Thing I Never Thought About...

[shipperx]

Friday I had to take my pup in for her yearly vet check-up and before giving her vaccinations the vet tech looked at me and asked "Does she bite?"

Understandable question given that it was going to be a shot, a fecal sample, and a blood-draw AND the vet tech is a perfect stranger to both me and my dog, but it actually took me several seconds to process what she was asking. My expression must have been a 'Wha...?"   It just never crosses my mind with Zoe.  I've never even heard her growl (except in a pre-'barking at shadows' sense).   At any rate she was a docile, if miserable,  little angel during her shot and blood draw. No effort to even struggle or growl much less any of aggression.

Then, Saturday while walking her, I passed a neighbor (a very TIMID neighbor) who has a small 12 year old terrier.  Timid neighbor looked at me helplessly, pointing to poop on her terrier's behind, and asked "What am I going to do?"

Again with my non-plussed  "Wha...?" expression.  "Er... wash it off?"

I mean, I know it's not NICE washing poop off a dog's behind, but it happens from time to time.  At any rate, my entire thought process was "Yeah, it's gross, but what're you gonna do?"

But timid neighbor just went "I CAN'T!  He {terrier} won't let me!"

Again, "Wha...?"

A male neighbor told timid elderly female neighbor, oh he'd do it for her.  (I didn't even think to offer because I was still processing the fact that she was serious about not knowing what to do.  She's had this dog for over ten years.).  So male neighbor went inside, wet a paper towel and came back out to do so, and... yeah, small terrier was a small terror, growling, snapping, and having to be held by him while his wife (not timid owner of said terrier) wiped the dog's butt.

Meanwhile I had picked up my pup, holding her in my arms while this process was going on.  The husband and wife who were dealing with elderly timid neighbor's terrier have a small son who looked up at me as I picked up Zoe and held her.  He said somewhat wistfully that he wished he could do that with their Malti-poo, but that his dog wouldn't  allow that.

All of which made me wonder... is Zoe really that comparatively docile?

I NEVER worry that Zoe is ever going to snap or bite.  She's never exhibited any sign of aggression  (apart from barking at a stray cat or dogs  -- through window glass. It's amazing how brave a pane of glass can make her. ;) -- and even then she'll immediately back off if they so much as look at her).    Zoe readily allows you to brush her teeth, for goodness sakes!  And though she's no fan of brushing or baths, she simply sighs and wiggles a bit.  That's all.

I know part of it is probably just conforming to breed standards.  Her breed is listed as "lively with a soft temperment but mildly stubborn" and that pretty much describes Zoe to a T.  But Zoe is just so mild natured that I simply never think about expecting aggression from her in just about any instance.

I don't know how timid neighbor deals with having a dog she fears will snap at her while doing something as simple as wiping poop off of him.   (Especially because said neighbor IS so timid).   Neighbor actually won't groom or bush her terrier either, but always takes him to a groomer instead.  Wonder whether it's a case of his becoming aggressive because his owner is timid, or whether timid owner simply adopted a more aggressive dog than she should probably have (because after all, you're probably going to have to clean poop off your dog's butt at some point in its lifetime.)

Comments

[sp23.livejournal.com]

I had a dachshund, a not, I should think, timid or all that docile breed. They were bred to dig out badgers, after all. He was always very well behaved at the vets, I could bathe him (and wipe poop off his butt if need be) without so much as a whimper. He *hated* getting his toenails trimmed, and I had to carry him into the beauty shop, but he would stand there with a look of pure suffering on his face, but never growled or bit. The only time I knew of him to get growly was when he got tangled up in the back yard and when a neighbor went to help him, he growled at the neighbor. But he allowed me to untangle him without a whimper.

So I'm thinking there's something about the owners that's allowing the bad behavior.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I wondered whether it might be something prior to this dog being adopted or having an owner who is at some level fearful, because I know that it isn't JUST Zoe. I cannot think of any dog that my family has ever owned that wasn't amenable to a great deal of handling. But, then, I remember we raised each of them from pups. Having a lot of handling while growing and a fear-free life has an impact I would think.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Our dachshund was the same. She hated getting her nails trimmed, or getting a bath, or getting her ears cleaned, and she'd make sure we noticed; she'd even refuse treats afterwards. But she would never get aggressive unless she felt threatened by a dog she didn't know. (Well, towards the end when she was blind and a little senile, but you forgive a lot in a 16-year-old dog.)

