sueworld2003 linked to this conversation yesterday. Now, I've made my feelings clear about possible plot twists in the comics (and I just saw that I didn't comment on most of the responses in my linked post. I'm sorry! I don't know what was going on in my life at that point, but I didn't mean to ignore anyone. My bad). Anyway, what intrigued me in the current conversation wasn't anything in regards to the comics. It was the question posed in the debate about whether viewing BtVS in a marathon Buffyfest leads to a different reaction than having watched the episodes as they aired. ( Maybe I should amend that to "having watched and been involved in fandom" as it aired. ) In short, my answer is, yeah, I think it does.

Personally, I enjoy marathon watching of seasons and/or shows. I watched all of Seasons 1 & 2 of "Deadwood" that way. All of Season 1 "Rome" that way. All of Seasons 1 & 2 of "The Tudors" that way. And all of "Band of Brothers" that way. I even watched roughly half of "Farscape" in that manner. It's fun to watch a show all in one fell swoop. Cliffhangers are a hell of a lot easier when you don't have to wait six months to find out what happens next. There's nothing wrong with watching a show back to back to back. In fact there's a great deal to recommend it. However, I do think that watching a show in that manner is by its nature different than watching a series in the long, drawn-out method complete with sweeps and summer and winter hiatuses. There's a different pace, and that pace changes the way that we experience what we view.

I have always suspected that Season 6 BtVS would play better in marathon viewing than in the way it actually aired (though I've never had the masochistic need to watch it in a marathon). I suspect in marathon viewing that the season of depression doesn't feel as long. With watching in marathon you have, what? A few days of depression to watch? In 'real time' viewing of Season 6, it was eight or nine months of unrelenting depression. The faux epiphanies probably aren't as soul-killing when relief is a disk away. Watching in real time, it was easy to believe that this time the epiphany might stick... only it didn't. And after the third or fourth non-stick epiphany over the course of several months, it's somewhat more understandable to have the urge to see someone to yell at Buffy to get the hell over it, already! It had gone on more than long enough.

I remember quite well the minor implosion of fandom (and the tanking of the ratings) with "Hells Bells". It was like, if they could make Xander and Anya's comedic pairing into a thing of depression, then what in the hell was left? Exacerbating the situation was the fact that even as "Hells Bells" aired, spoilers for "Seeing Red" were out. That one-two punch proved too much for a lot of people. Ratings never really recovered. Kitten Jihad followed. And Spike fans were faced with... ::shudder:: At the "Hells Bells" juncture, not only was there no light left in the show, but also spoilers indicated that things were only going to get worse for the forseeable future, which at that time was three or four months! No wonder the fandom went batshit crazy. (ETA: And on further thought, another factor in viewing may be the real world in addition to show pacing. I'm sure that the dark pall of Season 6 probably felt more dark and less bearable due to the the fact that it was airing during the aftermath of 9/11 {I particularly remember the qualms I felt watching the Glory tower collapse a mere few weeks after the Twin Towers collapse.} In light of the general real-world atmosphere at that period, the fact that the fandom went insane doesn't even seem surprising.)

Time definitely impacts the way that we experience something.

But it isn't about time, or, rather it isn't just about time. I think it's partially about expectations. Time plays into expectations. When you're given an episode that is followed by a two month break, you (and fandom at large) then obsess on that the episode. Elements in those episodes (eye of botox, there is a 'vessel', it eats you from the bottom, etc) tend to take on an importance in that negative space that they probably would not have had the next episode been a DVD menu choice away.

I think when watching a series via DVD, it's easier to simply follow the story that is told. When watching, and involved in a fandom, during 'real time' seasons we're more aware of -- and more likely to mentally explore -- the roads not taken. And because it's real time, because we don't know whether that's the road that the show will take, we ponder all roads somewhat equally and pick the one that most suits us. Then, if the show chooses a different road, disappointment is bound to happen. Real-time viewers don't have foreknowledge, and sometimes canon writer paths only look inevitable due to hindsight, hindsight based on the cumulative choices canon made, as opposed to the ones they could have made. Episodes, when viewed in quick succession, can give an impression of inevitability that slower-paced extended viewing didn't give.

