" where Spike was concerned.

I don't want her with Angel either. Yeah, I think she'd be just as destructive to Angel.

And for the life of me, I don't know why he'd want her anymore! She's awful! She hadn't grown one iota since they were together (well, that's not entirely true; she got much worse), and he has, somewhat.

And... I still think the bitca is poison. I don't want BUFFY to have a happy ending. When I think of her, I think of the person she became and I 've sort of left her there mentally... and she isn't someone that I'd want to end up any way but alone. Save all male characters! Spare them Buffy!

You know, I'm wondering if this isn't entirely out of the realm of possibility, considering the antipathy between Whedon and SMG there at the end. I can just imagine him bringing her back just to stick it to her and her character, without her being the wiser (she's not very bright, and I'm sure at that point she'll be blinded by the prospect of an actual job and money). Heh. If only.

Yeah, I understand the resistance to Spred.

I don't -- she's kind and smart and pretty, the operative word here being "kind." She'd be a tonic. She'd be good for him. How refreshing that would be!

But honestly, I want Spike to move on. I want Angel to move on. I want it YESTERDAY and I'm willing to take any damn excuse for it that I can find. I want Buffy to show up and discover that she isn't NEEDED by either of these guys. They are capable of a hell of a lot better existence without her twisted, half assed mind games and dewy eyed crap.

From your PC to Whedon's ears, kid.

I want Spike to fall in love with someone else. Really. I do. I mean it. He deserves it. And what's more I want him to discover that love means someone actually treating you like a PERSON not a tool or thing. I want someone to treat him decently and his only discovered belatedly DUH! That IS love! Not the hurt. Not the pain. Not the being beaten and insulted. Not being USED. Love is someone giving a damn what YOU feel and not just someone giving their all to another person.

Well, considering this is Whedon's World, I think the best we can hope for is Spike coming out alive, whole and unbowed after the great "good television" triangle. If JW and his minions have an ounce of good sense (and the jury is definitely still out on that one), they'll let Spike emerge from that totally contrived plot joke with at least a modicum of dignity.

I realized that earlier tonight when reading posts about the "epic" nature of Spuffy. I never really was shipping because of the "epic." What I shipped was "it's not pretty but it's REAL." I wanted a REAL relationship--flawed, passionate, give and take, equals. No pedestals. No stary eyed soulmate CRAP. I wanted Spuffy to see each other -- good and bad-- and love inspite of it. I wanted that sortof thing. Not epic. Earthy.

Well, for that, darling, you'll have to look to "Farscape," which had a ship that was epic, often not pretty but definitely real (but you know this already). ME is incapable of delivering anything even remotely like this. We've just have to face this squarely and go on from there.

Well, I didn't get it. Spike idolized someone who treated him 99% of the time like shit.

Yeah. It's a damn shame, because he deserved better. And remind me -- why are we supposed to think this added up to a great love story? What, are all these Spuffies (I HATE that word!) total masochists? Guess so.

Great post, Lisa.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

This is what gets me -- the die-hard B/S shippers who still think Buffy is a lovable person worthy of Spike's adoration. Excuse me? I wouldn't treat a dog the way she treated him. But oh yeah -- I forgot -- she's a "hero" and that absolves her of any "bad behavior" where Spike was concerned.

I can't, though. I just can't. It goes against all sorts of things inside me. I don't forgive what someone does because of who they are. I mean, when people treat you like shit I don't care WHO they are. They don't have the right. I don't care that Spike was once evil, when someone is helping you, you don't ABUSE them! You don't bite the hand that feeds, that's just commone courtesy. Buffy's behavior was bitchy. That's it plain and simple and who and what she is doesn't excuse it. It just doesn't.


And for the life of me, I don't know why he'd want her anymore! She's awful! She hadn't grown one iota since they were together (well, that's not entirely true; she got much worse), and he has, somewhat.

I don't either. To love her (either as a character or as a fan) means seeing her through a lens of possibilities and illusions. It means somehow finding a way to overlook what she does as if somehow how she behaves isn't who she is. It's not that people don't put up walls and defenses. Spike does that. It's that we never see anything BEHIND that wall... so I have to conclude there IS nothing behind that wall but her patented vacuous stare.

I realized that earlier tonight when reading posts about the "epic" nature of Spuffy. I never really was shipping because of the "epic." What I shipped was "it's not pretty but it's REAL." I wanted a REAL relationship--flawed, passionate, give and take, equals. No pedestals. No stary eyed soulmate CRAP. I wanted Spuffy to see each other -- good and bad-- and love inspite of it. I wanted that sortof thing. Not epic. Earthy.

Well, for that, darling, you'll have to look to "Farscape," which had a ship that was epic, often not pretty but definitely real (but you know this already). ME is incapable of delivering anything even remotely like this. We've just have to face this squarely and go on from there.



Well, yeah, I'm aware of that. Buffy is the kind of girl that Aeryn would think of with contempt. Really, thinking of Aeryn's reaction in "DNA Mad Scientist"... do YOU think Aeryn would react kindly to the final scene of Chosen? I don't. She was infuriated that you DON'T treat your allies that way. You just don't. I think Aeryn would think Buffy was a piss poor strategist (which she is), a bad soldier (to risk so many lives so unnecessarily and stupidly), a poor leader (allowing Potentials and Spike to die for her and then to ignore that they did), and a dishonorable person to honor the sacrifices of her fellow soldiers so little. (And we won't even get into her contempt for the "mall"). Aeryn is a woman-- scarred, difficult, and conflicted... but also brave both physically and ultimately emotionally. Aeryn is a woman. Buffy is a brittle little girl, there's the ultimate difference.

Well, I didn't get it. Spike idolized someone who treated him 99% of the time like shit.

