GOT Finale
Jun. 16th, 2014 09:54 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shipperxValar Morghulis.
A couple of book things left out of the finale, and Bran way, way deep into the next books (isn't he? I'm afraid that I lose track of where one book ends and another begins. But that seemed to be somewhat A Dance with Dragons(?) ).
Death 1 -
Jojen didn't die in the book, did he? I remember his being near death, but I didn't remember his actually dying. Though I wasn't shocked by their making that choice. It felt like Jojen was GOING to die, so I don't anticipate that he had all that much left to do, so no criticism of that death. (I liked "Meera's'" background acting after it. She continued to look devastated by her brother's death -- which she should be -- even during the Three-Eyed Raven scene.)
"Death" 2+ ... kinda
I liked the addition of the Ygritte funeral. As well as the Pyp and Grenn ones.Still no mention of Mance's wife and baby. Wonder whether that's going to be left out? Tormund is still around (as he should be). And there's Melisendre, Shireen, and Stannis, so everything is set for next year at The Wall.
Death 3
The shepherd they cast did a good job, because by the time he exposed his daughter's bones to Dany I felt like crying. Guess what happens when you train your pets to attack people? They learn that it's okay to attack people. And when the pet in question is a fire breathing dragon, that can lead to terrible things. And still, Dragons crying for "Mom" was painful too.
Undeath 1 and "Death" 4
Well I see they are clarifying what happened to The Mountain Clegane. It was rather murky and thus a tad speculative in the book. So, yep, The Mountain is the Westerosi 'Frankenstein"... how could this not end well (because we all know that it won't).
And then Sandor Clegane. *sniff*
Book Change: It wasn't Brienne who 'done him in' in the book. She searched for him later. This is a change. I wonder whether it will be significant or not? (In the book, I was one who thought that he was not really, most sincerely dead. And I'll remain open to that argument for some time yet.) The Brienne/Sandor fight was epic, mainly because I didn't want either to die (though I knew what happened to Sandor in the book, so... yeah. I was wondering how they were going to separate Arya from Brienne here because it absolutely had to boil down to the same thing for Arya/The Hound where she refused to kill him. And I loved that it retained all of its ambiguity. Oh! And I also loved The Hound claiming he was looking out for Arya. I do think The Hound came to care (in his way) for the fierce little future assassin. May you find peace, Sandor(and hopefully the way a lot of people speculated you did in the book.)
And Arya is off to Braavos. I'm still sort of hoping Jaquen H'dar resurfaces rather than just new characters. I always wanted Jaquen back. Surprised Arya got the final scene though. But more on that later...
Deaths 5 and 6
I believe at one point I said aloud, "Yes, Tywin, Tyrion would totally kill you on the toilet." And I never felt a moment of pity for the controlling asshole. Tywin Lannister needed to die by the hand of one of his own children. Hoisted on his own petard of 'family legacy'. And isn't it weird to confess you wanted Tyrion dead his whole life and then promising you wouldn't have let him be executed? Methinks by that point, Tywin was talking out of his ass... which is rather ironic somethings considered.
Shae's death was always the more difficult one to take. Yes, she testified against Tyrion. And yes, she was in Tywin's bed. But... those are not executable offenses. The scene was subtlely changed from the books. Her grabbing the knife and fighting added some nuance. But it still boils down to a tragedy. The book!Shae never loved Tyrion, but I do believe that Show!Shae once did. And I believe that Tyrion loved her. And all of that is fatally besmirched. He murdered her. Tyrion, truly, is sucks to be you.
Now, about that other change. No fall-out between Jaime/Tyrion???!Jaime doesn't confess the truth that Tysha wasn't a prostitute, that she had loved Tyrion? That Jaime lied at Tywin's command? When Jaime didn't bring it up, I wondered whether Tywin would (because then it could be tied to Shae in Tywin's bed and Shae's murder as well. I could've understood that because it would've seemed very out of the blue to have Jaime/Tyrion speaking about Tysha.) Still, while this change doesn't do anything to the PLOT... it does seem strange to lose that moment where Tyrion lost Jaime too. That was powerful that Tyrion lost everyone. Jaime was the very last person he believed in and Jaime had 'rescued' him... and then Tyrion discovered that Jaime had betrayed him too. So now, Tyrion departs with no acrimony and only thankfullness to Jaime. Huh.
Link to an article of GRRM discussion how all this went down in the book (which makes it seem as though leaving it out left out some important stuff).
Guess Tyrion was never supposed to exact revenge on Jaime (honestly, despite Tyrion's fuming... I never expected Tyrion to avenge himself against Jaime. Cersei? Yeah, that holds a distinct possibility. But I never thought that when push came to shove Tyrion and Jaime would do one another true harm.