One reason I've been thinking about this isn't the BtVS conversation. While over on the OLTL TWOP board recently, I've noticed some clear divides in fans. There are definite differences based on what stories/characters/directions people are invested in. People who are quite invested in one character and in one specific trajectory for that character(or any character. There's more than one character/fan group who have this issue) are understandably bothered if the show goes a different route. And given the years long duration of characters and stories, there are fans with one hell of a lot of investment in a certain trajectory and thus are pretty intractable as far as what's "acceptable" to them.

Ages ago rahirah discussed how fandom views Spike. How even Spike fans view Spike in a wide range of ways. And the degree to which "our Spike" overlaps the view of someone else's Spike or someone's fanfic Spike probably has a great deal to do with our experience of the fic and what we perceive to be "in" or "out" of character. (I know I'm mangling what rahirah wrote. I hope I managed to express the gist of it, though). There is subjective latitude in the viewing of a character. In the Spike fandom I've definitely learned that there's a wide range of views of Spike. And, even when people agree on aspects of his personality, what specific trait comes first for one person as opposed to another still differs. That degree of separation also exists between fandom and canon writers. What may be most important to me, or to my corner of fandom may have only cursory common ground with the way that the canon writers view it. In short, what's most crucial to me, may not be very important (or important at all) to the writer.

Back to the OLTL TWOP stuff, there are people quite unhappy about the direction of one character because they were quite invested in him being mostly a human being (rather than a pathological narcissist and probable sociopath). I understand (God, being a Spike fan boy do I understand) being invested in a 'redemptive' type plot. However, I think anyone with any objectivity regarding the OLTL character has to admit that while it may not have been the direction that they wanted the character to go, it's really damn difficult to come up with an argument that the character couldn't go down this path just because it's an unpopular one.

There is a difference in preference and "out of character" or "bad storytelling". It's perfectly possible to take the basic characterization and choose left instead of right. . . I just may not want the story to go "right". And, if it does, I may be haunted by the road not taken, perhaps convinced that I prefer the road not taken. Perhaps I even feel that the road not taken would have been the better road. And, because I watched in real time, I invested a lot of thought in what that road might be like, in where it might lead, and then for the show to chose a different road, going to an entirely different destination, I may end up wondering why the canon writer chose that road.

I don't think marathon viewing (as opposed to real-time viewing) leads to as many pauses at the junctures of diverging paths. You speed right past the four way stop, going with the road the writer chose, barely aware of the alternatives that flew by your window. Real-time viewing frequently left fandom at a stop light for-freaking-ever, allowing everyone on the damn bus to have their say as to merits of one road versus another, allowing people to become personally attached to "choose left" or "choose right," and leaving them screaming about road signs that led them to their particular road choice. Meanwhile, in the marathon viewing express lane, people never really noticed the roadsigns that the stalled "choose lefters" and "choose righters" obsessed upon, leaving the express laners to wonder why the "road not taken" crew are still bitching about the road sign at mile marker 98.

To pull out something I said on Daytime TWOP (and to change the analogy to an entirely different set if inanimate objects):

In response to this post:
[The Show] is sort of like a very well-baked cake that somehow still doesn't quite taste right. At least in my opinion. I know the show is well-constructed, and I know it's better than anything else in daytime, but I don't think the show needed to take the story turns they've taken in the past 6 months.

I wrote:
I think there's certain bit of it that is a matter of preference as opposed to whether or not it's well-made. {...}To go with the cake analogy. It may be a well-baked dark German Chocolate cake, but maybe you were wanting carrot cake or expecting milk chocolate icing on yellow cake or you prefer Red Velvet. You may be unhappy with the German Chocolate and think it tastes weird, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad German Chocolate (nor does it mean you're wrong in being unhappy you got German Chocolate when you don't like it. {The writer} didn't consult fans about what kind of cake to bake. Personally, I rather dislike German Chocolate cake, but that's a matter of preference not a critical judgment.)

