Can We Let Go of Spuffy?
Sep. 17th, 2003 11:49 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shipperxI've just been wandering around the Spike-sites. So many people are in so many different places where Spuffy is concerned. Honestly, I think ME has dug themselves yet another hole they'll never dig themselves out of. Yet again they've fractured the audience.
There are people who just will. not. let. go. of Spuffy. I sympathize with those people. It's something so many of us have wanted for so long. I understand those unwilling to let go of it. . . although there seem to be varying degrees of this. There are those who really do see or at least convince themselves that they see real love and real pay off in "Chosen." I think this is the area that I understand the least. We've been bludgeoned over the head from everyone from SMG, to DB, to JM, etc that Buffy didn't love Spike. JM has been quite emphatic. I'm not sure how those who insist that Spike was lying when he said "no, you don't" reconcile the "lie" with the fact that JM says straight out that Spike believed he was saying the truth. How does one maintain that view? I tend to be the most confused by those Spuffies who feel that there's something in Chosen for Spuffy to be satisfied with. I'm confused because I walk away from Chosen so completely dissatisfied. Hell, I walk away from Chosen downright BITTER.
I understand a bit better those Spuffies who wanted Spuffy and can't quite kill the want. They know Spuffies got screwed by JW in in a big way. They know the chances of B/A being rammed down our throats is a pretty high, and yet they have that valiant little Spuffy heart that doesn't want to die and sometimes still hopes and against hope. I can understand that position. I really do. I'm not really in that place emotionally, but I can understand it.
I get how those Spuffies really don't want to see Spike move on. I understand how so much emotion was invested in Spuffy that they just can't really see Spike changing directions and going with someone else. This makes sense to me as well. I'm not in that place emotionally either, but I understand it.
In trying to understand that position I've noted that a lot of people viewed S/B in some very different ways. A lot of it seems to come back to S/B being "epic." Oddly, this is what I've seen a lot of B/Aers say as well "it was epic." I've seen sort of the same thing in some descriptions of how compelling the whole "Two superheroes" thing was. I understand the allure of that to an extent. I just find myself somewhat surprised that there is an overlap in concept here. B/A and S/Bers have been at each other's throats for so long that I sort of never quite grasped that there was some overlap in theory (if in no way in practice) between the two groups. There is the pull of the larger than life/grandscale/epic.
Except, I'm not in that place either.
Honestly, I'm in a deeply bitter place where BtVS is concerned. My overriding feeling is a level of contempt for the character of Buffy that I almost have to restrain myself from expressing on boards (and I'm pretty darn expressive on boards).
It's just that when I think back to all the reasons I got on the Spuffy ship and look at where the story ended... I end up wondering what there is to hold onto. When I started wanting Spuffy in Season 5 it was before the complete and total selfish bitchification of Buffy. The Buffy I see at the end of Chosen is someone so hard, so cold, so empty that I can't bring myself to like her. I just can't. I find myself thinking that Buffy is permanently broken. That her humanity has been shut off for too long and she's only a character who deals in appearances and fantasies but who lacks all emotional substance. I think she's relationship poison. . .and these days I really, REALLY don't want her with Spike. Ever.
I don't want her with Angel either. Yeah, I think she'd be just as destructive to Angel. But it's also that I also would puke seeing her with Angel. And... I still think the bitca is poison. I don't want BUFFY to have a happy ending. When I think of her, I think of the person she became and I 've sort of left her there mentally... and she isn't someone that I'd want to end up any way but alone. Save all male characters! Spare them Buffy!
Yeah, I understand the resistance to Spred. But honestly, I want Spike to move on. I want Angel to move on. I want it YESTERDAY and I'm willing to take any damn excuse for it that I can find. I want Buffy to show up and discover that she isn't NEEDED by either of these guys. They are capable of a hell of a lot better existence without her twisted, half assed mind games and dewy eyed crap.
I want Spike to fall in love with someone else. Really. I do. I mean it. He deserves it. And what's more I want him to discover that love means someone actually treating you like a PERSON not a tool or thing. I want someone to treat him decently and his only discovered belatedly DUH! That IS love! Not the hurt. Not the pain. Not the being beaten and insulted. Not being USED. Love is someone giving a damn what YOU feel and not just someone giving their all to another person. This is why I don't hold onto Spuffy.
I realized that earlier tonight when reading posts about the "epic" nature of Spuffy. I never really was shipping because of the "epic." What I shipped was "it's not pretty but it's REAL." I wanted a REAL relationship--flawed, passionate, give and take, equals. No pedestals. No stary eyed soulmate CRAP. I wanted Spuffy to see each other -- good and bad-- and love inspite of it. I wanted that sortof thing. Not epic. Earthy.
Well, I didn't get it. Spike idolized someone who treated him 99% of the time like shit.