Still, maybe this spares us the endless repetition of "Where do whores go?" from drunk Tyrion.
And, I see, in the show Varys got on the ship with Tyrion. Minor change, but who wants Varys to be MIA as long as he is MIA in the book? I can see how Varys could work in some of the early stages of A Dance with Dragons so, again, this makes an understandable change.
And finally, the ending. Odd choice to end it where they did. Um... where the hell was the epilogue?!Undeath 2 - Where's Stoneheart?!! Double spoiler-tagged so you can click on the others and still not be spoiled for the last one.
A couple of book things left out of the finale, and Bran way, way deep into the next books (isn't he? I'm afraid that I lose track of where one book ends and another begins. But that seemed to be somewhat A Dance with Dragons(?) ).
Death 1 -
Jojen didn't die in the book, did he? I remember his being near death, but I didn't remember his actually dying. Though I wasn't shocked by their making that choice. It felt like Jojen was GOING to die, so I don't anticipate that he had all that much left to do, so no criticism of that death. (I liked "Meera's'" background acting after it. She continued to look devastated by her brother's death -- which she should be -- even during the Three-Eyed Raven scene.)
"Death" 2+ ... kinda
I liked the addition of the Ygritte funeral. As well as the Pyp and Grenn ones.
Death 3
The shepherd they cast did a good job, because by the time he exposed his daughter's bones to Dany I felt like crying. Guess what happens when you train your pets to attack people? They learn that it's okay to attack people. And when the pet in question is a fire breathing dragon, that can lead to terrible things. And still, Dragons crying for "Mom" was painful too.
Undeath 1 and "Death" 4
Well I see they are clarifying what happened to The Mountain Clegane. It was rather murky and thus a tad speculative in the book. So, yep, The Mountain is the Westerosi 'Frankenstein"... how could this not end well (because we all know that it won't).
And then Sandor Clegane. *sniff*
Book Change: It wasn't Brienne who 'done him in' in the book. She searched for him later. This is a change. I wonder whether it will be significant or not? (In the book, I was one who thought that he was not really, most sincerely dead. And I'll remain open to that argument for some time yet.) The Brienne/Sandor fight was epic, mainly because I didn't want either to die (though I knew what happened to Sandor in the book, so... yeah. I was wondering how they were going to separate Arya from Brienne here because it absolutely had to boil down to the same thing for Arya/The Hound where she refused to kill him. And I loved that it retained all of its ambiguity. Oh! And I also loved The Hound claiming he was looking out for Arya. I do think The Hound came to care (in his way) for the fierce little future assassin. May you find peace, Sandor
And Arya is off to Braavos. I'm still sort of hoping Jaquen H'dar resurfaces rather than just new characters. I always wanted Jaquen back. Surprised Arya got the final scene though. But more on that later...
Deaths 5 and 6
I believe at one point I said aloud, "Yes, Tywin, Tyrion would totally kill you on the toilet." And I never felt a moment of pity for the controlling asshole. Tywin Lannister needed to die by the hand of one of his own children. Hoisted on his own petard of 'family legacy'. And isn't it weird to confess you wanted Tyrion dead his whole life and then promising you wouldn't have let him be executed? Methinks by that point, Tywin was talking out of his ass... which is rather ironic somethings considered.
Shae's death was always the more difficult one to take. Yes, she testified against Tyrion. And yes, she was in Tywin's bed. But... those are not executable offenses. The scene was subtlely changed from the books. Her grabbing the knife and fighting added some nuance. But it still boils down to a tragedy. The book!Shae never loved Tyrion, but I do believe that Show!Shae once did. And I believe that Tyrion loved her. And all of that is fatally besmirched. He murdered her. Tyrion, truly, is sucks to be you.
Now, about that other change. No fall-out between Jaime/Tyrion???!
Link to an article of GRRM discussion how all this went down in the book (which makes it seem as though leaving it out left out some important stuff).
Guess Tyrion was never supposed to exact revenge on Jaime (honestly, despite Tyrion's fuming... I never expected Tyrion to avenge himself against Jaime. Cersei? Yeah, that holds a distinct possibility. But I never thought that when push came to shove Tyrion and Jaime would do one another true harm.
Still, maybe this spares us the endless repetition of "Where do whores go?" from drunk Tyrion.
And, I see, in the show Varys got on the ship with Tyrion. Minor change, but who wants Varys to be MIA as long as he is MIA in the book? I can see how Varys could work in some of the early stages of A Dance with Dragons so, again, this makes an understandable change.
And finally, the ending. Odd choice to end it where they did. Um... where the hell was the epilogue?!
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no subject
Date: 2014-06-16 03:25 pm (UTC)And I was really wondering about the Tysha story. First off it always felt a little bit like there was a possibility that Tysha might at somepoint resurface somewhere.