To bring this full circle and the linked discussion regarding the comics, I don't think people expressing doubt that Joss will explore Spike's connection to Buffy is purely a matter of cynicism or bitterness. I think it's also a matter of observation. After a while, you learn that Joss has a preference for German Chocolate Cake. And, though we may want Red Velvet, and may think his purchasing chocolate means he still has the option to make Red Velvet, it doesn't mean that people are reacting bitterly when they say that Joss is probably making another German Chocolate Cake. Joss likes German Chocolate. And Joss is entitled to like whatever cake he likes. But it's also fair to suspect, due to his preferences, that he's making German Chocolate. And, if we have a hankering for Red Velvet, maybe we aren't interested in another German Chocolate cake. If you like German Chocolate, then eat up. Enjoy! If, however, you still want Red Velvet, you may be better served to bake your own.

I'm just sayin...

sueworld2003 linked to this conversation yesterday. Now, I've made my feelings clear about possible plot twists in the comics (and I just saw that I didn't comment on most of the responses in my linked post. I'm sorry! I don't know what was going on in my life at that point, but I didn't mean to ignore anyone. My bad). Anyway, what intrigued me in the current conversation wasn't anything in regards to the comics. It was the question posed in the debate about whether viewing BtVS in a marathon Buffyfest leads to a different reaction than having watched the episodes as they aired. ( Maybe I should amend that to "having watched and been involved in fandom" as it aired. ) In short, my answer is, yeah, I think it does.

Personally, I enjoy marathon watching of seasons and/or shows. I watched all of Seasons 1 & 2 of "Deadwood" that way. All of Season 1 "Rome" that way. All of Seasons 1 & 2 of "The Tudors" that way. And all of "Band of Brothers" that way. I even watched roughly half of "Farscape" in that manner. It's fun to watch a show all in one fell swoop. Cliffhangers are a hell of a lot easier when you don't have to wait six months to find out what happens next. There's nothing wrong with watching a show back to back to back. In fact there's a great deal to recommend it. However, I do think that watching a show in that manner is by its nature different than watching a series in the long, drawn-out method complete with sweeps and summer and winter hiatuses. There's a different pace, and that pace changes the way that we experience what we view.

I have always suspected that Season 6 BtVS would play better in marathon viewing than in the way it actually aired (though I've never had the masochistic need to watch it in a marathon). I suspect in marathon viewing that the season of depression doesn't feel as long. With watching in marathon you have, what? A few days of depression to watch? In 'real time' viewing of Season 6, it was eight or nine months of unrelenting depression. The faux epiphanies probably aren't as soul-killing when relief is a disk away. Watching in real time, it was easy to believe that this time the epiphany might stick... only it didn't. And after the third or fourth non-stick epiphany over the course of several months, it's somewhat more understandable to have the urge to see someone to yell at Buffy to get the hell over it, already! It had gone on more than long enough.

I remember quite well the minor implosion of fandom (and the tanking of the ratings) with "Hells Bells". It was like, if they could make Xander and Anya's comedic pairing into a thing of depression, then what in the hell was left? Exacerbating the situation was the fact that even as "Hells Bells" aired, spoilers for "Seeing Red" were out. That one-two punch proved too much for a lot of people. Ratings never really recovered. Kitten Jihad followed. And Spike fans were faced with... ::shudder:: At the "Hells Bells" juncture, not only was there no light left in the show, but also spoilers indicated that things were only going to get worse for the forseeable future, which at that time was three or four months! No wonder the fandom went batshit crazy. (ETA: And on further thought, another factor in viewing may be the real world in addition to show pacing. I'm sure that the dark pall of Season 6 probably felt more dark and less bearable due to the the fact that it was airing during the aftermath of 9/11 {I particularly remember the qualms I felt watching the Glory tower collapse a mere few weeks after the Twin Towers collapse.} In light of the general real-world atmosphere at that period, the fact that the fandom went insane doesn't even seem surprising.)

Time definitely impacts the way that we experience something.

But it isn't about time, or, rather it isn't just about time. I think it's partially about expectations. Time plays into expectations. When you're given an episode that is followed by a two month break, you (and fandom at large) then obsess on that the episode. Elements in those episodes (eye of botox, there is a 'vessel', it eats you from the bottom, etc) tend to take on an importance in that negative space that they probably would not have had the next episode been a DVD menu choice away.