So really, I don't care about "epic" or superheroes. What I wanted was flawed and "messy but real."
That can still happen...with someone else. So, while I sympathize with those who hold onto Spuffy. (And while I wholly support the continued FANFIC of Buffy where the "flawed but real" can still take shape), I'm just not one of those people who root for re-Spuffy, or the A/B/S triangle, or "Spike alone because he wouldn't abandon his love for Buffy." Buffy doesn't merit Spike staying alone forever. Spike needs to be freed of some of the horrible things she's said to him in the past. He needs someone to look at him and see someone worth loving... and treat him accordingly. Buffy may-- MAY-- have at long last seen that Spike was worth loving... but she never treated him that way and for that reason I don't find her memory one that needs to be honored. I don't think she's off in Europe mourning Spike. I don't think she was mourning Spike the week after he died. Hell, she was smiling over his grave as the episode ended. This isn't something Spike should be stuck honoring. My fondest dream would be Buffy show up and Spike realize that what they had wasn't worth clinging to. There are a lot of "might have beens" there... but there's also so much shit that I really want him free... and I want someone to LOVE HIM. It's what I need to feel any satisfaction with his story (yes, I know I'm doomed to disappointment. It's not going to happen. I'm well aware of that). But I just have no love of Spuffy left even though I understand those who do. It's just somewhere along the line I grew to hate the bitch. I would rather she show up and find herself as obselete as I think she is (and yes, I know I'm doomed to disappointment. It's not going to happen. I'm well aware of that).
It's just that I think my wittle Spuffy heart has finally well and truly died. I find I want something better for the character of Spike than being Buffy's bitch.
(And I'm not sure of where all this passion is coming from. I just don't "get" Buffy any more. I squint and just don't find her to be in any way likable any longer).
There are people who just will. not. let. go. of Spuffy. I sympathize with those people. It's something so many of us have wanted for so long. I understand those unwilling to let go of it. . . although there seem to be varying degrees of this. There are those who really do see or at least convince themselves that they see real love and real pay off in "Chosen." I think this is the area that I understand the least. We've been bludgeoned over the head from everyone from SMG, to DB, to JM, etc that Buffy didn't love Spike. JM has been quite emphatic. I'm not sure how those who insist that Spike was lying when he said "no, you don't" reconcile the "lie" with the fact that JM says straight out that Spike believed he was saying the truth. How does one maintain that view? I tend to be the most confused by those Spuffies who feel that there's something in Chosen for Spuffy to be satisfied with. I'm confused because I walk away from Chosen so completely dissatisfied. Hell, I walk away from Chosen downright BITTER.
I understand a bit better those Spuffies who wanted Spuffy and can't quite kill the want. They know Spuffies got screwed by JW in in a big way. They know the chances of B/A being rammed down our throats is a pretty high, and yet they have that valiant little Spuffy heart that doesn't want to die and sometimes still hopes and against hope. I can understand that position. I really do. I'm not really in that place emotionally, but I can understand it.
I get how those Spuffies really don't want to see Spike move on. I understand how so much emotion was invested in Spuffy that they just can't really see Spike changing directions and going with someone else. This makes sense to me as well. I'm not in that place emotionally either, but I understand it.
In trying to understand that position I've noted that a lot of people viewed S/B in some very different ways. A lot of it seems to come back to S/B being "epic." Oddly, this is what I've seen a lot of B/Aers say as well "it was epic." I've seen sort of the same thing in some descriptions of how compelling the whole "Two superheroes" thing was. I understand the allure of that to an extent. I just find myself somewhat surprised that there is an overlap in concept here. B/A and S/Bers have been at each other's throats for so long that I sort of never quite grasped that there was some overlap in theory (if in no way in practice) between the two groups. There is the pull of the larger than life/grandscale/epic.
Except, I'm not in that place either.
Honestly, I'm in a deeply bitter place where BtVS is concerned. My overriding feeling is a level of contempt for the character of Buffy that I almost have to restrain myself from expressing on boards (and I'm pretty darn expressive on boards).
It's just that when I think back to all the reasons I got on the Spuffy ship and look at where the story ended... I end up wondering what there is to hold onto. When I started wanting Spuffy in Season 5 it was before the complete and total selfish bitchification of Buffy. The Buffy I see at the end of Chosen is someone so hard, so cold, so empty that I can't bring myself to like her. I just can't. I find myself thinking that Buffy is permanently broken. That her humanity has been shut off for too long and she's only a character who deals in appearances and fantasies but who lacks all emotional substance. I think she's relationship poison. . .and these days I really, REALLY don't want her with Spike. Ever.