But I also felt that it was a truly important distinction between Tysha and Shae. Tysha never actually deceived him, Shae did. But then show Shae did not do it to extend that book Shae did. It's all very off.
I was glad that Shae was at least awake and fighting though, even if it was still a horrible turning point for Tyrion.
Still they left the relationship between Tyrion and Jaime intact. I also felt that non of them would ever truly avenge himself on the other, but still. It is a massive difference. Jaime by the end of the book has come clean and he helps Tyrion despite Tyrion telling him that he poisoned Joffrey.
I liked the fight between Brienne and the Hound. Fewer henchmen, more action for the main cast is always a good thing.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-16 03:55 pm (UTC)And the Tysha thing...
On the one hand it really messes with the Tyrion/Jaime dynamic. Tyrion left King's Landing hating EVERYONE, having been disillusioned by EVERYONE. Here: Well, Tyrion should love Jaime more than ever. He was the one who remained true to him no matter what. That seems like a relationship change even though I suspect it has little if no impact on plot (although Cersei discovering Jaime freed Tyrion could do-in their relationship, which is a reversal of the dynamic on the show. Either tha, and if Jaime does go to Dorne, maybe the fall-out is over Myrcella?)
On the other hand, from a show-only perspective, bringing up Tysha would be really out in left field. Casual show fans would most likely not know what they were talking about.
And the change in Shae has always made the prospect of this episode more difficult to figure how it's going to work. Book!Shae never loved Tyrion. Show!Shae (I believe) did. It's just a very basic difference that makes things more difficult to figure out emotionally.
Brienne/Hound was a good adaptation. Better than random people doing in the Hound. And a great scene in that -- who do you root to "win"? As a viewer you're torn during the scene, because you really don't want either to die.
However, it is a change to have Brienne meet the Hound. On the other hand, if speculation about the Hound IS true, it changes that (potential) future scene because the debateability about it was that Brienne wouldn't have recognized the Hound anyway. Yet, on TV there's no way to pull off that ambiguity so I guess if that speculation IS true, it wouldn't matter whether or not Brienne recognized him because the audience would. So, it's a change (MAYBE) but one that I don't think changes things the way that the Jaime/Tyrion dynamic is changed.
Stoneheart remains an open question. But I still contend inclusion of Stoneheart is not optional. It's where Brienne and Jaimes plot WILL eventually go. It just may take a while.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-16 07:50 pm (UTC)Because even if Jaime believes that Tyrion poisoned Joff, he knew that Joff was another Mad King Aerys in the making. And Tyrion knows that the mastermind behind the Tysha horror was Tywin not Jaime.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-16 08:12 pm (UTC)For that matter, as much as Tyrion would like it and as much as Cersei fears it, I don't think Tyrion will ever get revenge on Cersei either.
I've always felt that it's Jaime who will be the valonquar... mainly because who is the ONLY person (well, other than Tommen, maybe) who would regret Cersei's death? Since Jaime is the only person who would not wish to be the valonquar, I suspect he must be it.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-16 03:52 pm (UTC)Apart from that, though, I thought Tywin's death worked perfectly. As did The Hound's (though that was a really cringe-inducing fight, and this time in a good way).
And I'm actually really liking Jon Snow's plot for once. His scenes with Tom Baker's character on Blackadder and Mance Rayder were excellent. And I knew Stannis had to show up, but I honestly hadn't expected him to turn up there - but it makes a lot of sense. As always, there's a hint of real-life history in there; few successful revolutions have started with an attack on the capital, you start by building momentum and making allies far away. (Then again, *cough*Robb Stark*cough*)
Bran's plot: Don't know what it means, don't care. Either involve him with someone else's plot, or make his plot interesting in and of itself. If it means they'll delve deeper into the mythology and history of this world next season, fine, but so far, meh.
Arya actually smiling was nice to see, too.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-16 04:19 pm (UTC)But, again, her death was never justifiable.
I always felt that Tyrion himself knew that it was not justifiable (and that was part of the torture of "Where do whores go?" It wasn't just about Tysha.
But... yeah, they really screwed around with the dynamic by making Shae a more fully rounded person and that Tyrion wasn't just willfully deluding himself that there had ever been anything more to their relationship than business. In fact, Shae is so much more of a person, even after the trial I find it difficult to buy that she landed in Tywin's bed out of all people's (not that anyone would be allowed to turn Tywin down... just that there seems to be more of a story). They also didn't highlight Tywin's hypocrisy. How Tywin was portrayed as such a monogamous guy who had 'loved' Tyrion's mother so, so, so much and never betrayed her such that it 'justified' his hatred of Tyrion... only to find that Tywin was bedding 'whores' himself. I suppose the hypcrisy is still there (since he did threaten to hang Tyrion's mistress) but it doesn't come off quite the same. The lack of Tysha also lessens thing here because to me it really triggered Tyrion's rage because of Tywin having ordered the Tysha gang-rape. Part of Tyrion's rage was Tysha's gangrape and without the Jaime/Tyrion "Tysha wasn't a whore and really did love you" bit followed by the confrontation with unrepentant and unshamed Tywin... Well, there was a reason I never felt any pity over Tywin's death. Shae's always seemed the tragic one, because for all her sins, none of them were capital offenses (though she did testify against him in a case where he would be executed, so...)