I think when watching a series via DVD, it's easier to simply follow the story that is told. When watching, and involved in a fandom, during 'real time' seasons we're more aware of -- and more likely to mentally explore -- the roads not taken. And because it's real time, because we don't know whether that's the road that the show will take, we ponder all roads somewhat equally and pick the one that most suits us. Then, if the show chooses a different road, disappointment is bound to happen. Real-time viewers don't have foreknowledge, and sometimes canon writer paths only look inevitable due to hindsight, hindsight based on the cumulative choices canon made, as opposed to the ones they could have made. Episodes, when viewed in quick succession, can give an impression of inevitability that slower-paced extended viewing didn't give.

One reason I've been thinking about this isn't the BtVS conversation. While over on the OLTL TWOP board recently, I've noticed some clear divides in fans. There are definite differences based on what stories/characters/directions people are invested in. People who are quite invested in one character and in one specific trajectory for that character(or any character. There's more than one character/fan group who have this issue) are understandably bothered if the show goes a different route. And given the years long duration of characters and stories, there are fans with one hell of a lot of investment in a certain trajectory and thus are pretty intractable as far as what's "acceptable" to them.

Ages ago rahirah discussed how fandom views Spike. How even Spike fans view Spike in a wide range of ways. And the degree to which "our Spike" overlaps the view of someone else's Spike or someone's fanfic Spike probably has a great deal to do with our experience of the fic and what we perceive to be "in" or "out" of character. (I know I'm mangling what rahirah wrote. I hope I managed to express the gist of it, though). There is subjective latitude in the viewing of a character. In the Spike fandom I've definitely learned that there's a wide range of views of Spike. And, even when people agree on aspects of his personality, what specific trait comes first for one person as opposed to another still differs. That degree of separation also exists between fandom and canon writers. What may be most important to me, or to my corner of fandom may have only cursory common ground with the way that the canon writers view it. In short, what's most crucial to me, may not be very important (or important at all) to the writer.

Back to the OLTL TWOP stuff, there are people quite unhappy about the direction of one character because they were quite invested in him being mostly a human being (rather than a pathological narcissist and probable sociopath). I understand (God, being a Spike fan boy do I understand) being invested in a 'redemptive' type plot. However, I think anyone with any objectivity regarding the OLTL character has to admit that while it may not have been the direction that they wanted the character to go, it's really damn difficult to come up with an argument that the character couldn't go down this path just because it's an unpopular one.

There is a difference in preference and "out of character" or "bad storytelling". It's perfectly possible to take the basic characterization and choose left instead of right. . . I just may not want the story to go "right". And, if it does, I may be haunted by the road not taken, perhaps convinced that I prefer the road not taken. Perhaps I even feel that the road not taken would have been the better road. And, because I watched in real time, I invested a lot of thought in what that road might be like, in where it might lead, and then for the show to chose a different road, going to an entirely different destination, I may end up wondering why the canon writer chose that road.

I don't think marathon viewing (as opposed to real-time viewing) leads to as many pauses at the junctures of diverging paths. You speed right past the four way stop, going with the road the writer chose, barely aware of the alternatives that flew by your window. Real-time viewing frequently left fandom at a stop light for-freaking-ever, allowing everyone on the damn bus to have their say as to merits of one road versus another, allowing people to become personally attached to "choose left" or "choose right," and leaving them screaming about road signs that led them to their particular road choice. Meanwhile, in the marathon viewing express lane, people never really noticed the roadsigns that the stalled "choose lefters" and "choose righters" obsessed upon, leaving the express laners to wonder why the "road not taken" crew are still bitching about the road sign at mile marker 98.

To pull out something I said on Daytime TWOP (and to change the analogy to an entirely different set if inanimate objects):

In response to this post:
[The Show] is sort of like a very well-baked cake that somehow still doesn't quite taste right. At least in my opinion. I know the show is well-constructed, and I know it's better than anything else in daytime, but I don't think the show needed to take the story turns they've taken in the past 6 months.