I don't want her with Angel either. Yeah, I think she'd be just as destructive to Angel. But it's also that I also would puke seeing her with Angel. And... I still think the bitca is poison. I don't want BUFFY to have a happy ending. When I think of her, I think of the person she became and I 've sort of left her there mentally... and she isn't someone that I'd want to end up any way but alone. Save all male characters! Spare them Buffy!
Yeah, I understand the resistance to Spred. But honestly, I want Spike to move on. I want Angel to move on. I want it YESTERDAY and I'm willing to take any damn excuse for it that I can find. I want Buffy to show up and discover that she isn't NEEDED by either of these guys. They are capable of a hell of a lot better existence without her twisted, half assed mind games and dewy eyed crap.
I want Spike to fall in love with someone else. Really. I do. I mean it. He deserves it. And what's more I want him to discover that love means someone actually treating you like a PERSON not a tool or thing. I want someone to treat him decently and his only discovered belatedly DUH! That IS love! Not the hurt. Not the pain. Not the being beaten and insulted. Not being USED. Love is someone giving a damn what YOU feel and not just someone giving their all to another person. This is why I don't hold onto Spuffy.
I realized that earlier tonight when reading posts about the "epic" nature of Spuffy. I never really was shipping because of the "epic." What I shipped was "it's not pretty but it's REAL." I wanted a REAL relationship--flawed, passionate, give and take, equals. No pedestals. No stary eyed soulmate CRAP. I wanted Spuffy to see each other -- good and bad-- and love inspite of it. I wanted that sortof thing. Not epic. Earthy.
Well, I didn't get it. Spike idolized someone who treated him 99% of the time like shit.
So really, I don't care about "epic" or superheroes. What I wanted was flawed and "messy but real."
That can still happen...with someone else. So, while I sympathize with those who hold onto Spuffy. (And while I wholly support the continued FANFIC of Buffy where the "flawed but real" can still take shape), I'm just not one of those people who root for re-Spuffy, or the A/B/S triangle, or "Spike alone because he wouldn't abandon his love for Buffy." Buffy doesn't merit Spike staying alone forever. Spike needs to be freed of some of the horrible things she's said to him in the past. He needs someone to look at him and see someone worth loving... and treat him accordingly. Buffy may-- MAY-- have at long last seen that Spike was worth loving... but she never treated him that way and for that reason I don't find her memory one that needs to be honored. I don't think she's off in Europe mourning Spike. I don't think she was mourning Spike the week after he died. Hell, she was smiling over his grave as the episode ended. This isn't something Spike should be stuck honoring. My fondest dream would be Buffy show up and Spike realize that what they had wasn't worth clinging to. There are a lot of "might have beens" there... but there's also so much shit that I really want him free... and I want someone to LOVE HIM. It's what I need to feel any satisfaction with his story (yes, I know I'm doomed to disappointment. It's not going to happen. I'm well aware of that). But I just have no love of Spuffy left even though I understand those who do. It's just somewhere along the line I grew to hate the bitch. I would rather she show up and find herself as obselete as I think she is (and yes, I know I'm doomed to disappointment. It's not going to happen. I'm well aware of that).
It's just that I think my wittle Spuffy heart has finally well and truly died. I find I want something better for the character of Spike than being Buffy's bitch.
(And I'm not sure of where all this passion is coming from. I just don't "get" Buffy any more. I squint and just don't find her to be in any way likable any longer).
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no subject
Date: 2003-09-18 01:03 am (UTC)This is what gets me -- the die-hard B/S shippers who still think Buffy is a lovable person worthy of Spike's adoration. Excuse me? I wouldn't treat a dog the way she treated him. But oh yeah -- I forgot -- she's a "hero" and that absolves her of any "bad behavior" where Spike was concerned.
I don't want her with Angel either. Yeah, I think she'd be just as destructive to Angel.
And for the life of me, I don't know why he'd want her anymore! She's awful! She hadn't grown one iota since they were together (well, that's not entirely true; she got much worse), and he has, somewhat.
And... I still think the bitca is poison. I don't want BUFFY to have a happy ending. When I think of her, I think of the person she became and I 've sort of left her there mentally... and she isn't someone that I'd want to end up any way but alone. Save all male characters! Spare them Buffy!
You know, I'm wondering if this isn't entirely out of the realm of possibility, considering the antipathy between Whedon and SMG there at the end. I can just imagine him bringing her back just to stick it to her and her character, without her being the wiser (she's not very bright, and I'm sure at that point she'll be blinded by the prospect of an actual job and money). Heh. If only.
Yeah, I understand the resistance to Spred.
I don't -- she's kind and smart and pretty, the operative word here being "kind." She'd be a tonic. She'd be good for him. How refreshing that would be!
But honestly, I want Spike to move on. I want Angel to move on. I want it YESTERDAY and I'm willing to take any damn excuse for it that I can find. I want Buffy to show up and discover that she isn't NEEDED by either of these guys. They are capable of a hell of a lot better existence without her twisted, half assed mind games and dewy eyed crap.