Yeah. It's a damn shame, because he deserved better. And remind me -- why are we supposed to think this added up to a great love story? What, are all these Spuffies (I HATE that word!) total masochists? Guess so.

I understand wanting Spuffy to be something different. I really don't understand rationalizing what we got to the point that some honestly believe that it was good. I just can't ignore the inate selfishness of Buffy to reach that point and I'm perplexed by how some can overlook everything that's been said and done to still somehow see what we got as worth...well... much of anything. It's certainly not something that I want Spike pining over!

[shapinglight]

Don't know if this really sheds any light on the matter, but I can't help thinking that the reason why some people can't let go off Spuffy is because they invested so much in it that they just want it to mean something - and, as it was left, it just didn't. Oh sure, she looked upset enough when she said the false ILY, but she'd forgotten him five minutes later (that final scene, although I know why it's like it is, did Buffy and her friends no favours at all).

When you forget about someone like that, you make it look as if that person just wasn't important at all. It casts Spike in the role of Buffy's faithful dog, who died for her, and I think a lot of people just don't want to face up to that. Also, we Spike fans have had so many people telling us how bad Spike was, telling us that we were bad for liking him - this includes the writers - and I think some people just can't accept that. They want Spuffy to mean more than just the Bad Boyfriend story that ME told us it was. That's why they cling on, hoping to have their beliefs justified.

But they never will be. And when Buffy shows up, I expect to see no comment whatsover about her behaviour. I don't think any quarrel Joss might have had with SMG will have been bad enough to make him turn against the Buffy character. He sees her as a hero, and he expects the audience to see her the same way. When she appears in AtS, Spike is probably still going to be the same - pathetically grateful for the little scraps she throws him. I don't expect to see that change.

I think what pisses me off the most is that Joss seems unaware of the damage all that playing with Spike's feelings in the last few episodes did to the Buffy character. In fact, no one seems aware of it. They all think that Spike - after the AR and all - should be grateful that she let him die for her.They don't seem to see the emotional manipulation. It's funny to be on the same page as the B/A'ers about this - that Buffy let Spike die in Angel's place because she valued Angel and didn't value Spike - but I am, the difference being that they seem to think that was a good thing!

Yep, still bitter.

If this were RL, I'd agree absolutely that I want Buffy nowhere near Spike or Angel. I like them too much and I don't like her at all. But, Joss just doesn't see Buffy as the emotionally cold, permanently damaged person that we see her as. To him, she's cookie dough.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I think what pisses me off the most is that Joss seems unaware of the damage all that playing with Spike's feelings in the last few episodes did to the Buffy character. In fact, no one seems aware of it. They all think that Spike - after the AR and all - should be grateful that she let him die for her.

M.E.'s bouts of stupidity have ceased to shock me... at least in the sense that I'm no longer amazed that they have bizarroworld logic. Sometimes I'm still shocked by what that bizzaroworld logic looks like, but I'm not shocked when they seem to have points of view that must originate from a different planet because they do not resemble earth logic.

If this were RL, I'd agree absolutely that I want Buffy nowhere near Spike or Angel. I like them too much and I don't like her at all. But, Joss just doesn't see Buffy as the emotionally cold, permanently damaged person that we see her as. To him, she's cookie dough

quite frankly, in real life she would be someone in desperate, DESPERATE need of lots and LOTS of psychological counselling. Her "issues" are huge.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Wonderful post. You articulate this stuff so well.

I agree with everything except your thoughts on "Chosen." I can see how people who really want to see Spuffy in "Chosen" can see it. Part of the reason I think "Chosen" was one of the worst episodes ever is that it completely refuses to take any kind of stand on the S/B/A thing; it just throws in enough little teases that the viewer gets basically whatever s/he *wants* to get out of it, or expects to get out of it. There's no real stand either way (IMO). You can say it's the triumph of S/B or the triumph of B/A and there's ample evidence for and against both. It's totally a matter of interpretation; ME having their cake and eating it too.

But yeah ... everything else, ITA. I was just sorting through some old mail last night and I was reading some post-season six posts on BAPS in which people were commenting that their worst fear for S7 was that Buffy would never apologize for her abuse and Spike would just be her faithful little puppy, grateful that she deigns to allow him to die for her. It doesn't really surprise me that that's what happened ... we could predict it way back then based on ME's callous attitude toward Buffy's abusive behavior and their ridiculous judgementalism toward Spike and his fans.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

At this point I have little but contempt for Joss and Mutant Enemy. If it wasn't for the fact that the only way to see Spike was on their show, I'd be long gone by now. After what they've done to Spike, to Buffy, to Xander, to DarthWillow, and to Cordy I have no respect for them as storytellers.

[nutmeg3.livejournal.com]

<< I'm not sure how those who insist that Spike was lying when he said "no, you don't" reconcile the "lie" with the fact that JM says straight out that Spike believed he was saying the truth. How does one maintain that view? >>

I couldn't agree with you more. I was in the audience at Moonlight Rising when he said it, but when I posted on the list that I thought that pretty much put an end to the argument over whether Spike meant what he said or was just trying to make it easier on Buffy, I was rather haughtily told that I had no right to tell people how to read that scene, they could believe what they wanted to, blah blah blah. Hellllooooo! Not =me= telling anyone anything. =The actor= saying so. And if he didn't put a particular emotion in there, =it ain't there= and anyone who thinks it is, is living on the banks of Denial. Yeah, they can believe what they want, but they're just as stupid as the people who believe the earth is flat. Suck it up and deal with it: Spike never thought Buffy loved him. The End.

Sorry for the rant--especially 'cuz you and I are in total agreement here--but I couldn't restrain myself.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I remain perplexed and astounded. Clearly, it's not just duckies who can turn a blind eye to reality that they don't want to deal with.