I wrote:
I think there's certain bit of it that is a matter of preference as opposed to whether or not it's well-made. {...}To go with the cake analogy. It may be a well-baked dark German Chocolate cake, but maybe you were wanting carrot cake or expecting milk chocolate icing on yellow cake or you prefer Red Velvet. You may be unhappy with the German Chocolate and think it tastes weird, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad German Chocolate (nor does it mean you're wrong in being unhappy you got German Chocolate when you don't like it. {The writer} didn't consult fans about what kind of cake to bake. Personally, I rather dislike German Chocolate cake, but that's a matter of preference not a critical judgment.)

To bring this full circle and the linked discussion regarding the comics, I don't think people expressing doubt that Joss will explore Spike's connection to Buffy is purely a matter of cynicism or bitterness. I think it's also a matter of observation. After a while, you learn that Joss has a preference for German Chocolate Cake. And, though we may want Red Velvet, and may think his purchasing chocolate means he still has the option to make Red Velvet, it doesn't mean that people are reacting bitterly when they say that Joss is probably making another German Chocolate Cake. Joss likes German Chocolate. And Joss is entitled to like whatever cake he likes. But it's also fair to suspect, due to his preferences, that he's making German Chocolate. And, if we have a hankering for Red Velvet, maybe we aren't interested in another German Chocolate cake. If you like German Chocolate, then eat up. Enjoy! If, however, you still want Red Velvet, you may be better served to bake your own.

I'm just sayin...

Trying to think through fanfic, I've found myself thinking a great deal about Spike (and Buffy) again and -- as always -- trying to figure out what makes each of them tick. And, the ever interesting thing is that they are both complex enough and contradictory enough to take that kind of overthought and analyzation. There's no set answer, just interpretations, which is cool for fanficcing.

Anyway in response to shapinglight's current post elisilinked to this Post-Damage essay  by the_royal_anna.   It's worth a read.  I found it quite interesting.

When writing fanfic, do you ever have a character moment stuck in your head that you simply cannot resolve, and you're not sure why it's there in the first place? What's particularly strange about this detail is that it's part of a backstory which will quite probably never find its way into the actual fic (at least not in written form), it's just... it's in my head and I can't figure it out. And, what I did figure out isn't what I had initially intended.

I'm talking in circles aren't I?

Basically, while working on my current WIP (yeah, I am still working on it) I developed a backstory for Spike (and one for Buffy as well) spanning the years post-NFA to the point where this fic takes place (which happens to be 17 years after Chosen.) Part of Spike's backstory is that he fell in love with someone. I find it difficult to believe that a romantic like Spike wouldn't fall for someone in 17 years, and my initial intention was that he had found a bit of happiness with this someone.

Yeah, it didn't work out that way.

For whatever reason that the mind works the way that it does, the backstory went in its own direction and in my head the woman turned out to be a suicidal empath. I don't know why. And that's the thing I've been trying to work out. Why does Spike fall for women with a few screws loose?

I'm not talking about my vague backstory idea, I'm thinking about his canon love affairs. Dru's screws were falling out all over the floor, and then there's Buffy. I realize that her screws weren't completely out when he began falling for her, but by the time the two of them connected, Buffy had lost several screws and was in the process of losing more. In fact, that's probably one of the few areas of common ground between Dru and Buffy (that and neither of them treated Spike particularly well even if on some level they both loved him). What is it in Spike that leads him to loving women who are spectacularly messed up? Both women were at sea when they came together with Spike. Speeding past Dru's tortured backstory, in the scene immediately preceding her choice to vamp William, she was complaining of being lonely and lost, searching for a knight for her bats in the belfry princess. And we all know that Buffy was drowning in a sea of confusion when she began using Spike for comfort. And, like many drowning victims, she latched onto her lifeline, nearly pushing under the person swimming to help her. I think that's why my imaginary backstory took the unintentional turn that it did. Subconsciously, I hooked into that common ground between Dru and Buffy, even though this isn't really about Dru and Buffy. It's about Spike. What do these loves say about Spike? I don't have a grip on this idea or what it means. But it must mean something in my Spike characterization as it's apparently bubbling away somewhere in my subconscious.