From your PC to Whedon's ears, kid.
I want Spike to fall in love with someone else. Really. I do. I mean it. He deserves it. And what's more I want him to discover that love means someone actually treating you like a PERSON not a tool or thing. I want someone to treat him decently and his only discovered belatedly DUH! That IS love! Not the hurt. Not the pain. Not the being beaten and insulted. Not being USED. Love is someone giving a damn what YOU feel and not just someone giving their all to another person.
Well, considering this is Whedon's World, I think the best we can hope for is Spike coming out alive, whole and unbowed after the great "good television" triangle. If JW and his minions have an ounce of good sense (and the jury is definitely still out on that one), they'll let Spike emerge from that totally contrived plot joke with at least a modicum of dignity.
I realized that earlier tonight when reading posts about the "epic" nature of Spuffy. I never really was shipping because of the "epic." What I shipped was "it's not pretty but it's REAL." I wanted a REAL relationship--flawed, passionate, give and take, equals. No pedestals. No stary eyed soulmate CRAP. I wanted Spuffy to see each other -- good and bad-- and love inspite of it. I wanted that sortof thing. Not epic. Earthy.
Well, for that, darling, you'll have to look to "Farscape," which had a ship that was epic, often not pretty but definitely real (but you know this already). ME is incapable of delivering anything even remotely like this. We've just have to face this squarely and go on from there.
Well, I didn't get it. Spike idolized someone who treated him 99% of the time like shit.
Yeah. It's a damn shame, because he deserved better. And remind me -- why are we supposed to think this added up to a great love story? What, are all these Spuffies (I HATE that word!) total masochists? Guess so.
Great post, Lisa.
no subject
Date: 2003-09-18 09:19 pm (UTC)I can't, though. I just can't. It goes against all sorts of things inside me. I don't forgive what someone does because of who they are. I mean, when people treat you like shit I don't care WHO they are. They don't have the right. I don't care that Spike was once evil, when someone is helping you, you don't ABUSE them! You don't bite the hand that feeds, that's just commone courtesy. Buffy's behavior was bitchy. That's it plain and simple and who and what she is doesn't excuse it. It just doesn't.
And for the life of me, I don't know why he'd want her anymore! She's awful! She hadn't grown one iota since they were together (well, that's not entirely true; she got much worse), and he has, somewhat.
I don't either. To love her (either as a character or as a fan) means seeing her through a lens of possibilities and illusions. It means somehow finding a way to overlook what she does as if somehow how she behaves isn't who she is. It's not that people don't put up walls and defenses. Spike does that. It's that we never see anything BEHIND that wall... so I have to conclude there IS nothing behind that wall but her patented vacuous stare.
I realized that earlier tonight when reading posts about the "epic" nature of Spuffy. I never really was shipping because of the "epic." What I shipped was "it's not pretty but it's REAL." I wanted a REAL relationship--flawed, passionate, give and take, equals. No pedestals. No stary eyed soulmate CRAP. I wanted Spuffy to see each other -- good and bad-- and love inspite of it. I wanted that sortof thing. Not epic. Earthy.
Well, for that, darling, you'll have to look to "Farscape," which had a ship that was epic, often not pretty but definitely real (but you know this already). ME is incapable of delivering anything even remotely like this. We've just have to face this squarely and go on from there.
Well, yeah, I'm aware of that. Buffy is the kind of girl that Aeryn would think of with contempt. Really, thinking of Aeryn's reaction in "DNA Mad Scientist"... do YOU think Aeryn would react kindly to the final scene of Chosen? I don't. She was infuriated that you DON'T treat your allies that way. You just don't. I think Aeryn would think Buffy was a piss poor strategist (which she is), a bad soldier (to risk so many lives so unnecessarily and stupidly), a poor leader (allowing Potentials and Spike to die for her and then to ignore that they did), and a dishonorable person to honor the sacrifices of her fellow soldiers so little. (And we won't even get into her contempt for the "mall"). Aeryn is a woman-- scarred, difficult, and conflicted... but also brave both physically and ultimately emotionally. Aeryn is a woman. Buffy is a brittle little girl, there's the ultimate difference.
Well, I didn't get it. Spike idolized someone who treated him 99% of the time like shit.
Yeah. It's a damn shame, because he deserved better. And remind me -- why are we supposed to think this added up to a great love story? What, are all these Spuffies (I HATE that word!) total masochists? Guess so.
I understand wanting Spuffy to be something different. I really don't understand rationalizing what we got to the point that some honestly believe that it was good. I just can't ignore the inate selfishness of Buffy to reach that point and I'm perplexed by how some can overlook everything that's been said and done to still somehow see what we got as worth...well... much of anything. It's certainly not something that I want Spike pining over!