Still, the addition of the scene a couple of years ago of Shae asking Tyrion to run away with her amps the tragedy here. The Show!Couple once loved each other. How terribly things got twisted.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-16 05:59 pm (UTC)I know they tried to soften it by having her go for him with a knife, but all the same...
I always thought she loved him. I loved the way she was so protective of Sansa. I thought maybe she testified against him because she was threatened if she didn't, and even if not, I can't understand why there couldn't have been at least a conversation between them. :(
no subject
Date: 2014-06-16 07:14 pm (UTC)Book!Shae didn't give a rats ass about anyone but Shae. She was a bitch about Lollys (whose maid she was, not Sansa's), never having any pity for Lollys. She was never anything but mean about Sansa being married to Tyrion (and had no feelings for Sansa at all.) And she was purely mercenary with Tyrion. Book!Shae still didn't deserve to DIE, but she was a really shallow, mercenary character.
Show!Shae was a person with feelings and loyalties... who also didn't deserve to die. Still, Show!Shae was an infinitely more likable character than Book!Shae.
Tywin was horrid in the books. After what he did to an innocent young girl like Tysha for no other reason than he COULD (not to mention what he did to Oberyn's sister by sending The Mountain to rape and murder her and her children), he deserved to die horribly.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-16 08:12 pm (UTC)Yes, I have to look at it that way, I guess. And even though Tyrion's first wife isn't even a character in the show, Tywin has done plenty of other horrible things -not least making use of the horrible Boltons and the Mountain and not caring what atrocities they commit while in his service.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-16 08:25 pm (UTC)Tywin on the other hand was a vicious, ruthless tyrant (who had a really screwed up thing about women what with ordering the brutal rapes of two women for no good reason.
(The death of Oberyn's sister could at least be argued as politically motivated. Raping her to death though...?
And, yeah, because he was a few hundred miles removed it's easy to forget that he was as much a perpetrator of the Red Wedding as Frey and Bolton. )
no subject
Date: 2014-06-16 08:36 pm (UTC)Yep. I hadn't forgotten that. I still miss Catelyn.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-17 05:02 am (UTC)Charles Dance did particularly good delivery on the line "But you wouldn't die. I admired that." But yeah, he's saying a bunch of contradictory things here, lol.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-17 01:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-06-17 03:32 pm (UTC)I'd rather say it sucks to be Shae...
I loved how they changed Tyrion/Jaimie/Shae ending from the books. This Tyrion, the show Tyrion, I can still keep. Book Tyrion I could no longer care about, and was very sad about that.
What I hated about bringing up Tysha in the books is that it obscured what Tyrion did to Shae. That it appeared that his grief and rage with Jaimie and Tywin was all about Tysha, while Shae lay there murdered by his own hands, having suffered same fate as Tysha, betrayed and used by Tyrion same way as Tysha - as Tyrion abandoned Tysha after the ordeal Tywin put her through, because she didn't live up to his expectations, if we look at at it point blank.
In the show Shae's killing wasn't deliberate, it was in a fit of rage during the struggle. Tyrion was horrified by it when he came to his senses, and his talk to Tywin was about Shae, not about Tysha. She served same purpose to the plot - Tywin had her to prove to Tyrion (and to himself) that no one could love Tyrion for real, while we knew, and Tyrion knew, that she did. His rage pver calling *her* whore, the real woman right there, not idealized Tysha, moved me much more.
As for fallout with Jaimie - it never played any role in the books, and it was completely out of left field. I'm not complaigning about them being friends, as I'm sure if they would ever meet in the books they would resolve it quickly through some ordeal or other and will be friends again.
Otherwise - so happy that they cut out horrible stuff with Bloody Mummers and Brienne, and streamlined it for her to meet Arya and Hound.
My only regret was that she didnt show Arya that bread that Hot Pie made her... They might have soften Arya up...
Not happy about seeing Zombie!Clegane, as you may guess. :) Well, at least they cut one zombie out - was never fond of Stoneheart.
Zombie!Clegane makes me mad for the same reason as Renly's Shadow baby: why does Martin have to cheat and create some cheesy monsters out of the left field to destroy folks from my camp? :D My camp being Renly-Tyrells, yep, still rooting for them. :)