Any ideas? What was Spike's affinity with screwed-up women?

Bueller?

When writing fanfic, do you ever have a character moment stuck in your head that you simply cannot resolve, and you're not sure why it's there in the first place? What's particularly strange about this detail is that it's part of a backstory which will quite probably never find its way into the actual fic (at least not in written form), it's just... it's in my head and I can't figure it out. And, what I did figure out isn't what I had initially intended.

I'm talking in circles aren't I?

Basically, while working on my current WIP (yeah, I am still working on it) I developed a backstory for Spike (and one for Buffy as well) spanning the years post-NFA to the point where this fic takes place (which happens to be 17 years after Chosen.) Part of Spike's backstory is that he fell in love with someone. I find it difficult to believe that a romantic like Spike wouldn't fall for someone in 17 years, and my initial intention was that he had found a bit of happiness with this someone.

Yeah, it didn't work out that way.

For whatever reason that the mind works the way that it does, the backstory went in its own direction and in my head the woman turned out to be a suicidal empath. I don't know why. And that's the thing I've been trying to work out. Why does Spike fall for women with a few screws loose?

I'm not talking about my vague backstory idea, I'm thinking about his canon love affairs. Dru's screws were falling out all over the floor, and then there's Buffy. I realize that her screws weren't completely out when he began falling for her, but by the time the two of them connected, Buffy had lost several screws and was in the process of losing more. In fact, that's probably one of the few areas of common ground between Dru and Buffy (that and neither of them treated Spike particularly well even if on some level they both loved him). What is it in Spike that leads him to loving women who are spectacularly messed up? Both women were at sea when they came together with Spike. Speeding past Dru's tortured backstory, in the scene immediately preceding her choice to vamp William, she was complaining of being lonely and lost, searching for a knight for her bats in the belfry princess. And we all know that Buffy was drowning in a sea of confusion when she began using Spike for comfort. And, like many drowning victims, she latched onto her lifeline, nearly pushing under the person swimming to help her. I think that's why my imaginary backstory took the unintentional turn that it did. Subconsciously, I hooked into that common ground between Dru and Buffy, even though this isn't really about Dru and Buffy. It's about Spike. What do these loves say about Spike? I don't have a grip on this idea or what it means. But it must mean something in my Spike characterization as it's apparently bubbling away somewhere in my subconscious.

Any ideas? What was Spike's affinity with screwed-up women?

Bueller?

Back from the beach. The weather was nice (though quite, quite hot), and I got lots of sleep so, all in all, not a bad vacation. Hope everyone had a nice 4th.

On more fannish matters:

* I think being on vacation makes returning to wank seem all the more frustrating. There's apparently been Dr Who wank (and this was even without my going to TWOP where wank is ubiquitous). My reaction to the Fandom_wank wank was mostly that I know the show is flawed, but can't we just enjoy something every now and then without picking it to death? (And I really didn't like how a Fandom_Wank commenter brought in Buffy and Spike. Geez, I know that Spuffy destroyed television as we know it, but can we please not bring Spuffy into random, unrelated wanks just so that someone can bitch about Spike, Season 6 and/or 7, or opinions of people who didn't fall over excusing Buffy's behavior while "in a dark place'? I'm all for discussing BtVS, it's just that dragging BtVS issues into totally unrelated wanks annoys me.)

* In other wankiness, it looks like the AMC board I occasionally frequent has been invaded by new posters that I don't understand. The board is usually devoted to Ryan and Babe hate with the occasional Greenlee and Jonathan hate. That's what people are there for. I don't care for newbies dragging hate of other characters into it. Yeah, I know its hypocritical, but I like my Babe, Ryan, Greenlee, and Jonathan hate pure and unadulterated with hating other characters. Sue me.

* Regarding the Doctor Who finale (the episode not the various wanks)
* Managed to work on my kinkathon story for kellyhk . Kelly, I am working on it. I'm just slow! I'm pretty sure I have a decent hold on the plot of the story that I want to tell. There are details I need to work out, but I finally have some idea of where I'm going. I'm also trying to understand Lindsey McDonald. I want to do him justice and he plays a significant part in the story, but he isn't a character I've written in the past and I feel that I don't understand him all that well.