[sp23.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, Schultz at bath time was a picture of pure misery. And then after getting dried off, he would run around the house barking his fool head off. LOL

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Zoe insists on wallowing on as many pieces of furniture as she can manage.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Zoe has perfected the art of looking miserable during a bath. She gives deep heartfelt sighs.

The dog I had as a kid reached the point that she knew the word "Bath." All you had to do was say the word and she'd hide under the bed. It got to where we had to spell the word. :)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Our old dog seemed to have a vocabulary of a few hundred words at the end - pretty much any synonym for "food", "bath", "walk", etc. Luckily she only knew them in Swedish, so we ended up speaking English around her...

Of course, being a dachshund, she pretended to never learn even one word for "hush", "get down", "drop it", or "heel".

[txvoodoo.livejournal.com]

I do so love dachshunds. :D

[txvoodoo.livejournal.com]

My Carrie (dachshund) is SO good at the vet. She's a lizard-hunting, squirrel-killing huntress, but she's GOOD.

Ditto on the nail cutting, but she lets me.

My Catie does not. She's never growled at anyone, or bitten anyone, and she's a scaredy cat, but when you go near her nails to clip them she freaks. It's fear, totally. Whoever had her before must have traumatized her.

[sp23.livejournal.com]

I tried cutting Schultzie's nails myself, but after clipping him a couple times, I figured it was worth the walk and the $2 to have the groomer do it. :-)

[txvoodoo.livejournal.com]

Hah, yes! Only took me one time with Catie - one time after which I looked like a victim in a horror movie. Those tiny, sharp claws!

[kitmarlowescot2.livejournal.com]

I think the dog has not have the proper training and I know when we had adopted a adult chihuahua with an unknown history that she might snap or do an aggressive growl at someone.Those actions gets her placed in time out. So she has learned the
consequences of her actions ver quickly, though with Luna we are still training her and will probably have to do that for the rest of her life. I watch her like a hawk though , and reward her for good behavior. My mother states that Luna has a stubborn will and personality but she has is even more sturbborn and will not let her get away with aggressive behavior towards any other animals, such as our cats or other dogs, and espically humans. If she starts barking aggressively and won't stop, she gets placed in time out until she becomes calm. Luna also has a high fear factor and is high strung factor, and that might be the case in the child and small dog's case as well. But we are trying to over come Luna's behavior and let her know that her aggressive behavior in most situations are wrong and that she should not have her way in things and she should obey use. I have had to work with her on me doing her nails, and to not growl at us over food or bones. Because I not going to let her dicate to me that she is the boss over an item, if I need or want to remove something from her mouth, I will.

[kitmarlowescot2.livejournal.com]

PS And that terrier is not too old be worked with, and though you trust Zoe, if she does get hurt bad enough, and this is with any dog she could snap at you in pain or fear. So that is just something to consider. To that Terrier's owener, if he is that bad, he needs to muzzle him and start training him to let the dog know it's the human who dicates what actions are acceptable not the dog.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Any animal actively in pain has to be approached carefully. I was just surprised at how MANY things this neighbor feels she cannot do for her dog, and they're pretty standard things. He's a personable dog on a dog to dog level (my Zoe absolutely adores this dog and the two of them get along quite well), but his owner doesn't feel that she can even pick him up. It just surprised me.

Zoe is in fact quite a soft temperment. I don't think she would do well with any sort of rough handling or even being spoken too roughly. I think she could easily grow quite fearful under poor circumstances.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Zoe was pretty funny barking at my Mom's cat in pure jealousy last night when I was visiting.

Zoe and Gracie (mom's cat) clearly have jealousy issues with one another. Under most circumstances they get along fine. And under normal circumstances, Gracie could not possibly care any less about me, but after I had had Zoe cuddling in my lap and had set her down, suddenly I had a lap full of black cat. Zoe did not approve and sat barking in front of me until that cat moved.

Even then, though, there's nothing actually aggressive. Just voicing her disapproval.

They argue over my Dad's lap as well and he has been known to have both on top of him at the same time as a result. :)

[kitmarlowescot2.livejournal.com]

Lol, I forgot jealousy. When my grandfather was alive he would have our dog Morgan and two cats in a lap. Of those only Lilith is still alive and she is 13 year old, know Luna's reaction to jealousy are a bit more forceful, she bite Lilith when I went to pick her up, and that is a big no no. So Luna got put in time out, and if Lilith wants in my lap, I pick her up first, then allow Luna up, with the idea she cannot chase or bite Lilith. So far they are getting along, and Luna and Jesse my other cat are playmates.