The frustrating thing with writing is that the story in my head is always better than the story that I put on paper. I can never capture the scenes in my head. I try, but it's never the same. I know we can never be the writer that we wish we could be. That's relatively universal. But putting aside impossible ambitions, it's discouraging to be incapable of capturing one's own ideas in a satisfactory way.

Still, at this point, I'm simply glad that I finally found a plot.

For fanfic purposes, I'm trying to puzzle out a post-apocalyptic BtVS/AtS world.  

A few hypothetical discussion questions:

* What would the world look like in 20 years if The First got what it wanted? The First wanted to take over, to make the world... what, exactly?  What did The First actually want? Control?  Anarchy?  Worshippers?  Everyone as its puppets with the sublimation of free will, Sleeper-like zombies, Andrew-like betrayers?  What?  We assume the world would be full of evil and populated with a Hellmouth quotient of Cro-Mag vampires. But what does The First get out of it? With all of its yak-yak-yak, what kind of world would The First be intent on creating 20 years down the road?   The First would probably be more defined by magic/supernatural, I guess.  What would the world in the The First's image be?

* Another question.  What would the world look like 20 years after Not Fade Away if Wolfram and Hart and the Circle got what they  wanted?  A world controlled by corrupt lawyers, what would that be?  A different sort of apocalypse from most, I would guess.  They are corporate evil and a Demon Mafia.   What would that world look like?  What would that apocalypse boil down to?  I tend to assume that the bad guys really don't want the destruction of the world so much as to take the world over and exploit its resources to... uh... what?  (I'd fail at evil overlord school).  But what would the world look like in 20 years if Wolfram & Hart had won?

* If both The First and W&H/Circle are at work, would they share similar goals or would the two be at odds with one another (bullies can have personality conflicts with one another, after all).  Could these folks work together?  Is it a fragile truce, dividing the world into their own provinces, or two enemies united by a common goal?  If The First and W&H were at war, what would that mean? Is it chaotic evil vs. ordered evil?  If they were in concert, would that mean something else?

* In a First vs. W&H Battle Royale, who would win?  Or would they never go against each other?  Could they be provoked into going against each other because they have fundamentally different goals, or is it simply We're Evil.  Evil Rawks.  So... yay?

* What's left of humanity in all of this?  What about lower innocuous demon orders such as Lorne and Clem?  Vampires (not the ones with souls)?

I guess I'm trying to do a Sims game exercise, mentally building a world, or actually theorize about several, try them on for size and see which is most intriguing.  It feels that a post-apocalyptic world should be based on the desires of the villain in question (although it could be augmented by human self-destruction -- global warming, religious wars, etc).

So what would the world be if The First could construct it in its desired image?  What about a W&H based world?  Any thoughts?  Ideas?  Theories?  ...Wild speculation?  

Help

For fanfic purposes, I'm trying to puzzle out a post-apocalyptic BtVS/AtS world.  

A few hypothetical discussion questions:

* What would the world look like in 20 years if The First got what it wanted? The First wanted to take over, to make the world... what, exactly?  What did The First actually want? Control?  Anarchy?  Worshippers?  Everyone as its puppets with the sublimation of free will, Sleeper-like zombies, Andrew-like betrayers?  What?  We assume the world would be full of evil and populated with a Hellmouth quotient of Cro-Mag vampires. But what does The First get out of it? With all of its yak-yak-yak, what kind of world would The First be intent on creating 20 years down the road?   The First would probably be more defined by magic/supernatural, I guess.  What would the world in the The First's image be?

* Another question.  What would the world look like 20 years after Not Fade Away if Wolfram and Hart and the Circle got what they  wanted?  A world controlled by corrupt lawyers, what would that be?  A different sort of apocalypse from most, I would guess.  They are corporate evil and a Demon Mafia.   What would that world look like?  What would that apocalypse boil down to?  I tend to assume that the bad guys really don't want the destruction of the world so much as to take the world over and exploit its resources to... uh... what?  (I'd fail at evil overlord school).  But what would the world look like in 20 years if Wolfram & Hart had won?

* If both The First and W&H/Circle are at work, would they share similar goals or would the two be at odds with one another (bullies can have personality conflicts with one another, after all).  Could these folks work together?  Is it a fragile truce, dividing the world into their own provinces, or two enemies united by a common goal?  If The First and W&H were at war, what would that mean? Is it chaotic evil vs. ordered evil?  If they were in concert, would that mean something else?

* In a First vs. W&H Battle Royale, who would win?  Or would they never go against each other?  Could they be provoked into going against each other because they have fundamentally different goals, or is it simply We're Evil.  Evil Rawks.  So... yay?

* What's left of humanity in all of this?  What about lower innocuous demon orders such as Lorne and Clem?  Vampires (not the ones with souls)?

I guess I'm trying to do a Sims game exercise, mentally building a world, or actually theorize about several, try them on for size and see which is most intriguing.  It feels that a post-apocalyptic world should be based on the desires of the villain in question (although it could be augmented by human self-destruction -- global warming, religious wars, etc).

So what would the world be if The First could construct it in its desired image?  What about a W&H based world?  Any thoughts?  Ideas?  Theories?  ...Wild speculation?  

Help

Just finished Stephen King's On Writing and I give it a big thumbs up. I loved it and would rec it to any fanfic writer, aspiring writer, or anyone who simply likes to talk about and to think about stories.

The book, for the most part, isn't a 'how to' on writing. Two-thirds of the novel is truly a memoir, starting with King's childhood and discussing his love of books, comics, and movies. He relates anecdotes from his life such as going to see the movie The Pit and the Pendulum (which he admits had only the smallest resemblance to the work by Poe) and being so excited that he rushed home to write... well, they didn't call it fanfic in the 1950s, but it's what we would know as fanfic.

He discusses meeting his wife in a college poetry class and falling in love with her through her work. He goes on to tell how he worked his way through college and how one of his jobs was as a janitor at a high school. That job had him noticing that there were shower curtains in the girls locker room but not in the boys to which his fellow janitor mused that young girls were probably more shy than boys. When naively asking what the dispensers on the wall were, he was told they were tampons... and anyone even vaguely familiar with King's work is aware of where this is going.

He explains that it was this incident that inspired Carrie, his first novel. He goes on to say that he doesn't like Carrie White. In fact, he admits to not liking any of the characters in the book and that after writing the first hundred or so pages, he put the story aside believing that it wasn't good and that he couldn't finish it. His wife found the novel, found something in it, and encouraged him to go on.

He discusses two girls he had known in high school, girls who were outcasts. As he describes them, you see how the people he knew informed the character of Carrie.

This is the way that he discusses writing. He discusses the process he has gone through and the things he has learned about writing while going through that process.( Read more... )Late in the book, King reveals that he had been writing On Writing when he was (infamously) run over and nearly killed in 1999. The last section of the book deals with the accident, describing it and his recovery, how writing played a part in his recovery, and ending the book with an opus to the love of writing.

The book is relatively short, straight forward, and lacking in pretension. It's as much autobiography as book review (both his own and other famous writers as he discusses everything from David Mamet to John Grisham, Harper Lee to J.K. Rowling), and a book on how to write. King himself comes across as endearing through his much professed love for his wife and children as well as his admissions that he doesn't remember writing "Cujo" and that there are stories he's produced that he's embarassed about. At the end of the day, this is one of the better books I've read in a while. Well worth the $8 for the paperback.

While reading the reviews for Joss's Season 8 comics and this thread on shipping over in 

germaine_pet's journal, I've found myself thinking about the post-show Whedonverse and where (in my head) the characters sort of ended up.  I'm not talking about fanfic.  I can spin many a fanfic post-BtVS/post-AtS in my head.  I can enjoy a ton of different alternatives in others fanfics.  Many, many outcomes are possible. . . but I don't think they're all equally likely.  Besides, most fanfics center around a "what would happen if this happened" plot bunny.  And, again, many, many things are possible.