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

When I had my two Keeshonden I never gave them biting myself or anyone else a thought and they never did. That being said, we took obedience classes and believe me, there are a lot of owners with dogs they can't control and clearly needed these classes. Of course, any dog will bite if they're in severe pain but just doing normal things like brushing, petting, cleaning their teeth should never ever set off your own dog.

But people don't take obedience classes for a variety of reasons : too much money, too busy, too lazy, etc. And that's truly a shame because most people keep their dogs indoors these days and living with something you're afraid of is something I just can't understand.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I cannot claim that Zoe is obedient. Wish that I could. She's very good at many things, but coming when called is not one of them (probably a byproduct of always being leashed when outside, other than in my fenced back yard).

[paratti.livejournal.com]

It's not just breed standard. You've obviously brought her up properly too.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I tend to think of her a bit like a toddler. She needs consistency, boundaries, and reassurance/encouragement. (She also sometimes needs help in self-calming when over excited.) There's never any reason to make her fearful.

[paratti.livejournal.com]

Firm but loving. It's what we used with the Dobermans I grew up with. They were all marvellous dogs, even though the last three were all rescue dogs, and each had a person who was boss. Mitzi was my dog and I took her to training classes even though she weighed as much as I did as a teenager. It never occurred to me to be scared of her. Annoyed occasionally when she opened my bedroom door handle so she could sleep on my feet - all 8 stone of her - but never scared.

[txvoodoo.livejournal.com]

You're a good dog mommy. Seriously.

[usedtobeljs]

When Master Danger came to me from the breed rescue program, he was snarling and snapping at anything including me. I have gotten him to a much better place with me, but he still HATES grooming and vet visits, and he'll never be amenable to much cuddling the way my other dogs (including another Corgi) have been.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

My sister's (otherwise totally docile) dog will not let a groomer deal with her nails. My sis is convinced it's because someone hurt her when grooming her nails once (since my Sis has raised Meg from a tiny pup).

Dog's remember pain and like any creature don't want to do stuff that's painful.

I try to practice what I read in a book about handling Zoe's feet rather often so that she doesn't assume that feet-touching will be painful (though she's still hesistant about people handling her feet.)

[nutmeg3.livejournal.com]

I'm sure there are occasional "bad seed" dogs, but 99% of the time I blame it on inept owners, lack of socialization...all kinds of prevantable things. Sheesh.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Strangely this dog is a VERY dog-friendly dog. Zoe absolutely adores this dog -- above and beyond any other dog in the universe. It's noticeable. Zoe has other dogs that she likes, but this dog is very, very clearly her favorite. Her tail wag goes into overdrive when she sees him and on each and every walk she drags me to his front yard to check whether or not he's out. Never quite understood why Barkley is her fave, as I sort of think the dog directly across the street (Barney) is actually nicer (That dog is a perfect little angel who minds better than Zoe), but for Zoe, Barkley is preferred above all others.

At any rate, I would guess at some point in the distant pre-adoption past he's had a more negative experience with people than with dogs.

Another couple down the street recently adopted a rescue who had been abused -- almost certainly by a man -- because when talking they spoke about the way the dog readily accepted the wife and daughter but was quite cautious of the husband for several weeks.

And I think Zoe's love of my Dad, on the other hand, has made her predisposed to liking older men. There are several older men in my neighborhood that Zoe greets with big tail wags.

Dogs do indeed have memories. They do distinguish between good experiences and negative ones.

[rahirah]

I think it's both nature and nurture. Bo is amazingly laid back - I can take food out of his mouth (and so can the cats) and he'll never snap or growl. Some of our previous dogs have been food guarders, though, and we would never feed them where the cats might get between them and their bowl, even though they got along with the cats in general. Sam had to be muzzled at the vet, because he would snap, but I think Sam was abused before we got him, so who knows...

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I think it's both nature and nurture.

Yeah, I think so. Dogs clearly have memories of bad experiences and enough knowledge to not want to repeat them. And any distressed animal in fear will react. (And of course there can be instances of actual aggression). But for the most part I think that a dog who is handled kindly and consistently will develop some trust.

And I think both cats and dogs remember the smell of the vet office. I've been with Zoe every second of her times visiting the vet and my vet is a very nice young woman who is always gentle. Zoe has never been out of my sight while there, and still she trembles almost the whole time at the vet's. I wonder if the place smells like fear [/drusilla]

[rahirah]

Yeah, Bo is always good at the vet, and they love him, but ever since we boarded him there one time, he gets this "You're not going to LEAVE me here again, are you?" look when we go in.